Why are Class 700s considered unpopular?

[jammmmmsssssss]

At least in a 387 it is possible to sit in the seat as designed, which whilst not exactly comfortable does encourage a good posture - those who do a lot of gym work will notice this, but it does mean having to sit up very tall, which isn’t what one always wants to do having had a day at work and perhaps wanting to chill out a bit on the train.

However on a 700, it is much more awkward to sit properly because the seat is too close to the side of the train, and in particular because of the ducting in the foot space. So in a 700 you end up with either the legs or, worse, the whole body, as a funny angle, which is most uncomfortable. First isn’t so bad because of the extra spacing, though the ducting is still a bit intrusive.

I've never seen the duct as a problem. Declassified first on a 700 is nice (and I almost always get it) but if I can't get it the standard is fine. On a 387, there's no declassified first and the seats are just harder and it feels way busier than a 700 with the same number of people

 

[Magdalia]

I would imagine that load-journey time profiles (if such a things exist) are quite similar for both the metro and the main railheads of the outer suburban services

Data does exist, and it is here:

https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/loadings/gbr/

Details of passenger loadings for services over Newtork Rail infrastructure

The source is given as:

Data contained in this system is provided by Network Rail's Strategic Rail Analysis Model (SRAM) and contains public sector information licensed under the Open Government License v3.0. Records are estimated averages, taken over a period of weekdays during the summer 2024 timetable. Whilst this model provides a largely reliable means of recording passenger activity, it is known to contain discrepancies. Please use only as a guide.

However, the data for these two trains does not match:

The capacity issue is with journeys that are only served by Thameslink, and especially south of St Albans City where the DfT has recently declared that the two 'busiest' in England are TL services Bedford as follows:
07:30 to Brighton (9R07) which has 84% over seating capacity from St Albans City to St Pancras
07:15 to Three Bridges (9T81) which has 84% over seating capacity from St Albans City to St Pancras

On the other hand, I have checked a few trains that I use/see* quite frequently and the numbers look only slightly lower than I would expect.

(* when waiting for departures at Cambridge I have occasionally done counts of passengers alighting from arrivals)

If the data is to be believed the part of Thameslink where loadings do not have a significant tail at the journey extremity is East Croydon-Gatwick-Brighton.

 

[Vexed]

If the data is to be believed the part of Thameslink where loadings do not have a significant tail at the journey extremity is East Croydon-Gatwick-Brighton.

I certainly agree with the data here. Thameslink can be very busy heading into Brighton with leisure travel, even outside of the summer months. I don't travel at times to see if there is inward commuting to Brighton. Brighton's a lot busier than Bedford or Peterborough!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Just to show that the duct on the 700s does not push the feet out... I don't normally have my knees that far apart; that was the only way I could get a decent photo of the duct and my feet.

I've ridden several 700s in the last couple of hours and of the instances where both adjacent seats are occupied, only about 5 % of the people have stuck a leg out into the aisle.

It's clearly not an issue for most people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like to put my foot on top of the flat duct. Massively prefer it over smaller sloped ones.

Whether it pushes your foot out depends on your pelvis width.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I just tried that ( never done it before ) and I think I must have longer legs than you as it wasn't very comfortable for me...

 

[Magdalia]

I like to put my foot on top of the flat duct. Massively prefer it over smaller sloped ones.

Way back when the class 700s were new, I recall being told that, after some customer research, the flat duct was a deliberate design feature for this reason.

 

[jon0844]

With many 700s out of use, apparently due to a shortage of parts, does Siemens not get fined when they can't present the required number of units each day? Isn't that the terms of the contract?

 

[hwl]

Which rather begs the question of why on earth the 777s were designed like that in the first place. Presumably this was another case of poor specification by the DfT.

Nothing to do with DfT, a very poor Merseytravel tender.

It later came out in court that no minutes of the tender decision meeting were kept.

The promised overall lower infrastructure modification costs of the Stadler turned out not to exist in practice.

 

[Fincra5]

With many 700s out of use, apparently due to a shortage of parts, does Siemens not get fined when they can't present the required number of units each day? Isn't that the terms of the contract?

