National Rail and ticket prices

[Arriva 175]

Hi all, Im recently new on here.

Im a conductor for Arriva Trains Wales and was working a train to Chester last night from Manchester.

A customer asked me for a next day return from Frodsham to Chester and no such fare exists. When i told him he'd have to purchase two £4.70 singles the reply was that National Rail said a saver return was £4.80. I told him this was a cheap day return/off peak and is only valid till 2.30am. Customer was adamant and kept quoting National Rail. Apparently my Avantix was wrong!!!!

I took the time to check the website on my rest break and the fare they quoted for £4.80 was the cheap day ticket. The customer had clearly misread this. Id personally prefer if ticket prices werent posted on the website as it only causes arguments.

As a conductor I find National Rail to be infuriating for mis information at the best of times and find it insulting that despite my 6 months of training im told I know nothing by people who are ill advised. Are there other users who have had similar arguments?

 

[First class]

Unrelated note, it is interesting that the CDR has actually been reduced!

In NFM08, the CDR was £5.20, NFM09 changed to £4.80.

Actually, ALL of the fares on this flow got reduced last round, except the 7DS.



Think it would be a bit odd for NRES not to offer fares information!

 

[SS4]

As a conductor I find National Rail to be infuriating for mis information at the best of times and find it insulting that despite my 6 months of training im told I know nothing by people who are ill advised. Are there other users who have had similar arguments?

I just think you had an unreasonable passenger. The NRES should keep it's fair info as it's certainly the most neutral of booking engines (although takethetrain could soon usurp it) and certainly the most well known.
However, any reasonable passenger would accept that the conductor knows best

 

[Arriva 175]

Unrelated note, it is interesting that the CDR has actually been reduced!

In NFM08, the CDR was £5.20, NFM09 changed to £4.80.

Actually, ALL of the fares on this flow got reduced last round, except the 7DS.



Think it would be a bit odd for NRES not to offer fares information!

A standard day return is £5.20 and a cheap day is £4.80. I always found that Frodsham to Chester is a bit expensive anyway compared to a Chester to Liverpool for £4 odd. The joys of subsidy I guess.

I just think you had an unreasonable passenger. The NRES should keep it's fair info as it's certainly the most neutral of booking engines (although takethetrain could soon usurp it) and certainly the most well known.
However, any reasonable passenger would accept that the conductor knows best

I suppose NRES offering fare info is great when read correctly as it means people know the minimum amout of money to have at an unstaffed station. Last nights wasnt read correctly however. Most of my gripes with National Rail are over its connection information. Not sure if anyone is familiar with Earlestown but its a 5 platform station with platforms on all three sides of a triangle. A young woman with children was told by National Rail to change there for Patricroft involving walking down a footpath and over a bridge. I advised her to remain on board as Newton le Willows is only round the corner and all Manchester bound trains leave there from the same platform.

 

[bnm]

I just think you had an unreasonable passenger. The NRES should keep it's fair info as it's certainly the most neutral of booking engines

NRES is not a booking engine. You cannot buy tickets from it. You are directed to the most appropriate TOC's booking engine when you click on 'Buy' following a 'Train Times & Tickets' query.

 

[yorkie]

Id personally prefer if ticket prices werent posted on the website as it only causes arguments....

I strongly disagree for so many reasons! Surely the solution is for the information to be available in easier to read formats? The National Rail site is so much harder to use than Avantix Traveller, in my experience. Yet ATOC don't seem to want us let loose with Avantix without paying a roughly 10 pounds admin fee (roughly the same as what they charge to change a ticket), plus P&P and VAT, for a CD.

People misreading the site is clearly a big problem and inaccurate information given out by the call centre is an issue too. Yet ATOC are in complete denial about these issues and constantly ensure that surveys are run that ask the most basic questions that then give favourable results to ATOC that indicate a ludicrously high percentage of queries are dealt with effectively. Their statistics are completely meaningless and it's nothing more than a box-ticking exercise by the DfT in cahoots with ATOC to pretend that everything is wonderful, when clearly to those of us 'in the know' it most certainly isn't.

 

[Arriva 175]

Couldnt agree more with your statement. Its rail staff that has to sort out the mess that National Rail creates.

