Train drivers will finally have access to toilets

[styles]

It shouldn't have taken the increase in women drivers to make this happen - should have been standing up to get respect (it is what this is) on this a long time ago.

I had wondered if there was a gender motive to the policy.

I remember reading a chapter in Caroline Criado-Perez's Invisible Women on toilets, and it's shocking how often building planners allocate 50% of toilet space to male and 50% to female, despite women going to the toilet more frequently, taking longer when they do go, needing more room due to lack of urinals, and of course the weakened bladders after pregnancy, space needed for sanitary item disposal (though I'm of the belief these should be in male toilets also anyway), etc.

No doubt the status quo has been maintained for so long because female voices haven't been heard or haven't been involved in the decision-making at a sufficient level.

For the avoidance of doubt - I'm not denying this isn't a problem for males also. Just that our toilet needs are different

 

[43066]

One of the most unionised professions, that holds strikes for pretty much everything,

Completely false. I’ve been in the industry a decade and only been on strike during the national dispute.

Good result by ASLEF, and long overdue.

 

[357]

Completely false. I’ve been in the industry a decade and only been on strike during the national dispute.

Good result by ASLEF, and long overdue.

I've been here for 15 years and never been on strike! The first year of the national dispute my TOC was covered by an existing agreement, and then I moved to a TOC that wasn't part of the dispute.

 

[Wyrleybart]

There have been multiple campaigns from multiple unions over the last 20 years regarding facilities, cab comfort, and more.

ASLEF don't employ drivers, they cater to their membership and what their members want.

It's only natural that as more female members join that issues that affect females more will be brought to the top of the list.

Unfortunately, join the club!

Or actually, might it be that female drivers actually don't just put up with dirty, grubby, smelly facilities and want somewhere more habitable to do their business. I go back to the 1990s where there was just one female driver amongst 134 male colleagues, and she was a bit of a tomboy anyway. I thought several times how a female goes out into the wild on a ballast train on a saturday night, provided with just hygienic wipes by the company.

The railway has moved forward massively since then

 

[357]

Or actually, might it be that female drivers actually don't just put up with dirty, grubby, smelly facilities and want somewhere more habitable to do their business.

That's exactly what I said.

 

[fishwomp]

Completely false. I’ve been in the industry a decade and only been on strike during the national dispute.

Good result by ASLEF, and long overdue.

I should have said 'industries' and not profession - until recently ASLEF played a softer approach and known how to played its cards well. I did sense a change and hardening of stance when Mick Whelan started competing for airtime with Mick Lynch.

 

[Starmill]

On rural lines with long journeys there's almost always time for the train crew to use the facilities on the train while the train is stopped at a station. For example St Bees, Llandrindod, Dingwall etc. There's almost always a few minutes but it wouldn't be a problem if a train left one or two minutes late to allow this.

All the more reason it's important to ensure toilets are in good working order and don't dump waste onto the track.

 

[43066]

I've been here for 15 years and never been on strike! The first year of the national dispute my TOC was covered by an existing agreement, and then I moved to a TOC that wasn't part of the dispute.

I think your employer is similar to my new one, there’s a sensible relationship between management and union, with real jeopardy on both sides, and things are invariably resolved before escalating to the dispute stage (admittedly the French side is a little different, they like a strike ).

I should have said 'industries' and not profession - until recently ASLEF played a softer approach and known how to played its cards well. I did sense a change and hardening of stance when Mick Whelan started competing for airtime with Mick Lynch.

I’m honestly not sure that’s true viewed from the inside. It’s easy to generalise about an entire industry, but there are plenty of railway staff with many years experience who have not been on strike (admittedly most were during the main national dispute, but that was an unusual circumstance).

 

[choochoochoo]

Interesting - I didn't know that was part of the agreement.

Perhaps if the TOCs put more effort into keeping the toilets clean throughout the journey and not just cleaning at terminus stations, then that attitude may have been different.

I’d always told my control I refuse to use the toilet on a train if I needed an emergency PNB.

Health and Safety at work states employer needs to provide clean facilities. Never seen a clean toilet on a train in passenger service.

 

[Starmill]

I’d always told my control I refuse to use the toilet on a train if I needed an emergency PNB.

Health and Safety at work states employer needs to provide clean facilities. Never seen a clean toilet on a train in passenger service.

Some operators do clean their loos after every trip. Avanti generally mop and wipe, plus top up if needed, every loo at Euston. But obviously that's far from every train.

