Future of the 350/2s

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The Castlefield Corridor is probably the busiest route, and the 350/2s will work. Plans are being created to extend platforms to fit 8-car trains, which will make operations of 350/2s easier, along with ASDO.

I can see the 350/2s replacing the whole fleet of 323s with Northern, with a few extra 350/2s being used to strengthen services.

Respectfully, you have a tendency to come out with some rather “out there” ideas, so would you mind providing a source please?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2025 ==

Mind you, despite being older, the interior is superior comfort-wise to a 320 and 323.

That’s not something you can claim to be a blanket fact, of course. It’s a subjective opinion (which I agree with!) but won’t go for everyone.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Respectfully, you have a tendency to come out with some rather “out there” ideas, so would you mind providing a source please?

Here is the source for the Castlefield corridor upgrade mainly focusing on Manchester Oxford Road which will be able to accommodate 8 car trains. Which leaves only Deansgate unable to accommodate more than 6 cars however this might be fixed with platform extensions.

Some key Quotes from NR Castlefield Corridor upgrade.

"Capacity
The length of trains able to use the station will increase by two carriages, which translates to around 120 additional seats per service. This will reduce overcrowding and the need for standing on services."

"More frequent services
Improving the track and signalling layout within the station will increase operational flexibility, improving the reliability of services across the regional network and supporting an increase from 12 to 14 trains per hour in off-peak periods."

 

[Mamorin]

Well lengthening the platforms on the Castlefeild Corridor to fit 8 cars further confirms Northern are very interested in the 350/2s.

After all there are not enough 331/1s to run 8 car services, and even though 4 car trains are a part of Northern's new tender why start platform extension works now if 8 car services are not planned to start in the near future.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Well lengthening the platforms on the Castlefeild Corridor to fit 8 cars further confirms Northern are very interested in the 350/2s.

After all there are not enough 331/1s to run 8 car services, and even though 4 car trains are a part of Northern's new tender why start platform extension works now if 8 car services are not planned to start in the near future.

And the 350/2s could allow a handful of extra 8-car diagrams with the 331s.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

And the 350/2s could allow a handful of extra 8-car diagrams with the 331s.

Fitting an 8 car 350 (160m) is very different from fitting an 8 car 331 (190m).
Even a 3+4 car 331 is longer at 166.15m.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Fitting an 8 car 350 (160m) is very different from fitting an 8 car 331 (190m).
Even a 3+4 car 331 is longer at 166.15m.

If the 331s have ASDO, then it becomes easier.

 

[Mamorin]

I think the 331s are fitted with ASDO.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If the 331s have ASDO, then it becomes easier.

I think the 331s are fitted with ASDO.

The 331s do have ASDO, but that doesn't help at termini or if it's blocking a junction that another train needs.

An 8 car wouldn't fit at the potentially problematic stations on Manchester Airport - Blackpool North:
Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Lostock, Leyland, Kirkham & Wesham based on #770.

 

[BerkshireRails]

The 331s do have ADO, but that doesn't help at termini or if it's blocking a junction that another train needs.

An 8 car wouldn't fit at the potentially problematic stations on Manchester Airport - Blackpool North:
Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Lostock, Leyland, Kirkham & Wesham based on #770.

Maybe the 350/2s would operate the challenging routes for 8 cars with ASDO. Also, weren't the 4-car 331s brought across the Pennines to replace the 319s, which saw the 3-car units heading to Leeds? Also, all the Problematic stations listed are through stations for the Manchester Airport to Blackpool North service.

 

[Mamorin]

The 331s do have ADO,

Thanks for confirming that.

Also, weren't the 4-car 331s brought across the Pennines to replace the 319s, which saw the 3-car units heading to Leeds?

Yes that is what happened.

 

[Nym]

I should point out that afaik the only 1990s equipment left on the 323s are the traction motors, so perhaps pushing them to 37/38 years old was not as hard as I thought.

And the...

Bodies, bogies, brakes, WSP, main transformer, aux converter, batteries, doors, door engines, etc etc etc.

 

[Mamorin]

Ok I was wrong, there is more 90s equipment on the 323s than I thought.

I had not counted the bodies since well those can't be changed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2025 ==

I'll say this, if we don't hear anything from Northern about them leasing the 350/2 fleet by say next February then they will no longer want the 350/2s.

Given the full 350/2s fleet comes off lease in December maybe we could hear something from Northern about whether they are taking the 350/2s on or not.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I'll say this, if we don't hear anything from Northern about them leasing the 350/2 fleet by say next February then they will no longer want the 350/2s.

Given the full 350/2s fleet comes off lease in December maybe we could hear something from Northern about whether they are taking the 350/2s on or not.

However, it took Chiltern around 18 months from the end of lease of the Mark5As in December 2023 before they publicly said they were taking on the Mark5As, so it could be a similar story with the 305/2s; however, it does look promising for Northern and the 350/2s.

 

[Mamorin]

Don't forget Northern and the 350/2s has taken a while.

