tfw756rider
On Moderation
I think @Sorcerer is referring to the 390 (Pendolino / the tilting technology is Italian, even if the train is built by a French company in Britain, later Italy).
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HS2 Class 895s (Hitachi Alstom High-Speed)
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Exactly this, yes. The 390 was built by Alstom after acquiring Fiat Ferroviaria, the original manufacturers of the Pendolino technology, and the second batch of four 11-coach units were built in the Savigliano plant in Italy. Meanwhile the 895 is based on the Zefiro platform, more specifically the Frecciarossa 1000 that was built by AnsaldoBreda which later became Hitachi Rail Italy. Therefore my line of thinking is both the 390 and 895 are Italian trains despite being built by both a French and Japanese manufacturer respectively (with some German-Canadian input through Bombardier in the case of the Zefiro before it was acquired by Alstom).
And you say we're in for a treat ? I agree with you, I love the Pendolinos, there's something so "solid" and "tactile" about the whole thing/experience, they just feel like a lovely quality train through and through, nothing cheap or rattly. Just love them, especially in the new Avanti livery, there's something so special about seeing them pull into the modernist Euston with their sleek lines and elegant colours and knowing you're going to be whizzing through the British countryside at 125mph on a magic tilting ride 
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Completely agree, and the refurbishment has made them all the more incredible. A worthy flagship of Britain.
Great to hear it, thanks for agreeing
Yes, a worthy flagship (flagtrain?!) of Britain. Something to be proud of - international cooperation, distinctly British. Wonderful stuff.Snow1964
Established Member
From memory not that many platforms can accommodate a 300m (984 feet) train. In old money 1000 feet platforms aren't common.
Around 270m (886 feet) should fit more widely,
For comparison 11car 390 is 265m (870 feet)
2 x 5car IET is 260m (853 feet)
Probably should try to avoid any variation contracts (as usually expensive and cause delays) and I would think alternative of buying additional intermediate vehicles to get nearer this length might be possible. If the core services can take 400m trains then no need to change them, but for just about every service running onto old network, need to fit the existing platforms. So possibly about 60% need to be longer for regular single unit working.
perstreperous
Member
This is well done but, when HS2 goes into service, it's a fair bet that all charging, other than that of obsolete devices, will be USB-C. One three-pin socket and two USB-C sockets would be more appropriate.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Wireless charging is probably more likely, but we don't know the standard that will be prevalent by then. Thus a modular design is probably best.
The three pin socket won't have gone anywhere, though.
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There is a USB-C port on the back of the seat, but I don't think three-pins are going anywhere.
They included mockups of three pins on the tables and also on the foam seat mockup as can be seen in the post I made the other day. The pre-briefing I had at the start of the lookaround session mentioned three pins and that they had put them at an angle to include big block chargers.
Yes, but on the back of the foam seat there's a phone holder with a USB-C port.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It'll be interesting to see what sort of battery tech advances happen before these enter service. It might be that hardly anyone wants to charge anyway - and it's laptops that are blazing that trail, my MacBook Pro (which is about 5 years old now) can still do a full 9 hours of work without power. It might be that the use-case for these is reduced significantly - and I suspect wifi too.
Even if most devices have a USB-C input for charging, charging from a USB-C port on a train won't deliver the same power or convenience as a proper plug socket. Trying to charge a MacBook from a low-power USB port is not going to be a pleasant experience.
LittleRedTrain
Member
My wife (a mobility scooter user) and I went to look at the HS2 mock-ups in Derby and unfortunately found the accessibility a little bit disappointing, despite assurances from the staff that it had been thoroughly tried out with disabled user groups.
Level boarding will only be available at HS2 dedicated stations, with a manual ramp still required anywhere on the 'classic' lines.
Anyone boarding in a wheelchair or mobility scooter via the door on the 'wrong' side has to do an immediate sharp 120 degree turn to do a dog-leg around the accessible toilet, or do a three point turn in the vestibule area. This is exactly the same problem as Voyagers have and makes boarding them with a mobility scooter extremely challenging.
The 'accessible' spaces are up against a solid partition, so difficult to manoeuvre a mobility scooter or chair without rotating rear wheels in and out, and not enough space to turn a scooter around completely. There is at least a flip-up table to give a bit more manoeuvring room, but it's still tight.
There is no direct access from the disabled seats in Standard class to the buffet/catering area.
The bike storage area has no provision for tricycles or other disabled-adapted cycles, though this was probably too much to hope for on any train.
