Why are Class 700s considered unpopular?

[RailWonderer]

Pretty sure they are on all Desiros, though annoyingly the 350s now have a socket in the way.

The 380s don't, it's too sloped to put your foot on.

Wide aisles and open gangways makes it easy to move throughout the train. I don't find that noise (or smells) really travel though the train that much so it hasn't ever been a problem and more and more trains are going this way.

Physical doors usually result in some coaches becoming overcrowded and people not wanting to walk through. They also can't see other coaches as easily, and there are safety benefits of open trains too.

Going to and from Brighton on weekends, especially when the weather's good or there's football on I can't stand the 700s for not having doors between coaches and ironing boards. The seats were designed with a disdain for passengers and a lack of tables is incredible considering how many people will have laptops, food and drinks on the routes they operate. Like the IET, it was specified by the DfT but at least it rides solidly on all track at speeds of up to 100mph, far better than Electrostars do on the same track. With carpets, tables, armrests, Grammar seats and doors between coaches it would have been a perfect train.

 

[DarloRich]

In my experience, the only place they are unpopular is on enthuiasts forums.

generally agree but my step father was less than complimentary when my mum put them and the grandkids on a Thameslink service from Cambridge to Brighton and return! He said the 377 from Kings Lynn was bad enough!

 

[Bald Rick]

Cattle-class: are Thameslink's new 'tube-style' trains the future of commuting?

As the UK south-east’s rail nightmare continues, a new class of commuter trains has been quietly revealed – long, metro-style carriages without tables, built to accommodate as many standing passengers as possible. Is this the new normal?

www.theguardian.com

How hard is it to design a comfortable train seat? | The Railway Magazine

MAYBE the question should be how difficult is it, as an increasing number of passengers are finding the seats on the rising numbers of Class 700 and 800 tra ...

www.railwaymagazine.co.uk

Thameslink passengers left in pain by trains’ ‘concrete’ seats

They are the most expensive trains ever built, acclaimed by ministers as the answer to passengers’ prayers. But they are being spoilt by what could be the least

www.thetimes.com

Just a few there.

And the 319s are absolutely a false comparison, given 700s broadly replaced 377/5s and 387s.

Anything more recent?

 

[Failed Unit]

They also can't see other coaches as easily, and there are safety benefits of open trains too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2025 ==

What are these, the fact that people can see an incident happening in another part of the train and can report it?

On the negative side, lets say the train caught fire if you have a wheelchair user that can't easily be evacuted on a standard unit you could move them to the other set. However the scenario isn't low risk, I can't recall the last fire on an EMU.

 

[driverd]

Anything more recent?

Not that a quick search could find, but these articles do tend to come about when new trains arrive and there's a comparison to the old, rather than randomly halfway through their life.

 

[Hadders]

Going to and from Brighton on weekends, especially when the weather's good or there's football on I can't stand the 700s for not having doors between coaches and ironing boards. The seats were designed with a disdain for passengers and a lack of tables is incredible considering how many people will have laptops, food and drinks on the routes they operate. Like the IET, it was specified by the DfT but at least it rides solidly on all track at speeds of up to 100mph, far better than Electrostars do on the same track. With carpets, tables, armrests, Grammar seats and doors between coaches it would have been a perfect train.

These days, half the world seems to want to go to Brighton when the weather is good. The 700s are excellent trains for this sort of thing, they move people and lots of them at a time (isn't it 1,800 crush loaded on a 12-car?)

With other trains you'd struggle to get on.

 

[driverd]

What are these, the fact that people can see an incident happening in another part of the train and can report it?

On the negative side, lets say the train caught fire if you have a wheelchair user that can't easily be evacuted on a standard unit you could move them to the other set. However the scenario isn't low risk, I can't recall the last fire on an EMU.

Whilst thats a benefit of the layout, the open carriage ends have a much higher risk when it comes to train division/major accident, as the risk of the gangways ejecting folk becomes far higher than anything with narrow ganagways/doors.

Admittedly this is somewhat mitigated by fixed bar couplings, but still presents a higher risk than, say a 377.

