Sam 76
Member
I think some slack has to be given for the last couple of days. A lot of stock including 331s, 195s and 777s have struggled with the heat in the area.
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Transport for Wales Class 230
- Thread starter CaergwrleKen
- Start date
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WirralLine
Member
A door fault rather than anything technical or heat related.
- Joined
- 13 Dec 2018
- Messages
- 4,583
So another decent period of time with no failures then?
Zontar
Member
If a week without a failure is good for the 230s, then yes.
Zontar
Member
230 009 failed today and taken out of service
Anonymous10
Established Member
Appears to still be running on realtimetrains.co.uk
Zontar
Member
Attachments
Anonymous10
Established Member
Back out as of 6:20 am this morning, apologies only saw the today on the top of your post and didn't read the time.
Reopened for @WirralLine to provide an update on reliability. No speculation please. 
WirralLine
Member
Thank you!Reopened for @WirralLine to provide an update on reliability. No speculation please.
After initially promising reliability improvements following the modifications, reliability has taken a plunge recently. There have been multiple failures and cancellations almost daily, not just on hot days either. Yesterday for example 230008 had to return to the depot, 230009 was summoned to replace it but failed before it left the depot. 230007 failed last night leaving the last 2 Wrexham bound services and last Bidston bound service cancelled. 230006 was brought out to allow the 2258 BID-WRX to run but derailed leaving the depot (not strictly a 230 failure!).
This morning only 1x230 was available for service, as a result no unit was available to rescue it if it failed so all 3 diagrams were covered short notice by 197s.
As of 1600 2x 230 units are ready and coming out to allow 197s to be released elsewhere.
The majority of these failures all seem to be genset related.
Was the derailment of 006 the reason there were no Merseyrail services to West Kirby or New Brighton earlier this morning? The reason given was an operational problem at the depot.
There do, sadly (or annoyingly if you're stuck on a platform waiting in the sun), seem to have been regular failures recently, along with the usual issues that trouble this line - another bridge strike this afternoon, for example. I suspect that some passengers, unaware of the reasons for cancellations will quickly blame the 230s. They have a huge reputation issue to overcome, as well as the technical ones.
With regard to the gensets - can the train continue if one out of the four goes down, or is it "all or nothing"?
There do, sadly (or annoyingly if you're stuck on a platform waiting in the sun), seem to have been regular failures recently, along with the usual issues that trouble this line - another bridge strike this afternoon, for example. I suspect that some passengers, unaware of the reasons for cancellations will quickly blame the 230s. They have a huge reputation issue to overcome, as well as the technical ones.
With regard to the gensets - can the train continue if one out of the four goes down, or is it "all or nothing"?
Chris125
Established Member
I've been keeping an eye on RTT since the thread was locked and reliability had been looking pretty good to me, I've seen nothing to suggest cancellations are 'almost daily'. As the 484s were struggling on the hottest days with reduced power needing unit swaps it may not even be wholly down to gensets either.
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WirralLine
Member
Yes the derailment damaged power cables for the 3rd rail supply apparently.
They can continue with 1 genset out but once they lose more than that they tend to go down rapidly. Once that low battery light comes on its pretty much game over!
Most the time it seems to be overcome with a swop at Birkenhead rather than a cancellation. 197s have been covering a couple of diagrams occasionally too. Availability of 1/5 this morning for example isn't good!
I was under the impression from a contact that today’s availability was because one was still outside the depot, one was obviously needing to be rerailed, but overnight depot work on the other three had been halted due to the derailment so they couldn’t be made ready in time even if the route off the depot was clear.
That said, when I was out and about yesterday morning I saw all three units with a white light on the side at some point, which I’m led to believe is some sort of fault indicator? (I’m more used to orange ones!)
Chris125
Established Member
Seems a bit unfair to judge availability when there's a derailment blocking the depot, and the occasional 197 or unit swap is a world away from where we were pre genset mods thankfully.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Agree with that Chris. Unforeseen circumstances.
Wonder how much longer, if never, there needs to be a "breakdown recovery" unit needed whenever a 230 is in traffic. In theory five units for two diagrams should be adequate
It's actually 3 diagrams since the increased service was introduced. There is a 197 covering one of the diagrams today, but normally the 230s cover them all.