 

[TicketMan]

...I find it insulting that despite my 6 months of training im told I know nothing by people who are ill advised. Are there other users who have had similar arguments?

I've had 8 years in the booking office and every day people tell me I'm wrong/the other guy sold me one yesterday/Network Rail (sic) said.../New St said.../The man on the train said.../My mate said...

Trust me you get used to it
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I strongly disagree for so many reasons! Surely the solution is for the information to be available in easier to read formats? The National Rail site is so much harder to use than Avantix Traveller, in my experience. Yet ATOC don't seem to want us let loose with Avantix without paying a roughly 10 pounds admin fee (roughly the same as what they charge to change a ticket), plus P&P and VAT, for a CD.

I agree that the fare information should be there - the downside is it's a pain in the backside when all you want is a fare and the site insists on giving you the cheapest available advance or whatever - which is fine if you aren't simply after the SDS/SOS fare :roll:

As for the other point, seems like a reasonable admin fee to me - the market for such a product is small after all - limited to industry pros, journalists and interested parties - I doubt there's much (if any) profit involved.

 

[SS4]

As for the other point, seems like a reasonable admin fee to me - the market for such a product is small after all - limited to industry pros, journalists and interested parties - I doubt there's much (if any) profit involved.

I wouldn't mind if they said it was to recoup software costs but as an admin fee is laughable. Once you've created the disc image you're laughing, burning copies onto CD-Rs costs pennies.

 

[Arriva 175]

Ive been on the railways for 4 years. Started as barrier staff and been a conductor for last 2 and I still cant get used to it. :roll:

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Shouldn't the question be why are there not period return fares on all routes? Having to buy two singles is not logical to the average passenger.

(Although under the same logic it seems strange to the average passenger that for most long-distance journeys two advance singles is normally the cheaper option, despite offering the customer more flexibility than having to buy a return to/from the same stations.)

 

[TicketMan]

Shouldn't the question be why are there not period return fares on all routes? Having to buy two singles is not logical to the average passenger.

(Although under the same logic it seems strange to the average passenger that for most long-distance journeys two advance singles is normally the cheaper option, despite offering the customer more flexibility than having to buy a return to/from the same stations.)

Reasonable question. It used to be a specific distance where Day tickets became Open tickets (30 miles?). Doesn't seem to be so rigidly applied these days, however.

 

[island]

Shouldn't the question be why are there not period return fares on all routes? Having to buy two singles is not logical to the average passenger.

SORs aren't generally available within the NSE area (excepting airport routes and some other random ones). SVRs are often available as long as the origin or destination is outside the Travelcard zones. This probably all goes back to BR days when you didn't need an SOR in the network area because SVRs were valid on all trains (just with no BOJ on the outbound leg)!

 

[brompton rail]

With the greatest respect to both on train staff and booking office staff, mistakes can happen.

For example, on a recent journey from Doncaster to Hereford I requested an OffvPeak Return (SVR) to Hereford at the booking office. I was asked if I was travelling on XC via Birmingham New Street and replied that I was (06.00 Don - Shf, 06.50 Shf to Bhm and 08.49 onwards). I was told the fare which was the Anytime return. I asked if she was sure, as there are no time restrictions on the Hereford fare (BUT break of journey isn't allowed on the outward portion). On re-consulting her screen she apologised and offered the Off Peak return fare. Had I not had access to fare information I would have ended up paying about half as much again. I did have the Advantix printout in my pocket but didn't use it. Incidentally at no point on my journey (either on Northern/ XC or LM) was I challenged on the validity of the ticket, nor on the return via Stockport (Arriva Wales / TPE). The fare is set by TPE which is why there is a time restriction free Off Peak. XC priced Off Peak returns (say to Bristol) do carry the morning time restriction, making the useless for a day out!

 

[exile]

As in any job (including mine) the level of staff knowledge and skill varies. I know some station staff who can't cope with any ticket that isn't to a limited list of familiar destinations - to the extent customers sometimes have to help them find the ticket!