 

[GooseWaffe]

Many modern trains are boring and soleless nowadays, I agree Aventra units I also find extreamly dull, the Class 720 units on GA, and the SWR Class 701s are not exciting. Compared to the characterful charm of the Slam Door stock and Metropolitan A60 and A62 stock!

You say they’re soulless whilst also referencing trains that were mostly made from the same type of carriage.

To me, the new trains are exciting, sleek designs with new tech that makes them a joy to drive and commute on.

 

[frankmoh]

Whilst thats a benefit of the layout, the open carriage ends have a much higher risk when it comes to train division/major accident, as the risk of the gangways ejecting folk becomes far higher than anything with narrow ganagways/doors.

Admittedly this is somewhat mitigated by fixed bar couplings, but still presents a higher risk than, say a 377.

I wonder how bad telescoping is on an open gangway train.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not that a quick search could find, but these articles do tend to come about when new trains arrive and there's a comparison to the old, rather than randomly halfway through their life.

Yes, they do come about when new trains arrive. When people havent had a chance to get used to them.

Far better to take a balanced view after some experience.

Would I swap a 700 back for a 319 / 377 / 387?
Absolutely not.
The 700s are more comfortable (in every sense except legroom in some seats), more reliable, less crowded, quicker through the core, and safer.

 

[43066]

Yes, they do come about when new trains arrive. When people havent had a chance to get used to them.

Far better to take a balanced view after some experience.

Would I swap a 700 back for a 319 / 377 / 387?
Absolutely not.
The 700s are more comfortable (in every sense except legroom in some seats), more reliable, less crowded, quicker through the core, and safer.

As someone who uses them virtually everyday, I would agree.

 

[43066]

Whilst thats a benefit of the layout, the open carriage ends have a much higher risk when it comes to train division/major accident, as the risk of the gangways ejecting folk becomes far higher than anything with narrow ganagways/doors.

Can you point to anything in terms of statistics to back that up, or is it just an assumption/statement of opinion?

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes, they do come about when new trains arrive. When people havent had a chance to get used to them.

Far better to take a balanced view after some experience.

Would I swap a 700 back for a 319 / 377 / 387?
Absolutely not.
The 700s are more comfortable (in every sense except legroom in some seats), more reliable, less crowded, quicker through the core, and safer.

Just interested on your safer point? Why is a 700 safer then a 387? I thought they would have similar crashworthness standards.

Most of the negative points people raise about the 700s are down to the poor specification of the seating, something that can be fixed during a midlife refurbishment. Even the ironing board comments when they were first introduced was because of a cost decision, we could have had better. The vandalism of the toilets would happen to anytrain on that route. I am also fairly convinced that we would have had the same poor interior specifcation irrespective of who manufactured the trains so I actually don't hold it against the train, however as I have a choice I prefer to get a 379 / 387 as in my opinion the extra space on the seats makes a big difference - I don't want to be that close to the person sitting next to me.

I don't find them more reliable then than the 387s, however the 387s are only running on AC so less to go wrong with them - no frequent changes of voltage (The 387s are normally a lot higher in the modern railways golden spanner awards)

Access to wheelchairs is a pain in the rear, however it isn't impossible, just not as easy as some other stock in the area. However to be balanced, it is better then attempting to get a wheelchair on a 700 compared to getting them on the tube which is the alternative.

 

[Robski]

I have a few problems with the 700's. Aside from the already mentioned window seats designed for people with one leg, the passenger information system on these trains is awful. If the wrong software version is loaded onto the train then the SDO information is messed up, scrolling text is very buggy (often gets cut up), it often cuts out/gets lost in the core owing to the short distances between stations and most annoyingly it doesn't keep track of changes to calling patterns/destination which happens very often on GTR (and most drivers seem to have a phobia of picking up the PA handset). Additionally, the display housings seem to be very ineffective at protecting the LCD displays, many of which are now damaged to varying degrees.

They are also very dirty, with some areas seemingly not cleaned since new (like the bits between the seat and the wall/other seats). Oh, and some of the seat bases in standard are collapsing now, that is if they are not loose because maintenance forgot to screw them back in. These aren't necessarily design issues though.

