Future of the 350/2s

[Mamorin]

Well at least at minimum any 350/2 refurb would add plugs and USB-C charging to Standard Class, which would be nice for the 350/2s to finally have.

At the end of the day if Porterbrook offer a good price I do expect Northern to lease the 350/2s.

323s are 31 years old and are near the end of their working lives, so getting rid of them now for newer 4 car trains at a good leasing price makes sense.

 

[tfw756rider]

Well at least at minimum any 350/2 refurb would add plugs and USB-C charging to Standard Class, which would be nice for the 350/2s to finally have.

AC and USB-C DC (but not USB-A DC) would be a strange combination.

Doesn't necessarily have to be USB-C though; you can get USB-C to USB-A cables.

As long as USB-A ports work properly and charge at the proper speed for USB-A (unlike on 350/3s from my experience), there's nothing wrong with them in my opinion, even with the lack of Power Delivery (PD) speeds.

 

[Peter749]

323s are 31 years old and are near the end of their working lives, so getting rid of them now for newer 4 car trains at a good leasing price makes sense.

Currently Northern are running 6 car 323s on the Blackpool - Manchester Airport trains - going to a 4 car 350 would be a backwards step.

 

[Mamorin]

I feel like that service would become 8 cars if Northern took on the 350/2s.

Of course the 350/2s would need SDO, but that would be retro-fitted as part of a refurbishment.

 

[Fokx]

I feel like that service would become 8 cars if Northern took on the 350/2s.

Of course the 350/2s would need SDO, but that would be retro-fitted as part of a refurbishment.

C-ASDO would be the obvious solution similar to the 185's

Particularly as some of the shared stations already have C-ASDO beacons fitted for use with TPE.

 

[SeanG]

I've heard that the 350/2s will be formed into semi-permanently coupled 7 car sets by taking a trailer out of one set and then being ran on the Manchester - Blackpool runs

Moderator note: the above has since been retracted

 

[Trainbike46]

C-ASDO would be the obvious solution similar to the 185's

Particularly as some of the shared stations already have C-ASDO beacons fitted for use with TPE.

What is the C in C-ASDO?

 

[tfw756rider]

What is the C in C-ASDO?

Coach.

185's have a door system known as C-ASDO. This is Coach - Automatic Selective Door Opening. In its basic form, when the train runs into a platform it passes over a beacon telling the train that that coach is on the platform. This is coach based so either opens a whole coach or no doors at all. So if 5 coaches roll over the beacon you get door release on 5 coaches. The beacons are set 13.5m in from the platform end and the receiver on the train is placed within the middle of the coach roughly on the battery box. Because of this, if 6 coaches are on the platform but it has not passed the beacon the doors in the 6th coach will not release. An example of this is Thirsk in the Down direction. All the train is on the platform, but the train has not completely passed the 13.5m set length.
There is very little overrun protection with C-ASDO but will reset at a predetermined reset point.
If for example you stopped out of course i.e at a signal and gave door release the train would not allow it as the train has not passed over a beacon.

@PennineSuperb said the above in this thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2025 ==

I've heard that the 350/2s will be formed into semi-permanently coupled 7 car sets by taking a trailer out of one set and then being ran on the Manchester - Blackpool runs

Sounds interesting!

 

[The exile]

@PennineSuperb said the above in this thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2025 ==

Sounds like a “why can’t we have that everywhere” system (yes, I know, ‘oo’s going to pay for it?). If it could acquire some gizmo to tell the train whether said platform was on the right or the left we could forget all those minutes lost while someone checks that noone’s stolen the platform since the previous train.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I've heard that the 350/2s will be formed into semi-permanently coupled 7 car sets by taking a trailer out of one set and then being ran on the Manchester - Blackpool runs

Heard from where?

 

[SeanG]

Unfortunately I can't say who but it's a source in Northern

 

[Mamorin]

I've heard that the 350/2s will be formed into semi-permanently coupled 7 car sets by taking a trailer out of one set and then being ran on the Manchester - Blackpool runs

Is it even possible to take a coach out of a 350/2?.

Like the TC car could have some gubbins under the floors required for the train to work.

It would also be odd for Northern to take on the 350/2 fleet to then only use them one route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2025 ==

C-ASDO would be the obvious solution similar to the 185's

Particularly as some of the shared stations already have C-ASDO beacons fitted for use with TPE.

The 350/2s would still need manual SDO for the routes that don't have C-ASDO beacons fitted at stations.

 

[D365]

Is it even possible to take a coach out of a 350/2?.

Like the TC car could have some gubbins under the floors required for the train to work.

