Break of journey

[exile]

What's the reason for the secrecy around breaks of journey? Having tried a couple of different online vendors for the same journey to find conflicting advice for exactly the same ticket - and then going to the National Rail website to find that I have to phone to find out (presumably after buying the ticket!). Apparently the general conditions for off-peak savers can be trumped by the conditions for a particular journey - for pete's sake why????? Surely it's a matter of no interest to a TOC as long as I've paid for the journey?

 

[John @ home]

It used to be just as bad as you describe. Fortunately, ATOC placed (almost) all the Restrictions on their web site a few months ago and it is now possible to find out whether break of journey is allowed in any particular instance. See Off Peak Restriction Codes and Advance Restriction Codes.

This process is still unnecessarily cumbersome. If you're having difficulty with a particular journey, tell us the details and we'll post a worked example.

 

[SS4]

Au contraire, it's in a TOC's interest to ban break of journey [BoJ] completely as it would mean you have to buy more tickets should you wish to break your journey. BoJ restrictions were designed because, IMO, people were buying long distance tickets at off-peak rates to avoid peak restrictions and simply stopping short (hence the recent negative easement forbidding Newark(?) ticket holders stopping short at Nottingham)

BoJ isn't really all that complicated though - in general anytime and off-peak tickets allow BoJ whereas advance tickets disallow it.



Condition 16 of the NRCoC is interesting in this case:

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you
want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. ...in which case the relevant
Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.

AFAIK this has never been tested in court yet the LM Super Off-Peak apparently disallows BoJ but since the only place I've seen this is in Avantix (and nowhere prominent on LM's site) I would argue that it's hardly clear.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Remember though, it says in the NRCoC that you can only be excessed to a fare which allows BoJ - not charged for a new ticket

Also it is not considered BoJ if you don't leave station premises or cannot complete your journey in one night.

 

[yorkie]

I agree with what you are saying but I suggest you ask the DfT and ATOC that question. You could also write to your MP about the issue. If you do write, feel free to PM me for any assistance with proof reading to ensure the letter is difficult for them to dismiss.

It is worth noting that before 'simplification' the rules on Break of Journey (BOJ) for 'walk-up' tickets were:
BOJ was not permitted on the outward portion of (Super) Saver tickets
BOJ was permitted for the outward portion of all other ticket types, and the return portion of all ticket types.

Now the rules have been 'simplified' and you are supposed to call National Rail because each ticket can be different. In reality, The Manual says that BOJ is permitted for the return portion of all tickets but this information is not in the public domain. The restrictions on all other tickets are in Avantix and The Manual but again this is not made freely available.

ATOC claim that the conditions are 'the same across all companies nationwide' however some companies choose to bar BOJ on some of their tickets, but most permit it.

Although in theory all Off Peak tickets should be checked for this restriction, as far as I am aware no 'CDS'/'CDR' (formerly Cheap Day Single/Return, now Off Peak Day Single / Return) tickets have this restriction, only the tickets without the Day suffix might have such a restriction.

ATOC say this is simple. We can all make up our own minds on whether to agree with this claim or not. If you disagree, you could consider writing to the Advertising Standards Agency.

 

[exile]

That's useful info, thanks. It would be useful if the ticket codes could be displayed when you're buying a ticket online- can't remember seeing this. I accept a "restricted" ticket is going to have rules around breaks of journey - but an "open" one should IMO allow a BoJ.
In my case I'm thinking of breaking a journey at Birmingham on the way back from Lichfield to Liverpool - clearly I have to change, I just wondered if I can exit New St for a quick walk round the city centre between trains. But I guess I either have to phone (and hope the operator knows the answer) or buy a ticket and look at the code.

 

[SS4]

That's useful info, thanks. It would be useful if the ticket codes could be displayed when you're buying a ticket online- can't remember seeing this. I accept a "restricted" ticket is going to have rules around breaks of journey - but an "open" one should IMO allow a BoJ.
In my case I'm thinking of breaking a journey at Birmingham on the way back from Lichfield to Liverpool - clearly I have to change, I just wondered if I can exit New St for a quick walk round the city centre between trains. But I guess I either have to phone (and hope the operator knows the answer) or buy a ticket and look at the code.

Pretty much although at New St it's easy to blag to the ticket inspectors that you're going to Burger King or the NWM shop. Alternatively there is always the lift trick lol

 

[Mojo]

Now the rules have been 'simplified' and you are supposed to call National Rail because each ticket can be different. In reality, The Manual says that BOJ is permitted for the return portion of all tickets but this information is not in the public domain.