They have a contract to provide 'X amount of serviceable units a day', so probably!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nothing to do with DfT, a very poor Merseytravel tender.

It later came out in court that no minutes of the tender decision meeting were kept.

The promised overall lower infrastructure modification costs of the Stadler turned out not to exist in practice.

The main designer of these units posted here for a bit - he came across as rather a "yes man" and didn't take kindly to criticisms of his utterly woefully designed unit, of which he received plenty. He was also active on X if I recall.

 

[bramling]

The main designer of these units posted here for a bit - he came across as rather a "yes man" and didn't take kindly to criticisms of his utterly woefully designed unit, of which he received plenty. He was also active on X if I recall.

I was in Liverpool recently for the first time since the 777s arrived. Must admit I was quite surprised how bad they are. Negative stuff like the door positions, uneven floor layout, seating layout, and slow door sequences was immediately obvious - and the whole atmosphere really did feel like being on a lightweight tram system. Plus the method of operation with the guards being there but doing very little felt bizarre.

 

[AM9]

I was in Liverpool recently for the first time since the 777s arrived. Must admit I was quite surprised how bad they are. Negative stuff like the door positions, uneven floor layout, seating layout, and slow door sequences was immediately obvious - and the whole atmosphere really did feel like being on a lightweight tram system. Plus the method of operation with the guards being there but doing very little felt bizarre.

A 3-car DC Desiro city would have been the sort of crowd buster that Merseyrail needed, - robust yet compact enough for the tunnels. Geared down for northern infrastructure speeds and only a quarter of the traction power needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 3-car DC Desiro city would have been the sort of crowd buster that Merseyrail needed, - robust yet compact enough for the tunnels. Geared down for northern infrastructure speeds and only a quarter of the traction power needed.

Replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...il-have-ordered-instead-of-class-777s.290246/

 

[Failed Unit]

With many 700s out of use, apparently due to a shortage of parts, does Siemens not get fined when they can't present the required number of units each day? Isn't that the terms of the contract?

I believe they do, short term I wonder why they don't swap some diagrams with 379s (I know some interwork with Thameslink but not all). Get rid of more 700s from Great Northern where the dual voltage isn't needed and send them to routes where it is. I bet GTR must be happy that Cambridge - Maidstone never happened, helps them keep the cancellation list lower.

 

[jon0844]

I believe they do, short term I wonder why they don't swap some diagrams with 379s (I know some interwork with Thameslink but not all). Get rid of more 700s from Great Northern where the dual voltage isn't needed and send them to routes where it is. I bet GTR must be happy that Cambridge - Maidstone never happened, helps them keep the cancellation list lower.

I think most people are happy, as even though I want services to the core, I also want some chance of reliability.

There will presumably be a need for some more 700s if they do go ahead and run Sevenoaks to WGC services all day and on Saturday - which doesn't seem to be more than an aspiration at the moment.

 

[Robski]

I believe they do, short term I wonder why they don't swap some diagrams with 379s (I know some interwork with Thameslink but not all).

AIUI it's to do with driver traction knowledge. Some depots/links do not sign 379/387's and given that GN driver diagrams are very complex there is a risk that a swap would result in a driver that does not sign 379's being rostered to drive one. Making a permanent switch wouldn't be easy either as it would involve re-writing a number of driver diagrams to accommodate traction knowledge.

 

[Magdalia]

There will presumably be a need for some more 700s if they do go ahead and run Sevenoaks to WGC services all day and on Saturday

No, more units are not required. The units that work the peak only service get used instead of sitting in the sidings off peak and on Saturdays.

I bet GTR must be happy that Cambridge - Maidstone never happened, helps them keep the cancellation list lower.

Cambridge-Kings Cross still runs, and requires at least half of the units originally required for Cambridge-Maidstone.

 

[Failed Unit]

No, more units are not required. The units that work the peak only service get used instead of sitting in the sidings off peak and on Saturdays.


Cambridge-Kings Cross still runs, and requires at least half of the units originally required for Cambridge-Maidstone.