It’s not impossible

 

[Mamorin]

Ok I should worded have that first sentence better lol, or like not included it.

My point about the TC car possibly having gubbins under the floor required for the train to work, still stands though.

Thats why I have issues with the idea of Northern reforming some 350/2s to 3 cars to allow for 7 car working.

Can't see why any testing would have been done in the past to test if 350/2s could run without the TC car.

 

[D365]

Ok I should worded have that first sentence better lol, or like not included it.

My point about the TC car possibly having gubbins under the floor required for the train to work, still stands though.

Thats why I have issues with the idea of Northern reforming some 350/2s to 3 cars to allow for 7 car working.

Yes your point stands. But as my original comment alludes to - Porterbrook is very aware of this.

Nevertheless, a mixed 3 / 4 car 350/2 fleet is not being considered.

 

[Mamorin]

But as my original comment alludes to - Porterbrook is very aware of this.

Thanks for explaining that, sometimes I'm not good at getting at what people are alluding to.

Nevertheless, a mixed 3 / 4 car 350/2 fleet is not being considered.

Thanks for confirming this.

 

[Halish Railway]

Regarding the debate on whether the 350s should run in 6, 7 or 8 carriage formations, are there any platforms on the Manchester Airport to Blackpool North that are difficult/impossible to extend to 160 meters to accommodate an eight carriage 350 formation?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Currently Northern are running 6 car 323s on the Blackpool - Manchester Airport trains - going to a 4 car 350 would be a backwards step.

Not unless they plan to run them in multiple!

 

[tfw756rider]

Nevertheless, a mixed 3 / 4 car 350/2 fleet is not being considered.

In that case, I wonder why @SeanG heard that it is?

 

[skyhigh]

In that case, I wonder why @SeanG heard that it is?

Because all sorts of rumours exist on the Railway.

 

[Snow1964]

Well at least at minimum any 350/2 refurb would add plugs and USB-C charging to Standard Class, which would be nice for the 350/2s to finally have.

Realistically going to get a mid life refurbishment, they are 16-17 years old already. Once done should be good for another 20 years.

They have already had 110mph modifications, and the high density 2+3 seating for busy commuter services might need changing to 2+2

Realistically if want to use them for possibly another 20 years, then got to bring them upto today's standards, rather than the standards of 18 years ago (although could argue 24 years ago, as they were follow on orders of 450/350).

Does it matter that they would be non standard, if a new big fleet comes in few years time, not really with 37 x 4 cars, bigger than many fleets today, and fine if kept in one geographical area. Being a 4car unit isn't a big deal either, as many of the potential routes have seen 2car diesels, or 3car EMUs, and cascading some 3 car EMUs to routes that need pairs operating as 6car fixes lots of crowding issues.

A 8car 350 is only 17m longer than 2x3car 331s, and if there are any exceptionally busy routes, then probably ought to be looking at short platform extensions anyway.

 

[BerkshireRails]

A 8car 350 is only 17m longer than 2x3car 331s, and if there are any exceptionally busy routes, then probably ought to be looking at short platform extensions anyway.

The Castlefield Corridor is probably the busiest route, and the 350/2s will work. Plans are being created to extend platforms to fit 8-car trains, which will make operations of 350/2s easier, along with ASDO.

I can see the 350/2s replacing the whole fleet of 323s with Northern, with a few extra 350/2s being used to strengthen services.

 

[Mamorin]

I can see the 350/2s replacing the whole fleet of 323s with Northern, with a few extra 350/2s being used to strengthen services.

That is what will happen if Northern take on the 350/2s.

With the 323s being 31 years old it and there being more 350/2s than Northern have 323s, it just makes sense for Northern to replace their 323 fleet with the 350/2 fleet.

Having 8 cars instead of 6 on services to places like Blackpool would be great for capacity.

 

[Halifaxlad]

They have already had 110mph modifications, and the high density 2+3 seating for busy commuter services might need changing to 2+2

333s have 3+2 seating and arn't changing anytime soon.

323s have the same.

Whilst it would be a good Idea I can't see it being a necessity.

 

[Snow1964]

That is what will happen if Northern take on the 350/2s.

With the 323s being 31 years old it and there being more 350/2s than Northern have 323s, it just makes sense for Northern to replace their 323 fleet with the 350/2 fleet.

Having 8 cars instead of 6 on services to places like Blackpool would be great for capacity.

