Southern suburban services slower than 50 years ago.

[Horizon22]

It's noticeable over the years and as well as vs Kent services

The Sydenham stoppers are now timed to take 10 mins from NXG to London Bridge, so 5-6 mins extra on the up vs down. The London Bridge service has just got more and more unattractive.

Service frequency and passenger numbers certainly plays a part in this.

If you are running a train every 10 minutes on a line, you can run it smoothly and even accrue a 5 minute delay without any real impact on onward problems, besides potentially missing a path at a key junction (although the frequency means this is less likely to be a problem)

If you move the frequency up to every 5 minutes, a 5 minute delay causes the service behind to get delayed by a similar amount, and even the one behind that will start getting restrictive signalling. Pathing is more likely to be an issue also. It is not an issue that scales equally; a more frequent railway is a more congested one and delays exponentially increase. Passenger loading is a major element here.

If you run a reduced service with less passengers, dwells can of course be reduced, running times can be increased and performance is generally great - just look at performance in 2020 & 2021!

As a note, the booked timetable may well have been that from New Cross Gate to London Bridge, but the congestion around London Bridge / Bermondsey was notoriously bad with a number of flat crossing and trains weaving all over and there were often delays into London Bridge. Rationalising the layout - and building the Bermondsey dive-under - was a major part of the Thameslink programme.

 

[Craig1122]

As a note, the booked timetable may well have been that from New Cross Gate to London Bridge, but the congestion around London Bridge / Bermondsey was notoriously bad with a number of flat crossing and trains weaving all over and there were often delays into London Bridge. Rationalising the layout - and building the Bermondsey dive-under - was a major part of the Thameslink programme.

As proof of that (and to present an alternative to the idea that the past was better) the 1993 documentary "Old, dirty and late" is on YouTube and features the problems in that area quite extensively.

 

[Harpo]

As a note, the booked timetable may well have been that from New Cross Gate to London Bridge, but the congestion around London Bridge / Bermondsey was notoriously bad with a number of flat crossing and trains weaving all over and there were often delays into London Bridge. Rationalising the layout - and building the Bermondsey dive-under - was a major part of the Thameslink programme.

The Greenwich line to Charing Cross trains crossed the lot (5 or 6 running lines) at North Kent East and had around 6/7 minutes extra running time. Early iterations of the Thameslink layout even kept a flat junction.

 

[MontyP]

Yes, but how often are main line services crush loaded, apart from at their London termini when dwell time doesn't matter, and at how many places do they have a substantial crush load interchange on and off, like the Jubilee Line at Waterloo?

At Clapham Junction on SW suburban for sure

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Notably the Elizabeth line has 60 second dwells throughout the core, even with 3 sets of door per coach side, and they are often needed.

Are those long dwell times needed? The Elizabeth line is my local line, so I typically use it several times a week, and have done pretty much ever since it opened. I'm struggling to remember a single time when I've observed passengers still getting off/boarding the train at the end of a long dwell (other than people who have just arrived on the platform rushing to board while the train is still there). Mostly the train seems to sit uselessly in the platform for ages long after everyone who wants to get on/off has done so. From the perspective of a passenger, it looks to me like journeys through the core could comfortably be speeded up by several minutes if Elizabeth Line dwell times were more realistic.

 

[Crithylum]

Are those long dwell times needed? The Elizabeth line is my local line, so I typically use it several times a week, and have done pretty much ever since it opened. I'm struggling to remember a single time when I've observed passengers still getting off/boarding the train at the end of a long dwell (other than people who have just arrived on the platform rushing to board while the train is still there). Mostly the train seems to sit uselessly in the platform for ages long after everyone who wants to get on/off has done so. From the perspective of a passenger, it looks to me like journeys through the core could comfortably be speeded up by several minutes if Elizabeth Line dwell times were more realistic.

As someone who almost exclusively travels off-peak, I couldn't agree more. In combination with Victoria line levels of acceleration, I think the Elizabeth line core could be made quite a bit faster. Although the ability to turn a 4 minute delay at Ealing Broadway to an ontime departure from Paddington is quite useful (however this is usually due to the pedestrian driving outside the core). At least it isn't as painful as when I travel on South Western Railway

 

[Bald Rick]

Are those long dwell times needed?

Yes:

a) to absorb small delays
b) to deal with future growth without having to rewrite the (very complex) timetable.

 

[Recessio]

Yes:

a) to absorb small delays
b) to deal with future growth without having to rewrite the (very complex) timetable.

By 'future growth' does that mean projected higher ridership, so you need longer wells for extra passengers to board/alight? Or are the current long dwells "protecting" time that can be used for the dwell needed for future additional stations (Old Oak Common)?

 

[Bald Rick]

By 'future growth' does that mean projected higher ridership, so you need longer wells for extra passengers to board/alight? Or are the current long dwells "protecting" time that can be used for the dwell needed for future additional stations (Old Oak Common)?

The former.

 

[Horizon22]

As proof of that (and to present an alternative to the idea that the past was better) the 1993 documentary "Old, dirty and late" is on YouTube and features the problems in that area quite extensively.