The system is just too complex for a normal human being to understand. By its nature a train or bus network is more complicated than an airline as there are many times more destinations and ways of getting from A to B and lots of extra factors such as - can I walk between stations to link up 2 legs of a journey? A computer is ideal for sorting out such complexities - but I'm not sure the current systems are up to the job - for instance, split tickets, "open jaw" journeys (Liverpool-London-return to Manchester).

 

[island]

I would beg to suggest that airline ticketing (other than on point-to-point airlines like Ryanair/EasyJet/bmibaby/FlyMayBe) is as complicated or more than railway ticketing. Feel free to ask me about it at a meet sometime

 

[TUC]

I'd personally prefer if ticket prices werent posted on the website as it only causes arguments.

As a conductor I find National Rail to be infuriating for mis information at the best of times and find it insulting that despite my 6 months of training im told I know nothing by people who are ill advised. Are there other users who have had similar arguments?

Sorry but I fundamentally disagree with your view. Alright, you had a customer that was wrong on this occeasion but are you really suggesting that every member of staff gets it right every time? And are you really suggesting that customers should be disempowered by not knowing prices so that mistakes don't get noticed?

 

[Arriva 175]

The Avantix machine provides a list of fares between the origin and destination station and the conductor should be able to tell which is the correct fare based on what is asked and the time of day. If he/she cant do that then there is a training issue somewhere.

Prices are ever changing as we all know and are also time restricted. If a price is checked on National Rail people must be 100% certain that it is correct before debating it with the conductor/ticket office if they quote a dearer ticket.

To be honest all my gripes with National Rail are over connections and not ticket prices. This particular situation got me wondering if other people had any similar arguments with conductors/passengers over prices because of National Rail information. Maybe misread or the conductor was wrong.

 

[tony_mac]

If he/she cant do that then there is a training issue somewhere.

There are lots of training issues!

If a price is checked on National Rail people must be 100% certain that it is correct before debating it with the conductor/ticket office if they quote a dearer ticket.

Why?
We all make mistakes and it is the passenger that suffers if a mistake is made, it doesn't cost you anything.
Maybe if you were fined £20 or reported for prosecution when you sold the wrong ticket then things would be a bit more even!

This particular situation got me wondering if other people had any similar arguments with conductors/passengers over prices because of National Rail information. Maybe misread or the conductor was wrong.

I think maybe most of us here have had at least one problem with staff issuing the wrong fare or not being able or williing to issue the correct ticket.

While I do understand your frustration, this perhaps isn't the best place to vent it as we tend to face the opposite problem. We have one of our members who has been penalty-fared, reported for prosection and held for over 3 hours when it was because the (vindictive) staff member didn't know the rules.

If nobody was allowed to even question staff, do you think they would get better or worse?

National Rail does show invalid routes, and does NOT make it very clear that it isn't valid.
It used to be worse, but it's still awful. They obviously don't listen to staff complaints either.

But, this is still more of a problem for the passengers as they are the ones that end up having to buy a new ticket, pay a penalty fare etc.

 

[Arriva 175]

There are lots of training issues!

Why?
We all make mistakes and it is the passenger that suffers if a mistake is made, it doesn't cost you anything.
Maybe if you were fined £20 or reported for prosecution when you sold the wrong ticket then things would be a bit more even!

If a member of staff continually makes mistakes and it is reported a P45 and not a £20 penalty fare is what they will end up getting. Surely that is far worse.

The £20 fine issued sounds like it came from an RPA and not a Conductor as I know the area you are describing well. Im sorry to hear about someone who has been messed about for no reason and not all railway staff are as hopeless.

While I do understand your frustration, this perhaps isn't the best place to vent it as we tend to face the opposite problem.

I thought this forum was for debating and listening to all sides of the coin.

 

[tony_mac]

Maybe you have too much faith in your colleagues!

In my experience, less than 50% of staff can issue a Freedom of the North West rover, and none (out of 2 or 3) could issue a Manchester Plusbus. There are lots of similar stories in these forums.

Most passengers don't complain, so who knows how often staff make a mistake? It would take a lot of accidental mistakes to get sacked for it (has this ever happened?), but each time it costs money for the passenger.

I thought this forum was for debating and listening to all sides of the coin.

Yes, indeed.
I apologise for how that looks - that was not what I meant to imply!