The 350/2s undertook gauging trials in Manchester late last year.

Then all went quiet until January this year when there was that run from Crewe to Manchester Airport via Liverpool Lime Street and back.

Most recently we had the trial on the Glossop Line.

I agree it is looking promising with Northern and the 350/2s which is nice.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Well lengthening the platforms on the Castlefeild Corridor to fit 8 cars further confirms Northern are very interested in the 350/2s.

It doesn't. The proposed Oxford Road redevelopment has only just entered the consultation phase and is many years away. That's assuming it happens at all.

 

[Mamorin]

Oh right, my bad. I made a dumb assumption.

I was unaware of what stage the proposed Oxford Road redevelopment was at.

 

[td97]

Capacity
The length of trains able to use the station will increase by two carriages, which translates to around 120 additional seats per service.

I expect that is relating to provision to integrate with the TRU provision for 7-car Class 80x i.e. 26×7=182m.

 

[Rail Ranger]

The two-year closure of Oxford Road is planned to be from 2029 to 2031 if it happens.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I expect that is relating to provision to integrate with the TRU provision for 7-car Class 80x i.e. 26×7=182m.

The NR consultation documents refer to extending platforms to 8 cars for platforms 1 & 3 from 6 cars and 6 cars for platform 2 from 4 cars.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Those are the new platform numbers. New platform 2 will be a bay. New platforms 1 and 3 will be through platforms.

 

[Mamorin]

The two-year closure of Oxford Road is planned to be from 2029 to 2031 if it happens.

Thanks for that information. I had heard that Oxford Road was planned to close for two years but I had forgotten when it is planned to happen.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Those are the new platform numbers. New platform 2 will be a bay. New platforms 1 and 3 will be through platforms.

The diagram from Network Rail Consultation Documents shows that current platforms 1 & 5 will no longer be a thing at Manchester Oxford Road.

 

[brad465]

The two-year closure of Oxford Road is planned to be from 2029 to 2031 if it happens.

So if the work is approved, Northern's proposed new fleet could avoid using the current Oxford Rd setup, but 350/2s would have to go through a few years of service on the current setup, which, considering an 8-car would foul junctions at the station, would see them have to avoid this route, or be capped at 4-car, or have to be reformed into 3-car units if worthwhile.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if the work is approved, Northern's proposed new fleet could avoid using the current Oxford Rd setup, but 350/2s would have to go through a few years of service on the current setup, which, considering an 8-car would foul junctions at the station, would see them have to avoid this route, or be capped at 4-car, or have to be reformed into 3-car units if worthwhile.

Only if fouling the junction is a problem. P1 basically isn't used as it has no lift, while P5 is only used a couple of times an hour. Fouling junctions is not on its own a problem, only if it gets in the way of another train's path.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Only if fouling the junction is a problem. P1 basically isn't used as it has no lift, while P5 is only used a couple of times an hour. Fouling junctions is not on its own a problem, only if it gets in the way of another train's path.

Also platform current platform 2 & 4 are 160/162 metres long so it is probably just about possible to fit a 8 car 350/2 at Oxford Road.

 

[Peter0124]

If Oxford Road is closing, I wonder how busy the Piccadilly 13/14 island will end up for those two years?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Oxford Road is closing, I wonder how busy the Piccadilly 13/14 island will end up for those two years?

I suspect they'll need to call more trains at Deansgate to moderate that a bit - possibly everything.

 

[warwickshire]

Thursday 07th August 2025,

1. 1917 5Q39 Wembley db Sidings to Manchester Piccadilly.

Following on overnight testing on the Hadfield branch line:
1. 5Q49 2334 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield.
2. 5Q69 0031 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly
3. 5Q51 0122 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield
4. 5Q52 0211 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly.
5. 5Q53 0300 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield
6. 5Q54 0346 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly
7. 5Q57 0330 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield
8. 5Q58 0445 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly
9. 5Q55 0430 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield
10. 5Q56 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly.

Returns Friday 08th August 2025

1. 0643 Manchester Piccadilly to Wembley db Sidings.

Ref www.realtimetrains.co.uk and old rail record websites.

Possibility of 5 testing trips, possibly they are testing to see if two heavy laiden 3502s with sandbags, can pass each other side by side , on the branch line, like the 323s do, to see if and to test for any power issues cause any operational power problems should two 3502s pass together maybe side by side?

However second time running and so close means Northern are certainly interested in the Hadfield line for starters. Maybe.

Regards
Warwickshire

 

[Mamorin]

Thanks for the information, though I must disagree on the Glossop Line getting 350/2s first if Northern take on the 350/2 fleet.

I feel Northern are only using the Glossop Line for testing because timetables there are tight, and Northern want to see if the 350/2s can stick to Northern's tight timetables.

Northern must be very interested in the 350/2 given this is the 2nd test in under two weeks.

 

[JonathanH]

Northern must be very interested in the 350/2 given this is the 2nd test in under two weeks.

Or they aren't, and someone is trying to convince them it is a good idea?