Not on all tickets, for example a number of London Midland Only Super Off-peak Returns (eg. Birmingham to London), or for example a London Midland Only CDR from London Terminals to Milton Keynes.

 

[exile]

So, I think what I need to ask is - what's the validity code for an off-peak saver Liverpool Stations to Lichfield Stations? Many thanks if anyone can find this info.

 

[SS4]

CS

I can't be bothered to type it so I'll paste when I get the pdf version. Essentially this ticket does allow BoJ both outward and return

By any train except those timed to depart
Mondays-Fridays before 0900.

This is for both the outward and return journey


edit: I have checked the SVR between LTV and LIV (does Lichfield stations even exist?)
edit2: It's the same code from Lichfield City.

 

[island]

So, I think what I need to ask is - what's the validity code for an off-peak saver Liverpool Stations to Lichfield Stations? Many thanks if anyone can find this info.

No such ticket as "off-peak saver" and no such destination as "Lichfield Stations"

Prices are the same for Lichfield City and Lichfield T V; Off-peak return (£26) restriction is CS (valid any train except M-F before 0900), off-peak day return (£21.50) restriction is B4 (valid any train except M-F before 0845), and super off-peak return (£14.50) restriction is LK (M-F not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Terminals before 1300, not valid on any northbound service timed to depart any station before 1030, not valid on any train at all that departs any station between 1630 and 1930 in any direction except the 1829 [stn]EUS[/stn]-[stn]CRE[/stn] or where a connecting service is being used to complete a journey begun at a valid time, S/S valid any train, no break of journey on either outbound or return leg except to change trains or access station facilities).

 

[John @ home]

It would be useful if the ticket codes could be displayed when you're buying a ticket online

Yes, it would help. They're not shown.

I guess I ... have to ... buy a ticket and look at the code.

That won't help. The code is not shown on the ticket either! My view is that the Restriction itself needs to be printed on the ticket.

 

[SS4]

Yes, it would help. They're not shown.That won't help. The code is not shown on the ticket either! My view is that the Restriction itself needs to be printed on the ticket.

I have to agree, it can't be that hard to stick two characters on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not on all tickets, for example a number of London Midland Only Super Off-peak Returns (eg. Birmingham to London), or for example a London Midland Only CDR from London Terminals to Milton Keynes.

That is true but I'd like to see LM challenged using section 16 of the CoC for I cannot understand how such a restriction is clearly shown in their publications.

 

[exile]

Yes, it would help. They're not shown.That won't help. The code is not shown on the ticket either! My view is that the Restriction itself needs to be printed on the ticket.

Errrr - that would help, certainly. It might even help the poor member of staff who has to decide whether to let you off the station - assuming your break point has staff or it's not so busy they just wave everyone through!

BTW Lichfield Stations was offered as an option by at least one of the online ticket sites....

I'm sure the good old ABC guide showed validity codes.

Anyway I now know I'll be buying a code CS which puts me in the clear I think!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No such ticket as "off-peak saver" and no such destination as "Lichfield Stations"

Prices are the same for Lichfield City and Lichfield T V; Off-peak return (£26) restriction is CS (valid any train except M-F before 0900), off-peak day return (£21.50) restriction is B4 (valid any train except M-F before 0845), and super off-peak return (£14.50) restriction is LK (M-F not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Terminals before 1300, not valid on any northbound service timed to depart any station before 1030, not valid on any train at all that departs any station between 1630 and 1930 in any direction except the 1829 [stn]EUS[/stn]-[stn]CRE[/stn] or where a connecting service is being used to complete a journey begun at a valid time, S/S valid any train, no break of journey on either outbound or return leg except to change trains or access station facilities).

Thanks for the info! I should be able to arrange my return trip so I can take my Mum to Digbeth to put her on her coach. I wonder how the "no break" rule can be applied in practice in the case of bailing out early on a no-BoJ ticket eg at Runcorn on the return trip. I've been getting off at Runcorn for decades and have never had my ticket checked - in fact other than at stations with barriers no-one's checked my ticket exiting a station since BR days.....

 

[DaveNewcastle]

My view is that the Restriction itself needs to be printed on the ticket.

I share that view.
However, I would be content if the restrictions were made clear in some other forms, such as in a supplimentary leaflet, a verbal explanation at the POS, a simple 'code' referring to widely displayed tables of the restrictions against each code (avail to all saff and pax at all stations) and other on-line equivalents.
They are not.

