TPE Piccadilly staff not accepting cash payments

[Haywain]

Given that it was made unlawful for businesses to charge additional fees for paying for goods or services by card, l hardly see a situation where businesses are permitted to do so for paying with cash being permitted.

It already happens in London with the difference between contactless fares and those for paper tickets.

 

[Tram203]

Bit of a depressing read this thread to be honest, I'd even go as far as saying disappointing of the forum and some of its members and contributors.

The OP @Angmering1974 has simply asked an initial question and appears to have been bombarded from all angles, indeed unprofessionally by one poster who appears to be a TPE employee.

Some of the posts in this thread appears to be (frankly irrelevant) personal opinions about the use of cash and the OP being behind the times. What's crucial is the rules as they are written, not the rules as some posters seem to feel they should be written (change rules for National Rail Conditions of Travel if you prefer).

The OP would be doing nothing wrong presenting a £20 or even a £50 note on every occasion they face the situation they describe, and some here would do well to remember that is perfectly within the rules and to stop chuntering, huffing and puffing nonsense.

 

[Starmill]

Given that it was made unlawful for businesses to charge additional fees for paying for goods or services by card, l hardly see a situation where businesses are permitted to do so for paying with cash being permitted.

Really? The Payment Services Directive 2 was the origin of that law, and it doesn't restrict the extra charge for cash. I don't see anything to suggest that charging more if paying in cash is currently unlawful. As above I can think of situations where the price is already higher in cash. More to the point, Parliament are in no position to force businesses to accept cash - that horse is long bolted now. There are many thousands up and down the country who don't. So encouraging charging a small fee may be the only practical way to meet the stated aim of its general retention as an option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2025 ==

The OP would be doing nothing wrong presenting a £20 or even a £50 note on every occasion they face the situation they describe, and some here would do well to remember that is perfectly within the rules and to stop chuntering, huffing and puffing nonsense.

Can you point me to where someone has disagreed with that? There's nothing I can see where anyone has said payment in cash isn't permitted. Neither do I see anyone implying that OP is obliged to pay another way.

 

[Ken H]

Or pay at their destination.

So a Giggleswick to Wennington journey? One i do having bought a Lancashire Day ticket. What would the ticket office at a staffed station say if i were to buy such an off line ticket? At Bare Lane, perhaps?

 

[Hadders]

Delay Repay was mentioned in the opening post by @Angmering1974 but they later edited their post and removed it.

In any case delay repay isn't really the issue here, the question is about whether cash should be accepted onboard so let's confine discussion to this particular point now.

My own view is that the world is moving on and it is becoming harder to justify accepting cash onboard.

There is a security risk when cash is being carried by members of staff
Cash is expensive to process, especially when there is only a low value involved (which is increasingly the case)
There's the staff cost of counting it at the end of the shift
It's got to be paid in and reconciled again in a cash office (that has to be staffed etc)
Cash has to be sent to and from the bank - this costs money for cash in transit. Again, a larger proportionate cost when it's a small value involved.

Society in general is moving on from cash. It is still a part of the payment landscape but it's becoming smaller. My view is that it is important that cash is retained as an option for people who can't pay by card but there are probably better ways of doing this than being able to pay onboard, or at a ticket machine etc. It would need some thought as to how vulnerable people are catered for but I do think we're reaching the point where this sort of work needs to be considered.

Buses in London went cashless back in 2012. There were howls of protest at the time but it really hasn't been an issue.

 

[LowLevel]

Bit of a depressing read this thread to be honest, I'd even go as far as saying disappointing of the forum and some of its members and contributors.

The OP @Angmering1974 has simply asked an initial question and appears to have been bombarded from all angles, indeed unprofessionally by one poster who appears to be a TPE employee.

Some of the posts in this thread appears to be (frankly irrelevant) personal opinions about the use of cash and the OP being behind the times. What's crucial is the rules as they are written, not the rules as some posters seem to feel they should be written (change rules for National Rail Conditions of Travel if you prefer).

The OP would be doing nothing wrong presenting a £20 or even a £50 note on every occasion they face the situation they describe, and some here would do well to remember that is perfectly within the rules and to stop chuntering, huffing and puffing nonsense.

Back in the day large notes were seen as sport both on buses and trains.

I think my favourite was someone paying me £20 for a 70p single from Matlock Bath to Matlock who had the bad grace to be grumpy when I gave him 10 x £1 coins and £9.30 in silver as his change, including £2 worth of 5ps.