I see it differently, I think Northern will use them partly as a refurb float, and partly to allow a cascade, some 3car services become 4car, and some 4car workings become 2x3car

My own hunch is the 323s will stay on for a while (2 or 3 might be withdrawn as spare parts donators), until towards end of its big MMU & BEMU order (probably around 2031-32). The last thing it needs is to have to keep using aging DMUs on newly electrified sections until its new BEMU fleet enters service (which is not likely to be before 2029-30)

 

[Mamorin]

Realistically going to get a mid life refurbishment, they are 16-17 years old already. Once done should be good for another 20 years.

They have already had 110mph modifications, and the high density 2+3 seating for busy commuter services might need changing to 2+2

Realistically if want to use them for possibly another 20 years, then got to bring them upto today's standards, rather than the standards of 18 years ago (although could argue 24 years ago, as they were follow on orders of 450/350).

Does it matter that they would be non standard, if a new big fleet comes in few years time, not really with 37 x 4 cars, bigger than many fleets today, and fine if kept in one geographical area. Being a 4car unit isn't a big deal either, as many of the potential routes have seen 2car diesels, or 3car EMUs, and cascading some 3 car EMUs to routes that need pairs operating as 6car fixes lots of crowding issues.

A 8car 350 is only 17m longer than 2x3car 331s, and if there are any exceptionally busy routes, then probably ought to be looking at short platform extensions anyway.

Should have figured any refurbishment of the 350/2s would be a Mid Life refurbishment.

You’re right about it not mattering when they become non-standard if a new fleet comes in to service.

While I feel that at off peak times on some routes 4 cars would be over kill, If that allows for longer trains on busier routes then thats fine.

Much like @Halifaxlad I can't see the seating on the 350/2s going from 3+2 to 2+2.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2025 ==

My own hunch is the 323s will stay on for a while (2 or 3 might be withdrawn as spare parts donators), until towards end of its big MMU & BEMU order (probably around 2031-32).

Will the 323s even make it to the 2030s? I mean they are already 31 years old, in 2031-2032 the 323s will be 37/38 years old.

37/38 years old is kinda pushing it for EMUs, sure keeping EMUs in service for that long can be done Southern did it with the 455s, but its not easy to do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2025 ==

I see it differently, I think Northern will use them partly as a refurb float, and partly to allow a cascade, some 3car services become 4car, and some 4car workings become 2x3car

Northern want to make their operations simpler not more complicated, keeping the 323s and taking on the 350/2s would just make things more complicated operations wise.

 

[Peter0124]

Will the 323s even make it to the 2030s? I mean they are already 31 years old, in 2031-2032 the 323s will be 37/38 years old.

37/38 years old is kinda pushing it for EMUs, sure keeping EMUs in service for that long can be done Southern did it with the 455s, but its not easy to do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2025 ==

The 318s with Scotrail are 39 years old now, and I expect they'll be in service until around 2029-2032 once the replacement stock is delivered

Mind you, despite being older, the interior is superior comfort-wise to a 320 and 323.

 

[Mamorin]

Well given the 318s are 39 years old, I guess its possible the 323s could make it to 37/38 years old.

323s do seem to be in good shape mechanically. Though the last time I rode on a 323 was November last year so their condition could have changed by now.

If you think the 318 interior is better than a 320 and 323, then the 318 interior is also better than a 350/2 as the 350/2s have never had a interior refurbishment.

 

[JonathanH]

37/38 years old is kinda pushing it for EMUs, sure keeping EMUs in service for that long can be done Southern did it with the 455s, but its not easy to do.

I'm not sure it actually is pushing it. The reality is that circumstances often see EMU fleets replaced before they are truly life expired.

Some 315s and 317s both went past 40 years, while some 321s didn't make it much past 30 years. That doesn't mean that the 321s were less able to work on, it just was about the investment in upgrades for passengers with reduced mobility that wasn't warranted. 319s could have worked for longer for Northern but another fleet was available to replace them. There are other examples of this.

The reality is that some parts become obsolete, which makes it harder to maintain units, but in theory those could be replaced and the unit could live on.

 

[Mamorin]

319s were not suited for Northern given the slow acceleration of the 319s.

There is good reason why 319s stopped doing 323 cover on services to Stoke for example.

To be fair we could get to the end of this year when the whole 350/2 fleet is off lease and Northern could have decided not to lease the fleet, thus meaning that the 323s would reach 37/38 years old.

We don't know what Northern thought of the Glossop line trial.

Though given the number of Northern staff aboard the 350/2 during the Glossop line trial Northern are very interested.

Of course very interested does not mean Northern 100% want the 350/2s.

I should point out that afaik the only 1990s equipment left on the 323s are the traction motors, so perhaps pushing them to 37/38 years old was not as hard as I thought.