But my deeper concern is that the Restrictions as currently applied are so convoluted, inconsisent, prone to ad-hoc changes and to scheduled changes, and in extreme cases are ambiguous, that they are incapable of being construed as a binding condition on any passenger (and equally incabable of being enforced with confidence by staff or those contenious 3rd party Security personnel at certain stations). In fact, the difficultly in having the actual conditions presented in a simple enough form for staff to follow is crucially damning.

If the restriction is not printed on the ticket (or accompanying docs or verbally at the PoS) and is not clear in the public realm, then they really must be treated as transitory works of fiction. I'll quote again from the venerable Lord Denning, Master of the Rolls: "I agree that the more unreasonable a clause is, the greater the notice which must be given of it. Some clauses which I have seen would need to be printed in red ink on the face of the document with a red hand pointing to it before the notice could be held to be sufficient." Spurling vs Bradshaw (1956).
. . . and . . .
from Parker vs South Eastern Railway (1877).
Parker was handed a ticket with Condidtions printed on the back. The trial concerned whether he could have been expected to know there were conditions on the back and to have read them and to have accepted them. Lord Justice Mellish on Appeal: "I am of opinion, therefore, that the proper direction to leave to the jury in these cases is, that if the person receiving the ticket did not see or know that there was any writing on the ticket, he is not bound by the conditions; that if he knew there was writing, and knew or believed that the writing contained conditions, then he is bound by the conditions; that if he knew there was writing on the ticket, but did not know or believe that the writing contained conditions, nevertheless he would be bound, if the delivering of the ticket to him in such a manner that he could see there was writing upon it, was, in the opinion of the jury, reasonable notice that the writing contained conditions."

I find that to be clear enough - we don't need to look at recent consumer legislation for further assistance - "that if the person receiving the ticket did not see or know that there was any writing on the ticket, he is not bound by the conditions"

 

[causton]

I share that view.
However, I would be content if the restrictions were made clear in some other forms, such as in a supplimentary leaflet, a verbal explanation at the POS, a simple 'code' referring to widely displayed tables of the restrictions against each code (avail to all saff and pax at all stations) and other on-line equivalents.

Verbal? Shouting across the station "YOU CANNOT BREAK YOUR JOURNEY"?

In all seriousness, a box that comes up when you order tickets at a TVM would suffice.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . made clear in some other forms, such as in a supplimentary leaflet, a verbal explanation at the POS, a simple 'code' referring to widely displayed tables of the restrictions against each code (avail to all saff and pax at all stations) and other on-line equivalents.
They are not.

Verbal? Shouting across the station "YOU CANNOT BREAK YOUR JOURNEY"?

I meant (by "a verbal explanation at the POS") an explanation by the Ticket Office Clerk when selling the ticket over counter. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear when illustrating one of many ways by which Conditions could be brought to the attention of any reasonable ticket-buying rail traveller.

 

[Old Timer]

......If the restriction is not printed on the ticket (or accompanying docs or verbally at the PoS) and is not clear in the public realm, then they really must be treated as transitory works of fiction. I'll quote again from the venerable Lord Denning, Master of the Rolls: "I agree that the more unreasonable a clause is, the greater the notice which must be given of it. Some clauses which I have seen would need to be printed in red ink on the face of the document with a red hand pointing to it before the notice could be held to be sufficient." Spurling vs Bradshaw (1956).
. . . and . . .
from Parker vs South Eastern Railway (1877).
Parker was handed a ticket with Condidtions printed on the back. The trial concerned whether he could have been expected to know there were conditions on the back and to have read them and to have accepted them. Lord Justice Mellish on Appeal: "I am of opinion, therefore, that the proper direction to leave to the jury in these cases is, that if the person receiving the ticket did not see or know that there was any writing on the ticket, he is not bound by the conditions; that if he knew there was writing, and knew or believed that the writing contained conditions, then he is bound by the conditions; that if he knew there was writing on the ticket, but did not know or believe that the writing contained conditions, nevertheless he would be bound, if the delivering of the ticket to him in such a manner that he could see there was writing upon it, was, in the opinion of the jury, reasonable notice that the writing contained conditions."

I find that to be clear enough - we don't need to look at recent consumer legislation for further assistance - "that if the person receiving the ticket did not see or know that there was any writing on the ticket, he is not bound by the conditions"

Not correct.

The front of the ticket has the terms "Route" and "Validity" printed together with a summary. For example Route "VWC and connectn" or "Any Permitted" and Validity "One Month"" or "See Restrictions". What part of this is not clear ??

If I recall without checking, the Denning Judgement was against Ts and Cs that were written in very small letters and very difficult to see as well as being well placed out of the way, it was not against any Railway ticket and is not comparable on that basis.