Someone had cleared out their change jar to pay me earlier on and I was happy to be rid of it.

 

[Wolfie]

It already happens in London with the difference between contactless fares and those for paper tickets.

Not an exact comparison though given that you can top up an Oyster card with cash and use a card to buy a paper ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2025 ==

Back in the day large notes were seen as sport both on buses and trains.

I think my favourite was someone paying me £20 for a 70p single from Matlock Bath to Matlock who had the bad grace to be grumpy when I gave him 10 x £1 coins and £9.30 in silver as his change, including £2 worth of 5ps.

Someone had cleared out their change jar to pay me earlier on and I was happy to be rid of it.

Now that is absolutely fair - play stupid games win stupid prizes lol...

 

[reastreetmetro]

How many thefts of the cash were happening on TPE? I didn't realise it was such a problem!

I don't think it is a notable problem but it is a passable excuse to not bother carrying a float.

Bit of a depressing read this thread to be honest, I'd even go as far as saying disappointing of the forum and some of its members and contributors.

The OP would be doing nothing wrong presenting a £20 or even a £50 note on every occasion they face the situation they describe, and some here would do well to remember that is perfectly within the rules and to stop chuntering, huffing and puffing nonsense.

I suspect there are those who think the railway system should operate led by the overarching objective of attracting people from their cars, making it a easy a possible for the potential passenger, and there are also those who see passengers as an unfortunate but unavoidable necessity to justify the running of trains.

I think I understand why our TPE friend is not particularly sympathetic to the cash paying minority no doubt due to negative or frustrating interactions in the past but guards are there for the passengers benefit and the case for keeping the guard on the train is mostly based on this. Deliberately not carrying a float is just not helpful.

Buy tickets from an app, booking office, machine or the conductor. Let's just get the money out of their hands somehow!

Buses in London went cashless back in 2012. There were howls of protest at the time but it really hasn't been an issue.

London did benefit from a vast network of shops and newsagents/kiosks where cash paying passengers could buy tickets or load tickets into Oyster cards. I'm not sure if we can say rail passengers have that same facility today (yet).

 

[185]

Deliberately not carrying a float is just not helpful.

Firstgroup took over TPE from Arriva Trains Northern in 2004, and before then, the Manchester staff would collect the machine and a £20 float from the Virgin Trains booking office. After about three or four cost cutting exercises, Firstgroup moved the machine collection location several times, and I am under the impression they no longer get issued with a float each day.

That said, the poster is lucky they are dealing with TPEs staff and not those gentlemen in blue on platforms 8-12, as they'd probably be buried underneath 3.5 tonnes of incorrectly issued penalty fares, MG11, SJPNs or penalty fakes by now.

 

[Hadders]

London did benefit from a vast network of shops and newsagents/kiosks where cash paying passengers could buy tickets or load tickets into Oyster cards. I'm not sure if we can say rail passengers have that same facility today (yet).

Agreed and it’s interesting to note that the uptake of contactless is now resulting in there being fewer Oyster ticket shops around London, as Oyster is going out of fashion.

I don’t think we’re quite at the point where cash should not be accepted but I do think that point is approaching and potentially consideration should take place into what safeguards should be in place.

 

[Starmill]

Not an exact comparison though given that you can top up an Oyster card with cash and use a card to buy a paper ticket.

Of course but say a peak single trip from Hatfield to Finsbury Park, if you wish to pay cash it's £13.30, if you use contactless it's only £9.70.

 

[Krokodil]

To which my answer would be "I'll walk back with you then and we can get it sorted" ...

Or offer exact change. You're under no obligation to of course, but it would be interesting to see the reaction.

and due to how much of a pain the paperwork is when they take cash I know many would rather not.

Over here we just have to fill date, name, bag number (something like 12 digits each, two bags if we also have warrants/vouchers/non-issues to deposit), amount and sign. In the days when we used to have to fill out a piece of paper to put in said bag I used have everything ready on the secondman's desk and complete it in the three minutes between the penultimate station and the depot. Just what paperwork do you lot have that's so arduous?

Cash is a pain for 99% of people and I would argue that for those who it is necessary for, they would be perfectly catered for by TOs and gatelines. Bring on card only onboard, we are in the 2020s not the 1980s as much as some people would like to think. Anecdotally I took over £600 on my shift today - so don’t go accusing me of being a lazy guard. £6 of that was cash. Less than 1%…

I took a three figure sum in cash yesterday. Not an uncommon occurrence.