If I recall Old, Dirty and Late featured Charing Cross more heavily - with a short section on London Bridge and mainly other bits around Southeastern metroland - but yes it’s certainly a glimpse of the reality of the past. For a start there’s brand new Networkers!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2025 ==

The former.

Although passenger numbers are already above forecast of course.

 

[Bald Rick]

Although passenger numbers are already above forecast of course.

Indeed so in terms of forecasts for 2025, but there’s a lot more future to come!

 

[Hadders]

Are those long dwell times needed? The Elizabeth line is my local line, so I typically use it several times a week, and have done pretty much ever since it opened. I'm struggling to remember a single time when I've observed passengers still getting off/boarding the train at the end of a long dwell (other than people who have just arrived on the platform rushing to board while the train is still there). Mostly the train seems to sit uselessly in the platform for ages long after everyone who wants to get on/off has done so. From the perspective of a passenger, it looks to me like journeys through the core could comfortably be speeded up by several minutes if Elizabeth Line dwell times were more realistic.

Just because people might've have finished alighting and boarding in the part of the train you're in, there could still be people alighting and boarding in another part. Elizabeth Line trains are very long.

By 'future growth' does that mean projected higher ridership, so you need longer wells for extra passengers to board/alight? Or are the current long dwells "protecting" time that can be used for the dwell needed for future additional stations (Old Oak Common)?

My casual observations suggest there's loads of housing being built all along the line. That alone will result in many, many more passengers of the years.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I've created a new thread here for the discussion about Elizabeth line dwell times https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...be-speeded-up-by-reducing-dwell-times.290292/

 

[BRX]

Why is it that there's such a long delay, on some trains, between coming to a halt and the doors opening? Is it because someone has to manually check that it's stopped in the correct location?

 

[Falcon1200]

Major disruptions very rare, only after heavy snow or a derailment eg freight train at Streatham common 1965.

Alternatively, I would contend that unlike now we just did not know about major disruption, unless the cause was a serious accident or we were personally affected. For example, I have read on this Forum today about serious issues in recent days on both the WCML and the ECML, the latter of which is ongoing. Living in Scotland and not planning to travel on either route it is highly unlikely I would have been aware of these without the internet!

 

[Peter stanley]

Alternatively, I would contend that unlike now we just did not know about major disruption, unless the cause was a serious accident or we were personally affected. For example, I have read on this Forum today about serious issues in recent days on both the WCML and the ECML, the latter of which is ongoing. Living in Scotland and not planning to travel on either route it is highly unlikely I would have been aware of these without the internet!

The internet is certainly a major step forward regarding travelling as we can check for cancellations, delays etc. before leaving home whereas before you just turned up at the station and hoped everything was ok. Having said that, any major problems affecting large numbers of trains were usually mentioned on the radio.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2025 ==

Alternatively, I would contend that unlike now we just did not know about major disruption, unless the cause was a serious accident or we were personally affected. For example, I have read on this Forum today about serious issues in recent days on both the WCML and the ECML, the latter of which is ongoing. Living in Scotland and not planning to travel on either route it is highly unlikely I would have been aware of these without the internet!

Compared to what I remember from 1970s, a lot of the disruption today is due to "trespassers on the railway" so either this problem has increased or if it did happen in the 1970s is didn't cause the whole line to grind to a halt.

 

[sh24]

Why is it that there's such a long delay, on some trains, between coming to a halt and the doors opening? Is it because someone has to manually check that it's stopped in the correct location?

Yes - the ceremony of the doors.

 

[Millsy_2102]

How long is Victoria-Brighton now? I remember in slam door/Connex days, this could be done in under 50min with one stop at East Croydon. Obviously this was pre-Thameslink

Depends on what you're talking about, my dad drives that route on both Southern and Gatwick Express.
Southern and GX both take about an hour, he said GX is a bit of a scam for tourists who think they're getting a quicker journey. Gatwick Express is a bit stupid if you ask me.

 

[PGAT]

Depends on what you're talking about, my dad drives that route on both Southern and Gatwick Express.
Southern and GX both take about an hour, he said GX is a bit of a scam for tourists who think they're getting a quicker journey. Gatwick Express is a bit stupid if you ask me.

Indeed GX generally scheduled 62 minutes end to end while the equivalent Southern service on Sundays takes 66 with 4 extra stops. If you were to extend it to the weekday you could ditch the stops at Burgess Hill and Hassocks now that the Littlehampton trains stop there instead and you could get an equal journey time.

 

[Bikeman78]

As someone who almost exclusively travels off-peak, I couldn't agree more. In combination with Victoria line levels of acceleration, I think the Elizabeth line core could be made quite a bit faster. Although the ability to turn a 4 minute delay at Ealing Broadway to an ontime departure from Paddington is quite useful (however this is usually due to the pedestrian driving outside the core). At least it isn't as painful as when I travel on South Western Railway

It doesn't help that the line to Guildford via Cobham seems to have the leaf fall timetable all year round now. The result is a fair bit of hanging about, or early departures until the crew spot that they are running early.