Do you REALLY think these things have not been challenged before, and pray tell at WHAT point is the passenger expected to engage brains, eyes, and ears ? Indeed whilst people continually harp on about "Fairness" and "unfair terms", etc, etc, the OFT have validated the NCoC, and this includes the manner in which restrictions are publicised.

I can assure you that some of the points pushed regularly on the forum would get you laughed out of any airline or coach operator's office - and these are the most comparable alternatives.

 

[tony_mac]

at WHAT point is the passenger expected to engage brains, eyes, and ears ?

Do you mean "I can look after myself so screw anyone that can't"?
And you can't use eyes and ears to read things that aren't written and hear things that aren't said.

Indeed whilst people continually harp on about "Fairness" and "unfair terms", etc, etc, the OFT have validated the NCoC, and this includes the manner in which restrictions are publicised.

OFT guidance, the manner in which restrictions are published and the law have all changed since they last looked at the CoC, as well as other legal judgements.

The fact that the OfT did not force a change then does not automatically mean that it is ok now (or even that it was then).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Just a small note, ticket validities can be seen, in relation to the ticket they apply, on the National Rail Enquiries site, although it does require you to look at a page that isn't entirely obvious.

....My view is that the Restriction itself needs to be printed on the ticket.

Can you imagine if the restrictions in validity code 2C were printed, in full, on the ticket? The print would have to be so small you couldn't read it.

 

[Dreadnought]

Condition 16 of the NRCoC is interesting in this case:



AFAIK this has never been tested in court yet the LM Super Off-Peak apparently disallows BoJ but since the only place I've seen this is in Avantix (and nowhere prominent on LM's site) I would argue that it's hardly clear.

Although BoJ is apparently not allowed on LM Super Off Peak Returns I have done it on several occasions with no issues at Watford Junction on RUG-EUS journeys!

 

[cuccir]

Just a small note, ticket validities can be seen, in relation to the ticket they apply, on the National Rail Enquiries site, although it does require you to look at a page that isn't entirely obvious.

Hitcheiker's Guide to the Galaxy just about handles how easy it is to find the validity codes :

"'But the plans were on display.'
'On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.'
'That's the display department.'
'With a torch.'
'Ah, well the lights had probably gone.'
'So had the stairs.'
'But look you found the notice didn't you?'
'Yes,' said Arthur, 'yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of The Leopard".' "

Can you imagine if the restrictions in validity code 2C were printed, in full, on the ticket? The print would have to be so small you couldn't read it.

But surely it would be very very very easy to:

* Print the code
* Provide a clear link at National Rail Enquiries to the validity codes
* At bigger stations, have a printed booklet with the codes in them.

Frankly, at the moment, access to validity codes is obtuse. A casual traveller, or even a regular commuter with no specialist rail interest, is unlikely to be aware of their existence. By at least printing the code, travellers might become aware of them!

 

[Dreadnought]

Just a small note, ticket validities can be seen, in relation to the ticket they apply, on the National Rail Enquiries site, although it does require you to look at a page that isn't entirely obvious

I remember you pointing out to me how you could find these on NRE and it is a long winded way to go to show restrictions and I'm sure many people would never know how to actually find them.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Hitcheiker's Guide to the Galaxy just about handles how easy it is to find the validity codes :

"But the plans were on display.'
On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.'
'That's the display department.'
'With a torch.'
'Ah, well the lights had probably gone.'
'So had the stairs.'
'But look you found the notice didn't you?'
'Yes,' said Arthur, 'yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of The Leopard".'" "....

Yeah, you gotta love that book!

....But surely it would be very very very easy to:

* Print the code
* Provide a clear link at National Rail Enquiries to the validity codes
* At bigger stations, have a printed booklet with the codes in them.

Frankly, at the moment, access to validity codes is obtuse. A casual traveller, or even a regular commuter with no specialist rail interest, is unlikely to be aware of their existence. By at least printing the code, travellers might become aware of them!

Print the code? maybe, but most people still wouldn't understand it (because most don't really look at their tickets), even with a simple piece of paper to refer to. I dare say people (generally) don't read the conditions cards (where given) they get with some tickets.

Imo, NRES should already have a clear link, but it isn't clear and that is an issue.

Why only have a leaflet (frankly, a leaflet wouldn't cover it, you'd need a book!) at bigger stations? what about everywhere else? or atleast the other manned stations? The idea that they are only needed at larger stations is wrong imo.

I remember you pointing out to me how you could find these on NRE and it is a long winded way to go to show restrictions and I'm sure many people would never know how to actually find them.