One more gripe, the doors. Great for commuter services in the core, not so great on 100mph lines passing trains going the other way at the same speed. The problem is that the doors have a bit of play in them, if you are on a full and standing train and are pinned against the doors you need to make sure your head isn't near them as getting hit by the doors jumping as a result of a passing train is not pleasant.

They are great inner suburban/metro trains with their high capacity and wide doorways, but they really aren't suited for medium to long distance commuter services.

 

[FrontSideBus]

The 717s often use different brightness levels but I think 700s are nearly always on max brightness all the time.

The driver can change it, but it's not likely a high priority! The trains could do it based on time or an ambient light sensor.

It's not just the brightness, it's the whole layout which combines to make a very cold and uninviting ambience IMO.
There are plenty of new trains that use a more indirect lighting scheme with a warmer colours which makes for a far more pleasant environment instead of just having a long thin strip down the middle!

The IET's are a good example, I hate the ride quality but I have to admit the lighting is really good, it's bright without being glaring and the indirect nature means there is excellent coverage across the carriage.

 

[jon0844]

It's not just the brightness, it's the whole layout which combines to make a very cold and uninviting ambience IMO.
There are plenty of new trains that use a more indirect lighting scheme with a warmer colours which makes for a far more pleasant environment instead of just having a long thin strip down the middle!

For sure. I think warmer white would have worked better, but changing the colours inside could still make a big difference.

 

[Failed Unit]

It's not just the brightness, it's the whole layout which combines to make a very cold and uninviting ambience IMO.
There are plenty of new trains that use a more indirect lighting scheme with a warmer colours which makes for a far more pleasant environment instead of just having a long thin strip down the middle!

It is strange some of the things that people like / don't like about rolling stock. That is something I have never really notice, however when the 717s replaced the 313s anything is an improvement (watertight in wet weather for example) I have heard of bright lighting complaints in other rolling stock before, when people are tying to get 40 winks. The 717s do seem to generally be better then 700 - not sure if that is lessons learned from the older version.

 

[jon0844]

I assume GTR had a bit more say in the 717 layout, right down to having the option to add a toilet later (which I don't think for one second will happen as one single toilet would be broken more often than it worked).

 

[FrontSideBus]

It is strange some of the things that people like / don't like about rolling stock. That is something I have never really notice.

I must admit, the first time I travelled on a 345, I was like "wow, the lighting is awesome on this!", in fact the whole interior ambience on those trains is fantastic IMO, a complete opposite from the 700 series.

 

[Vexed]

There are a few things that 700s could do with sorting in the future, like getting the PIS to actually start showing live information for GTR services (and other TOCs at connecting stations), not just TfL status.

I've seen (and showed a photo elsewhere) of a 717 that was stating a good service on Great Northern trains, so I assume they're testing something. I also in the past saw screens showing individual Underground lines that presumably was going to show more detail (basically what you get on a TfL status page) about incidents. Again, saw it once and never again.

I think the equipment that drives the screens is too slow. Remember when they tried to show more graphics (and they're supposed to be able to video too) and the audio just stuttered to pieces? Makes you wonder how they didn't notice that when they signed a contract with the supplier and installed them. Why wasn't that company held to account if they delivered screens with insufficient computing power to do what they claimed they would do (at the London ExCeL demonstration)?

Aside from the already mentioned window seats designed for people with one leg, the passenger information system on these trains is awful. If the wrong software version is loaded onto the train then the SDO information is messed up, scrolling text is very buggy (often gets cut up), it often cuts out/gets lost in the core owing to the short distances between stations and most annoyingly it doesn't keep track of changes to calling patterns/destination which happens very often on GTR (and most drivers seem to have a phobia of picking up the PA handset). Additionally, the display housings seem to be very ineffective at protecting the LCD displays, many of which are now damaged to varying degrees.

GTR did advertise a Passenger Information Systems Project Manager job posting a few months back, and an upgrade of the 700 PIS (Passenger Information System) was explicitly mentioned in this. While it didn't mention 717s I assume it would include them... It was a fixed term contract ending Aug 2026 so might be a while before a full roll out.