 

[spp]

Slightly off topic but sometimes passengers don’t have them!

Currently on a Liverpool to Birmingham train thats had to have a 5 minute toilet break at Stafford as theres not one working toilet on board. It’s one of the new 5 car LNW trains too!

 

[Deepgreen]

I should have said 'industries' and not profession - until recently ASLEF played a softer approach and known how to played its cards well. I did sense a change and hardening of stance when Mick Whelan started competing for airtime with Mick Lynch.

Still not true, though, despite what the overwhelmingly right-wing press in the UK would have us believe.

 

[nolypops83]

As a railway newbie, I'm shocked but at the same time not surprised it's taken so long. Great news all round!

As an aside, I used to work in a call centre, and they timed your toilet breaks. If they went on too long over the course of the day, you would get questioned by your manager in the middle of the office. One of my team members had one kidney, and they didn't make an allowance for that. So it's not just the railway that lacked basic human dignity at work.

 

[Deepgreen]

I’d always told my control I refuse to use the toilet on a train if I needed an emergency PNB.

Health and Safety at work states employer needs to provide clean facilities. Never seen a clean toilet on a train in passenger service.

You have been very much at odds with me then as most that I use are pretty clean (at least on entry!).

 

[Harpo]

Still not true, though, despite what the overwhelmingly right-wing press in the UK would have us believe.

The right wing press (AKA all bar Mirror & Guardian) are driven by big business who have zero interest in rights for anyone other than big business.

At the other extreme there’s a 19 year old in our family who got nominated for ‘management training’ at a very well known fast food outlet and passed. The new uniform’s been supplied and they’ve been encouraged to wear it. However the email acknowledging their progression has yet to arrive. So, they do the new role at their old rate of pay for fear of rocking the boat. The 50p per hour (yes!!) increase awaits that email.

ASLEF & RMT do a fine job of avoiding this sort of abusive employment practice but don’t expect print media to share that view.

 

[dk1]

Interesting - I didn't know that was part of the agreement.

Perhaps if the TOCs put more effort into keeping the toilets clean throughout the journey and not just cleaning at terminus stations, then that attitude may have been different.

Even though our toilets on GA trains (Stadler at least) are very good and our cleaners do an excellent job, onboard toilets are not recognised as a PNB point and therefore not allowed on traincrew diagrams. They are however very welcome in and emergency

 

[6Gman]

Even though our toilets on GA trains (Stadler at least) are very good and our cleaners do an excellent job, onboard toilets are not recognised as a PNB point and therefore not allowed on traincrew diagrams. They are however very welcome in and emergency

I think this is an important point.

OK in an emergency (outwith the diagrammed break) but a PNB is not just about the physical opportunity to urinate or defecate!

 

[dk1]

I think this is an important point.

OK in an emergency (outwith the diagrammed break) but a PNB is not just about the physical opportunity to urinate or defecate!

Of course. It’s about comfort, warmth, an area to heat/consume food, and of course to escape passengers.

 

[trainophile]

I’d always told my control I refuse to use the toilet on a train if I needed an emergency PNB.

Health and Safety at work states employer needs to provide clean facilities. Never seen a clean toilet on a train in passenger service.

Good enough for the fare paying passengers though?

 

[kallyvintage]

I am very tolerant of hunger, as in, it doesn't affect me as much as it tends to do other people - I've never been 'Hangry'

However unlike some people who are seemingly like Camels, I find needing the loo terribly distracting, which isn't good when driving trains. Several times a month I end up speaking to the guard to tell them I'm going to use the loo at the next stop, as for me sometimes the booked PNB isn't enough. Any minor delay pales into insignificance if you consider the alternative of me missing a signal or making a mistake when distracted, and its my train, so sod it.

As a male I'm happy to use even the messiest of train loo's for a wee, but more often than not, once I have stopped and got out of the cab someone who's just joined the train shuffles into the toilet right in front of you (& you just KNOW they are going to take forever!) - especially annoying as 3 out of 4 stations have bogs.

 

[43066]

Good enough for the fare paying passengers though?

It shouldn’t be. But I’ve also refused to use public conveniences as a driver.

As an aside, I used to work in a call centre, and they timed your toilet breaks. If they went on too long over the course of the day, you would get questioned by your manager in the middle of the office. One of my team members had one kidney, and they didn't make an allowance for that. So it's not just the railway that lacked basic human dignity at work.

Forget all that. You’re in a very different environment now. You’re a respected and valued employee, and what you say goes.