I know, that it still runs, luckily with less 700s on it. My point is that had the followed the plan and ran it to Maidstone that would have needed 4 extra units. Considering the current situation, that would be at least 4 extra cancellations (probably more as if the units were used more intensively they would fail more)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2025 ==

AIUI it's to do with driver traction knowledge. Some depots/links do not sign 379/387's and given that GN driver diagrams are very complex there is a risk that a swap would result in a driver that does not sign 379's being rostered to drive one. Making a permanent switch wouldn't be easy either as it would involve re-writing a number of driver diagrams to accommodate traction knowledge.

Hopefully come December they can do that. Get the 700s off to other services.

 

[collosus]

700s are good in my eyes but the interior could use abit of an upgrade

 

[bramling]

Cambridge-Kings Cross still runs, and requires at least half of the units originally required for Cambridge-Maidstone.

No one has yet answered the question as to where the additional 700/0 units for Maidstone were going to come from. As far as I can see, Rainham requires more 700/0s than the original Caterham/Tattenham Corner plans would have done, so that has effectively swallowed up the units which would have gone to Maidstone. One way or other, there simply aren’t sufficient spare 700/0 units without something else having to give, and the 12-car fleet has never had slack.

 

[NCT]

At the time of the Maidstone musings, was there still a live option for getting more 700s?

 

[RUK]

No one has yet answered the question as to where the additional 700/0 units for Maidstone were going to come from. As far as I can see, Rainham requires more 700/0s than the original Caterham/Tattenham Corner plans would have done, so that has effectively swallowed up the units which would have gone to Maidstone. One way or other, there simply aren’t sufficient spare 700/0 units without something else having to give, and the 12-car fleet has never had slack.

Since there’s slack in the Class 717 fleet, could they be doubled up and used to cover for the Class 700s?

 

[zwk500]

Since there’s slack in the Class 717 fleet, could they be doubled up and used to cover for the Class 700s?

Do 717s have ATO capability for the TL Core? It's not a show stopper if they don't, but potentially something that might be an issue.

 

[Failed Unit]

Do 717s have ATO capability for the TL Core? It's not a show stopper if they don't, but potentially something that might be an issue.

I think they may need to issue passengers with incontinence pads. I know everyone claims that no-one does end-to-end journeys on Thameslink but toilet less trains wouldn't be welcome. With the high probability of being on a train for over 1 hour after delays etc.

 

[fujifilm]

Do 717s have ATO capability for the TL Core? It's not a show stopper if they don't, but potentially something that might be an issue.

Great Northern train tests successfully for first stage of East Coast Digital Programme

Govia Thameslink Railway has successfully run one of its Great Northern Moorgate Class 717 trains using the digital in-cab signalling system ETCS level 2 (European Train Control System).

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

seems that way?

 

[zwk500]

Great Northern train tests successfully for first stage of East Coast Digital Programme

Govia Thameslink Railway has successfully run one of its Great Northern Moorgate Class 717 trains using the digital in-cab signalling system ETCS level 2 (European Train Control System).

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

seems that way?

AIUI ATO fitment is not automatically included in ETCS fitment. Could be wrong though, maybe it's just a mode that's switched on. I knew they had the ETCS Capability as they required L2 signals-away capability for Moorgate.

 

[TRAX]

Great Northern train tests successfully for first stage of East Coast Digital Programme

Govia Thameslink Railway has successfully run one of its Great Northern Moorgate Class 717 trains using the digital in-cab signalling system ETCS level 2 (European Train Control System).

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

seems that way?

ETCS is not ATO.

 

[westcoaster]

Way back when the class 700s were new, I recall being told that, after some customer research, the flat duct was a deliberate design feature for this reason.

It's for the forced ventilation system iirc.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Since there’s slack in the Class 717 fleet, could they be doubled up and used to cover for the Class 700s?

No toilets, significantly lower power* and significantly lower top speed, so not really. They're not just short 700s with a front door.

*Edit:
6 car Class 717: 1.2 MW at wheel
8 car Class 700: 3.0 MW at wheel
12 car Class 700: 5.0 MW at wheel

Source: Siemens

So a double 717 has less than half the power of a FLU Class 700.