I'm not sure how easy it would be to rescue a 230 with anything other than a 230 - their couplings are not compatible with anything else operating in the area
Technically it's more "another 230 needed to rescue", than a breakdown recovery unit. As long as there's 2 available, and both in service, one can rescue the other if needed.
It's worth noting that there haven't actually been many complete 230s failures that need rescuing. They are constantly being monitored and issues captured before failure.
WirralLine
Member
The issue being they were down to 1 working unit (006) before the derailment - the rest had been pulled in already. Originally all the late night services had been cancelled. They only reinstated the 2258 from Bidston because 006 was still working and they'd managed to sort out another (008?) too as a backup. Ignoring the fact 006 then derailed, availability of 2/5 units is pretty poor - to be dropping this low when we went through a good phase of units working quite well is disappointing.
Regarding earlier comments about white bodyside lights - yes each coach has one, it indicates a fault on that coach. Not necessarily a genset or battery issue, but more often than not it is. If theres only one lit they tend to carry on, once 2 come on and cant be cleared they tend get the unit back to the depot.
I should have been clearer about a "rescue" unit. They dont need a 230 sitting around on the depot just waiting to be called to rescue, as @Caaardiff says they just need at least 2 available incase one fails. I cant remember the last time this actually happened though, its just a failsafe as nothing else can rescue them.
Chris125
Established Member
Without knowing why the units weren't available and how much the derailment impacted their ability to recover things I still don't think it's fair to judge, it would be a remarkable coincidence!
WirralLine
Member
Friend of mine who works at North depot said they were swapping gensets around, agreed the derailment may have initially impacted the work schedule, however - today there are only 2x230 available, 1 diagram cancelled all day as no 197s spare to cover, capacity needed elsewhere being a Saturday - it's the diagram that finishes at Wrexham Central around 1850. One of the units that is out hasn't been trouble free today either (007).
DannyMich2018
Member
- Joined
- 19 Dec 2018
- Messages
- 940
Also worth noting that the 67/Mk4 availability and reliability has been abysmal with frequent breakdowns and failures recently too, for example only 2 out of 4 diagrams are covered today so 197s streched.
WirralLine
Member
I've not been keeping up to date with the MK4 availability but I know there have been a few breakdowns recently - as you say, really stretching the 197 fleet!
RacsoMoquette
Member
Ultimately are the TFW Class 230s reliability figures improving as of recently? I wonder how long the passengers and the local councils will put up with this sub-standard service? It may be more effective to just replace the Class 230 fleet entirely? Maybe they could be converted 3rd rail to bolster Island Line?
Anonymous10
Established Member
Even if its decided to replace them would likely be a year or two for more trains to be brought in if its 197s, which themselves aren't great for the line. The line really needs Metro type stock like the class 398 (though maybe not the lack of a wc).
Chris125
Established Member
It's not perfect but despite 230s working all 3 diagrams this thread remained locked for over a month with nothing of note to report and even the current situation is complicated by a depot derailment, that's a vast improvement over the situation earlier this year. That said micro fleets are never ideal for cost and reliability but I suspect the loco hauled fleet is a far greater concern at the moment (and Island Line is perfectly fine with 5 units!).
Zontar
Member
The thread was locked, so of course there was nothing reported. Doesn't mean there hasn't been problems, and there has.
There have been regular cancellations and units taken out of service, the derailment was just another incident.
Anyone who is an enthusiast wants these to work well. Anyone who pays tax wants these to work, as the cost of these things is being paid for by you and me.
But the reality is, for all their many pros, they simply aren't reliable, no matter what you say in here. My dad uses this line and I read your comments and he just laughed and suggested you come and try and rely on this line for a week and see if your opinion changes.
Saturday was the Eisteddfod with plenty of people travelling, the pride of Wales. Except we had a reduced service as not all the 230s available....they needed charging. What an embarrassment they are.
WirralLine
Member
Agreed. Mods were promised to improve reliability, they did, briefly. The gensets are constantly revving at max with fans roaring, deafening if you're stood next to them. Sitting at high revs constantly (even when stationary) with tiny radiators and no airflow as the gensets themselves live inside a steel box. They didn't do that before the mods, but im sure if i sat in my car and held the revs high whilst stationary for a long period of time it would overheat too!