Those travelling between minor unstaffed stations and trying to pay in cash are almost always attempting free rides because they know they can get away with it…

If I see someone with a fiver in his hand then I know that he's going to pay with no trouble. Much easier than the charade of "this card definitely works" (whenever someone says that, you know that it'll decline) or pretending that their phone has died. I don't even have to wait for the card reader to get enough signal to process the transaction - if I've got a large group of kids off to the cinema, I can sort them out far quicker if they're paying cash than trying to process numerous £1.50 card transactions.

My cash float never leaves my cab. Ever. I’m not putting myself in a position to be threatened over £50. If someone pays me by cash and needs change, I will go back to my cab, dump the money they’ve given me and then give them the change. If they can’t pay by card.

I've been threatened over a lot of things in my time. Not once has it been in order to get at the cash I'm carrying. Never heard of it happening to a colleague either.

Back in the day large notes were seen as sport both on buses and trains.

I think my favourite was someone paying me £20 for a 70p single from Matlock Bath to Matlock who had the bad grace to be grumpy when I gave him 10 x £1 coins and £9.30 in silver as his change, including £2 worth of 5ps.

Someone had cleared out their change jar to pay me earlier on and I was happy to be rid of it.

If someone tries to use a £50 note for a small train, I'll make sure that they get their change, even if this knackers my float until the next opportunity to run into a booking office. Otherwise they'll try it on all the time, knowing that the guard would just walk on without charging them. It's even funnier when they overhear you get to the next person and can't charge them because you're out of change.

I did hear a story of someone who would pay for a £3 fare in copper, but who would periodically use a £20 note instead. A guard got wise to this, saved up the copper in his float and the next time that a £20 note was offered went to the back cab for "some change". Came back with £17 in copper.

 

[BurtonM]

If you're interchanging at Piccadilly, paying cash, and the first opportunity to pay is these TPE staff, what happens if you have a connection to make that satisfies the minimum interchange (10 mins), and the queue for a ticket is 15 minutes? Do you have to wait and buy a ticket, but then end up behind the itinerary and in a Delay Repay grey area because you've delayed yourself to buy a ticket, or do you make the interchange and take the next opportunity to pay?
Arguably if you interchanged using the overbridge, you wouldn't pass the revenue staff or any opportunity to pay, because the TVM on 13/14 also doesn't take cash.

 

[Watershed]

If you're interchanging at Piccadilly, paying cash, and the first opportunity to pay is these TPE staff, what happens if you have a connection to make that satisfies the minimum interchange (10 mins), and the queue for a ticket is 15 minutes? Do you have to wait and buy a ticket, but then end up behind the itinerary and in a Delay Repay grey area because you've delayed yourself to buy a ticket, or do you make the interchange and take the next opportunity to pay?
Arguably if you interchanged using the overbridge, you wouldn't pass the revenue staff or any opportunity to pay, because the TVM on 13/14 also doesn't take cash.

There is no obligation to delay your onward journey to buy a ticket an intermediate station. The NRCoT states:

6.1 You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your only available method of payment (card or cash); and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply from that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares; or
6.1.2 The station is staffed, and you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff, or you have received a written notice or heard an audible announcement to this effect; or
6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, because
6.1.3.1 the Ticket office is closed; or
6.1.3.2 a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash); or
6.1.3.3 You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not accessible to you.

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.

INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a Ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.

 

[Starmill]

If you're interchanging at Piccadilly, paying cash, and the first opportunity to pay is these TPE staff, what happens if you have a connection to make that satisfies the minimum interchange (10 mins), and the queue for a ticket is 15 minutes? Do you have to wait and buy a ticket, but then end up behind the itinerary and in a Delay Repay grey area because you've delayed yourself to buy a ticket, or do you make the interchange and take the next opportunity to pay?
Arguably if you interchanged using the overbridge, you wouldn't pass the revenue staff or any opportunity to pay, because the TVM on 13/14 also doesn't take cash.

That would be no different than if you didn't have time because your connection became too short as a result of a late arrival in the first place.

 

[cholsey-choose]

You asked about Delay Repay though, and the minimum delay to qualify for that is 15 minutes.

But what if the train is 14 minutes late and the queue to pay is 5 minutes?

 

[AlterEgo]

But what if the train is 14 minutes late and the queue to pay is 5 minutes?

That's too bad, because Delay Repay is part of the passenger contract and is tied to the train's arrival time. You can try another, more tedious method of recovering damages though, just not Delay Repay.