Also, the demonstration 'buggy' area only had space for 1, or maybe 2, very small buggies. Not exactly ample provision.
Although this probably all complies with the appropriate legislation, and is what the government ordered, it's disappointing that the opportunity hasn't been taken to make this a 'best in class' experience for allowing people with disabilities to travel comfortably and independently, especially with an ageing population.
It's not like something much better isn't possible, as Stadler have shown with their units on Greater Anglia.
Level boarding will only be available at HS2 dedicated stations, with a manual ramp still required anywhere on the 'classic' lines.
Anyone boarding in a wheelchair or mobility scooter via the door on the 'wrong' side has to do an immediate sharp 120 degree turn to do a dog-leg around the accessible toilet, or do a three point turn in the vestibule area. This is exactly the same problem as Voyagers have and makes boarding them with a mobility scooter extremely challenging.
The 'accessible' spaces are up against a solid partition, so difficult to manoeuvre a mobility scooter or chair without rotating rear wheels in and out, and not enough space to turn a scooter around completely. There is at least a flip-up table to give a bit more manoeuvring room, but it's still tight.
There is no direct access from the disabled seats in Standard class to the buffet/catering area.
The bike storage area has no provision for tricycles or other disabled-adapted cycles, though this was probably too much to hope for on any train.
Also, the demonstration 'buggy' area only had space for 1, or maybe 2, very small buggies. Not exactly ample provision.
Although this probably all complies with the appropriate legislation, and is what the government ordered, it's disappointing that the opportunity hasn't been taken to make this a 'best in class' experience for allowing people with disabilities to travel comfortably and independently, especially with an ageing population.
It's not like something much better isn't possible, as Stadler have shown with their units on Greater Anglia.
USB C is currently capable of up to 240 watts and by the time these things are in service likely even more. Unless you’re planning on hovering the trains I can’t think of many devices where that’s not enough?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Full spec USB C is, but are these to that spec, or are they the rather more common "USB A with a USB C connector" type provision, i.e. 5V only with limited current more like what a typical power bank will deliver?
Some laptops will only charge if a 12V connection is negotiated, for example.
Why wouldn’t simple Euro style 2+1 first class be an option?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I did at one point wonder if Avanti Standard Premium was testing that concept for HS2, i.e. no food service but priced more attractively at around 1.5 times Standard.
I'd have no problem with that approach being used, but the priority is probably cramming in as many seats as possible if they are still going with 8 car units.
This is interesting, were you able to give feedback ?
LittleRedTrain
Member
Yes, she fed this back to several of the staff present and we had a good discussion, but their philosophy seemed to be "We've tried it with user groups, they all thought it was fine, and we just have to do what the legislation says".
I believe it's 8-coaches each 25m long. The Frecciarossa 1000 is just slightly longer at 202m which I assume is because of the nose shape on the driving coaches each making them a metre longer, and since that's what the HS2 stock is based on it's fair to say that it'll be 8x 25m coaches. This also enables 400m long trains when coupled up, but since cutting back on the project this shouldn't be as much of a priority anymore compared to getting as much capacity as you can out of a single unit.
I'd expect the new airline-standard of 60W PD. That's sufficient for almost every laptop.
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I was informed the end cars are longer than the middle cars due to the aerodynamic noses.
gabrielhj07
Established Member
Looks like Hitachi have at last worked out how to make plug doors work. Disappointing lack of unicycle storage though.
Bombardier Rail’s engineering teams aren’t just in Germany. The team in Vasteras, Sweden handled electrical design work, and Derby were involved in the bogies.
[source]
tfw756rider
On Moderation
This strange combination of AC and USB-C (but no USB-A) was also mentioned in the "Future of the 350/2s" thread.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
USB-A will have fallen out of use by the time these are on the rails.
Mains is future proofing - it won't go away and it accommodates "odd" devices.
tfw756rider
On Moderation
Fair enough then.
Just to be clear, are you saying this in the case for the Frecciarossa or the 895s? In the case of the former it would make sense, but I'd be surprised if it were the case of the latter since I expected the 895s to have a reduced profile in order to fit within the loading/structure gauge requirements.
So evidently there's a lot of outsourcing, but I'd still personally consider the Zefiro platform to be predominantly Italian. It's not important in the grand scheme of things really, just a personal viewpoint on my half. Indeed it seems quite fitting that an Italian train be the replacement flagship fleet for an older Italian train when it reaches the end of it's lifespan.
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