Not neccesarily long winded, it certainly could be made quicker, but it is quite well hidden.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Can you imagine if the restrictions in validity code 2C were printed, in full, on the ticket? The print would have to be so small you couldn't read it.

I think that was sort of DaveNewcastle's point, though. If the restrictions are so complicated to the extent that it is difficult to convey their meaning to an intending passenger, then it draws into question whether they are capable of being enforced.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It's not a case of being complicated (atleast no more than usual), just long with lots of information for different routes.

 

[jkdd77]

Whilst I would never condone or recommend deliberately breaking the T & Cs of a ticket, I cannot help but note that, if a Liverpool- Tamworth Super Off-Peak Return [which has restriction code LK preventing BoJ on both legs] is purchased from a trainline-based website, and link on the link to the "ticket restrictions" for the ticket purchased, as described by the website, it states:

"BREAK OF JOURNEY
You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel."

If I didn't know better, I would naturally assume that BoJ was permitted, and indeed potentially enter into the contract for travel on the specific basis that I wished to break my journey, and that BoJ was permitted.

The NRCOC permits BoJ restrictions provided they are "made clear".

The precise wording from NRCOC 16 is:
However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.

I'm not sure this could reasonably be said to apply to the well-hidden and opaque restrictions on BoJ on "flexible" tickets, especially so as some tickets even have different BoJ restrictions depending on the actual route travelled on for that ticket.

For example, I am told by East Coast that a London-Glasgow Off-Peak Return
permits BoJ when routed via Kings Cross or Stevenage. This is as I expected, and presumably because this ticket takes restriction code 5F (forbidding BoJ on the outward leg) if routed other than via Kings Cross or St Pancras. If routed via St Pancras, it takes restriction code 9J (permitting BoJ on both legs) and if routed via Kings Cross, it takes restriction code 9F (again permitting BoJ).

In response to Yorkie's claim that all Off-Peak Day Returns permit BoJ; this is no longer true since "Simplification"; a Rugby- London 'London Midland only' Off-Peak Day Return has restriction code SK, which prohibits BoJ on both legs, (although, once again, the conditions listed trainline-based websites will tell the purchaser that BoJ is always permitted on Off-Peak Day Returns)

This is ludicrously complicated and difficult to enforce in practice, especially if a passenger claims to be merely "stopping off to use station facilities", which does not count as a BoJ.

 

[CheshirePaul]

I'm jumping on this thread hoping someone can help me regarding a BOJ on tickets I have allready purchased for a journey next week.

Traveling from Nantwich (Cheshire ) to Birmingham New St. I have purchased them off LM with the half price rail offer. I understand that i can use the route either via Crewe or via Shrewsbury. On the tickets they say ' STD half fare SVR ' Route any permitted.

Can I make a BOJ at Wolverhampton with this ticket, what ever way I route, both via Crewe or Shrewsbury trains will stop there.

Many thanks.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm jumping on this thread hoping someone can help me regarding a BOJ on tickets I have allready purchased for a journey next week.

Traveling from Nantwich (Cheshire ) to Birmingham New St. I have purchased them off LM with the half price rail offer. I understand that i can use the route either via Crewe or via Shrewsbury. On the tickets they say ' STD half fare SVR ' Route any permitted.

Can I make a BOJ at Wolverhampton with this ticket, what ever way I route, both via Crewe or Shrewsbury trains will stop there.

Many thanks.

Yes, as per the normal rules for SVRs.

Validity code is CS:

Outward
By any train except those timed to depart Mondays-Fridays before 0900.

Return
By any train except those timed to depart Mondays-Fridays before 0900.

 

[cuccir]

Print the code? maybe, but most people still wouldn't understand it (because most don't really look at their tickets), even with a simple piece of paper to refer to. I dare say people (generally) don't read the conditions cards (where given) they get with some tickets.

True enough, but then plenty of people don't understand the current codes ("STD", "Y-P" "OUT" "EC & CONNECTIONS" etc). As it takes little room, I see no disadvantage to printing this. At the very least, it means if handed to a member off staff they can quickly look up the restrictions, rather than having to first check the code then the restrictions.

Why only have a leaflet (frankly, a leaflet wouldn't cover it, you'd need a book!) at bigger stations? what about everywhere else? or atleast the other manned stations? The idea that they are only needed at larger stations is wrong imo.

I was really just thinking from pragmatics, as in the cost of printing and distributing these things. I agree, though, ideally you'd have it at all stations!

 

[island]

On the tickets they say ' STD half fare SVR ' Route any permitted.

I very much doubt "STD half fare SVR" is printed on any ticket!