The point is that most people here DO know what tickets they want and whether they are valid, and frequently end up dealing with staff that don't (this also includes staff having problems with other staff).

 

[Arriva 175]

Unfortunately I dont have faith in all of my railway colleagues. But they are in the minority. I hope.

The Avantix machines used by the conductors are downloaded each night and the system is monitored by the relevant TOCs. For example if a conductor/RPA sold the wrong ticket for that time of day then it will be highlighted and if mistakes are made then disciplinary action would be taken. Traincrew are also assessed by managers on board trains and mystery shoppers are also used. If the same conductor/ticket staff cant sell you a Freedom of North West then they wont be able to do the same for a mystery shopper.

Agree with you that people on here know what they want but most of the general public dont unfortunately. Therefore the likes of National Rail is very important for information. I doubt many of the general public actually know where our railway network goes. Most TOCs only provide their own area maps and posters of the entire network dont exist in stations.

The situation I was involved in was a result of the information on the website not being provided in a better way (as i have checked) which resulted in a disagreement that should never have happened. Yes on this occasion the passenger was wrong but as has been pointed out, this is not always the case.

 

[tony_mac]

I think we certainly agree that the National Rail website does a poor job of giving important information in a readable manner.

 

[Arriva 175]

Absolutely

 

[yorkie]

Training is a big issue. New Cross Gate told me today that the only excess that is possible is where a customer accidentally purchases a single and wanted a return.

He could not find any other excess type on his system (FastTIS I think?) and was unaware that any other type of excess exists.

He was not trying to be awkward. He was just badly trained.

 

[WestCoast]

I would beg to suggest that airline ticketing (other than on point-to-point airlines like Ryanair/EasyJet/bmibaby/FlyMayBe) is as complicated or more than railway ticketing. Feel free to ask me about it at a meet sometime

All the different codes are/were a nightmare. No consistency! Although, Flybe are hardly in the simple category anymore as they do connections, interlines and codeshares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think we certainly agree that the National Rail website does a poor job of giving important information in a readable manner.

Agreed, I always use a webtis based booking engine to research fares (or NFM), can't stand NR's website for fares.

 

[AlterEgo]

Training is a big issue. New Cross Gate told me today that the only excess that is possible is where a customer accidentally purchases a single and wanted a return.

He could not find any other excess type on his system (FastTIS I think?) and was unaware that any other type of excess exists.

He was not trying to be awkward. He was just badly trained.

They don't even need to have bought the original ticket in error, either...

Excess fares are probably the ticketing area that has the widest range of staff skill and competence. Unfortunately it can be rather a lottery.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Out of curiosty, what are the rights of the passenger here? If you know 100% the price of the ticket and the guard will not sell you that ticket, what can you actually do? It seems hugely unfair to have to purchase the more expensive ticket then try to claim a refund (which is what I would assume the offical line is).

 

[AlterEgo]

Out of curiosty, what are the rights of the passenger here? If you know 100% the price of the ticket and the guard will not sell you that ticket, what can you actually do? It seems hugely unfair to have to purchase the more expensive ticket then try to claim a refund (which is what I would assume the offical line is).

I would refuse to purchase the more expensive ticket, and take a UFN if offered one.

It's important to note that a lot of customers also think they're 100% right, when they're not!

 

[WelshBluebird]

I would refuse to purchase the more expensive ticket, and take a UFN if offered one.

It's important to note that a lot of customers also think they're 100% right, when they're not!

Of course, but you can say exactly the same thing about some staff too.
As I have said a few times before, most of the time railway staff are very helpful, knowegable etc etc. But there are some who really should not be working in a customer facing job at all. I have no problem if its just lack of training, or a genuine mistake. But I do have a problem when staff are rude, fail to take any note of what I am saying and accuse me of lying.
And sadly, many people do not have the guts or knowledge to stand upto a bullying member of staff.

Of course, you do get idiot passengers too. On a journey from Exeter to Bath two weeks ago there was someone trying to argue with the train manager about using a XC only ticket on the FGW train, and that because he has been getting the same ticket for the last 2 years or so he doesn't see the problem. I am not denying you do get people like that, but I think its sad that sometimes genuine passengers have to suffer because of it.