 

[Starmill]

But what if the train is 14 minutes late and the queue to pay is 5 minutes?

You'd get the same compensation under Delay Repay as if you queued 5 min at your origin, and thereby missed the train and had to wait for the next one, even if that were an hour later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2025 ==

That's too bad, because Delay Repay is part of the passenger contract and is tied to the train's arrival time. You can try another, more tedious method of recovering damages though, just not Delay Repay.

Sometimes operators tried to argue that they weren't obligated to pay out under Delay Repay if delays had been "advised" at the time that the ticket was bought.

I haven't come across an argument of that nature for a very long time but it's a hypothetical. The Conditions do give a carve out for this, even if it's one that's not actually readily used since the onset of automated claim forms.

 

[cholsey-choose]

You'd get the same compensation under Delay Repay as if you queued 5 min at your origin, and thereby missed the train and had to wait for the next one, even if that were an hour later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2025 ==


Sometimes operators tried to argue that they weren't obligated to pay out under Delay Repay if delays had been "advised" at the time that the ticket was bought.

I haven't come across an argument of that nature for a very long time but it's a hypothetical. The Conditions do give a carve out for this, even if it's one that's not actually readily used since the onset of automated claim forms.

So wait are you saying if I buy a ticket for a train that is already severely delayed, then I can still get delay repay even though I knew it would be when i bought the ticket? Must admit that does feel like cheating to me!

 

[Starmill]

So wait are you saying if I buy a ticket for a train that is already severely delayed, then I can still get delay repay even though I knew it would be when i bought the ticket? Must admit that does feel like cheating to me!

I'm saying the operator might have the right to decline such a claim yes.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm saying the operator might have the right to decline such a claim yes.

Sounds like one for the contract law specialists! Does a passenger who boards and wishes to pay cash have a contract before the railway gives them the facility to pay for the ticket?

 

[island]

Sounds like one for the contract law specialists! Does a passenger who boards and wishes to pay cash have a contract before the railway gives them the facility to pay for the ticket?

Yes, the contract is formed by stepping on the train with the intent to be carried, with their consideration being the promise to pay the fare.

 

[Starmill]

Sounds like one for the contract law specialists! Does a passenger who boards and wishes to pay cash have a contract before the railway gives them the facility to pay for the ticket?

I'd say an implied contract could well exist by arriving at a station intent on travelling on a particular train, and pay on the train, if there weren't any facility to pay at the origin, and in any case very likely does exist once the train has set off with the person onboard. So it'd come down to the precise meaning of the Delay Repay policy, should the consumer choose to rely on that information, and otherwise the Conditions.

I don't think the outcome of that would be at all likely to be relevant though because the likelihood is the claim would just be paid out if it were otherwise valid. You could also make a persuasive argument that even if the conditions said compensation wasn't due in that circumstance, it's irrational for a consumer to have fewer rights just because their origin station had no means to buy a ticket. As I hinted I'm not sure there's any evidence at all of claims not being paid in those circumstances from the recent few years.

 

[Krokodil]

So wait are you saying if I buy a ticket for a train that is already severely delayed, then I can still get delay repay even though I knew it would be when i bought the ticket? Must admit that does feel like cheating to me!

If you were always intending to travel on that service then it's fine. If however you turned up at the station after a train should have departed, bought a ticket and boarded it then it would be a bit cheeky to claim for a train that you wouldn't have been able to catch had it run to time

 

[htwestern]

If you were always intending to travel on that service then it's fine. If however you turned up at the station after a train should have departed, bought a ticket and boarded it then it would be a bit cheeky to claim for a train that you wouldn't have been able to catch had it run to time

But, theoretically, what if before travelling to the station I checked online and saw it was delayed? I'd still have 'intended' to travel on that service but if I used a ticket machine the time could be after scheduled departure. I'm still late to my destination, why shouldn't I be entitled to compensation?

 

[Krokodil]

But, theoretically, what if before travelling to the station I checked online and saw it was delayed? I'd still have 'intended' to travel on that service but if I used a ticket machine the time could be after scheduled departure. I'm still late to my destination, why shouldn't I be entitled to compensation?

Sounds fine to me, though you may have to provide a convincing explanation to show that you really did always intend to catch that train, and would have been able to catch it if it were on time.

"I saw that the train I planned to catch was running 30 minutes late so stayed in the pub a bit longer before going to the station and buying my ticket" ought to be convincing enough.