 

[QueensCurve]

More likely, I can imagine a PA announcement: "Would passengers please leave the toilet free until we have left [insert station of need] as it is needed for traincrew purposes!"
Or the Guard gets a message and locks it temporarily until the driver has had relief! (add your own scatalogical jokes...)

in the Reverend Spooner's diary the next station to Letersfield on the Portssmouth is convenient.

 

[ExRes]

Of course sometimes you're fighting against your own 'colleagues', stopping on the Up platform at Wellingborough I left the power car to use the toilet in the first coach, I told the platform dispatcher what I was doing and the TM was fully aware of me getting into the train, he then deliberately ignored the dispatcher, locked the doors and presumably gave two on the buzzer, what can you do with a self important and selfish moron like that?

 

[dk1]

Good enough for the fare paying passengers though?

Fare paying passengers and staff agreements have no connection.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

As a railway newbie, I'm shocked but at the same time not surprised it's taken so long. Great news all round!

As an aside, I used to work in a call centre, and they timed your toilet breaks. If they went on too long over the course of the day, you would get questioned by your manager in the middle of the office. One of my team members had one kidney, and they didn't make an allowance for that. So it's not just the railway that lacked basic human dignity at work.

I’d tell them where to stick their job and hateful staffing policies. Come join us on the railway and get treated like a human being.

 

[Mawkie]

I'm going to sound like a right so and so... But I'm actually astonished the agreement is only for a toilet every 4 hours!

Am I alone in thinking this is outrageous?

(It seems I'm spoiled by my Cockfosters, Arnos Grove, Wood Green, Acton Town, Hatton Cross, Heathrow T4 or T5 staff toilets!)

 

[Nammer]

I spent 20 years from 2003 to 2023 doing Train Presentation and can assure that every on-train toilet i cleaned was left in the condition that i would expect to find it in, when i wanted to use it! It is quite offensive when your fellow TOC colleagues talk down your job. One of the reasons i left the railway.

 

[43066]

I'm going to sound like a right so and so... But I'm actually astonished the agreement is only for a toilet every 4 hours!

Am I alone in thinking this is outrageous?

(It seems I'm spoiled by my Cockfosters, Arnos Grove, Wood Green, Acton Town, Hatton Cross, Heathrow T4 or T5 staff toilets!)

You don’t have someone knocking on the door bringing you a brew and a loo in every carriage. You aren’t spoilt mate - I don’t know how you bloody do it, but you deserve credit for it!

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Health and Safety at work states employer needs to provide clean facilities. Never seen a clean toilet on a train in passenger service.

Should’ve seen my previous employer then (non-railway!), no toilet facilities, and breaks were just a myth.

A lot of people on the railway do not realise how lucky they are with a strong union to back them up with basic legal requirements!

 

[Hairyspotter]

Whilst this is very welcome news which I wholly support, I fear for my TOC the effect could well be detrimental due to the vagaries of diagramming and timetabling.

At the location & TOC where I work, we currently have an agree max 4h30 continuous driving, with one route having regular out and back workings which come in at somewhere in the region of 4h15 or so. The one agreed PNB location other than at the originating station is approximately half way, however the TOC only runs an hourly service, so I can pretty much guarantee that what will happen in future is that the diagrams will be split to step back an hour at the middle location PNB point, and effectively the diagrams will be lengthened by that hour as the full turn extended by an hour will still fall within the maximum agreed day length, albeit close to that length with the added hour. And all the employer will respond is "well, your union agreed the max 4 hours driving"

 

[357]

Whilst this is very welcome news which I wholly support, I fear for my TOC the effect could well be detrimental due to the vagaries of diagramming and timetabling.

At the location & TOC where I work, we currently have an agree max 4h30 continuous driving, with one route having regular out and back workings which come in at somewhere in the region of 4h15 or so. The one agreed PNB location other than at the originating station is approximately half way, however the TOC only runs an hourly service, so I can pretty much guarantee that what will happen in future is that the diagrams will be split to step back an hour at the middle location PNB point, and effectively the diagrams will be lengthened by that hour as the full turn extended by an hour will still fall within the maximum agreed day length, albeit close to that length with the added hour. And all the employer will respond is "well, your union agreed the max 4 hours driving"

Nobody is saying it needs to be a full PNB from what I can see - just enough time to use the facilities.

Personally what you describe should be seen as a win - an extra hour when you're not driving a train knocked off your weekly hours. Every 2 weeks, that's a day you're not coming to work.