It would be really good to get proper live info of connections, TfL status, and update calling points live from Darwin (or make it easier for the drivers to update as I understand it takes a while to adjust the stopping pattern).

I think part of the issues are that, 10 years ago, the 700 PIS was forward thinking with large colour displays. The computers powering the screen look to be quite weak as the screens take a bit to update in sync. I'm sure they could source much more powerful computers/microcontrollers for less money than the current ones cost back then. Now with Avanti, Northern and others retrofitting screens to their units its becoming more commonplace and therefore higher quality stuff is probably (hopefully!) available these days.

 

[frankmoh]

The 717s often use different brightness levels but I think 700s are nearly always on max brightness all the time.

The driver can change it, but it's not likely a high priority! The trains could do it based on time or an ambient light sensor.

Maybe it's because of the Northern City Line? Dark stations mean less light is needed. For some reason GTR seems to think that's also is true for the platforms themselves.

 

[jon0844]

I am still surprised Siemens sourced kit they must have known wasn't up to the job for the PIS. It promised video and live information from the outset.

The 700s started in 2016? So that's nine years and counting.

I hope there's the potential to optimise code to speed things up but doesn't the DfT need to sign everything off?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2025 ==

Maybe it's because of the Northern City Line? Dark stations mean less light is needed. For some reason GTR seems to think that's also is true for the platforms themselves.

I don't think it's that, and the lighting will be to a standard required by Network Rail as the actual owner of the stations. Most new LED lights are motion sensing, so go bright when a train passes or someone walks underneath. They're being installed more and more.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, whatever their faults, it's better than the Crossrail trains being specified without toilets !

 

[Russel]

I have no issues with the 700s.

One question though, why were the 700s built with toilets but the 717s weren't?

 

[Failed Unit]

I have no issues with the 700s.

One question though, why were the 700s built with toilets but the 717s weren't?

The route never had toilets in the past. It would remove standing space. However I suspect no tanking facilities at Welwyn and Hertford would be a big factor. Not sure how often they get to Hornsey.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The real beauty of these trains is there ability to just hoover up people. You can have a 15m gap at St.Pancras in the peak and a 12 car can still absorb people at London Bridge. Yes it will be a bit cosy by then but when it was 319's you would have been squashed in like a tube train at the height of the rush hour.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just interested on your safer point? Why is a 700 safer then a 387? I thought they would have similar crashworthness standards.

ETCS and ATO.
Also there are various other smaller / less obvious things in the specification that make them safer, including in the braking system and some of the interior spec, amongst other things.

Most of the negative points people raise about the 700s are down to the poor specification of the seating

The only issue I have with the seats is the legroom in the non-priority unidirectonal seats in standard. As for the seats themselves - I may be wrong here but they are the same as in the later 377s and 387s, but to my posterior they are certainly more comfortable than the seats on the 319s, 317s, 321s and 365s. I know many people will disagree with the last of these. But that is my opinion.

 

[Failed Unit]

I may be wrong here but they are the same as in the later 377s and 387s, but to my posterior they are certainly more comfortable than the seats on the 319s, 317s, 321s and 365s. I know many people will disagree with the last of these. But that is my opinion.

Actually I have no issues with the padding myself. I think as you say they are the same seat as on the 387s. It is the lack of space between the wall and seat and between the 2 seats I don’t like. It makes it very cosy if you are physically large.

 

[frankmoh]

Actually I have no issues with the padding myself. I think as you say they are the same seat as on the 387s. It is the lack of space between the wall and seat and between the 2 seats I don’t like. It makes it very cosy if you are physically large.

Not helped by the duct on the floor by the window resulting in half the leg space for the windows seats, inevitably tilting the people sat there towards the aisle and digging their knees into the passengers in the aisle seats.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not helped by the duct on the floor by the window

The same duct that is on every other Siemens EMU, and quite a few other makes too. But the 700s don‘t have seat supports underneath, nor anything else under the seats that get in the way of stretching your feet out. I certainly welcome that.