Why are Class 700s considered unpopular?

[Bletchleyite]

The 700 toilets should be getting sacrificial film (like the windows) to help keep them clean (or should I say, to help remove the mess easier than using harsh chemicals or paint that only Siemens can use as part of the lease agreement). Not sure if any already have it fitted, or how often they'll replace the film to hopefully discourage people once they see their 'hard work' doesn't last.

There isn't any now. However I would agree that the film which has scenery (or the inside of a traditional bathroom) printed on it does pretty well at reducing toilet graffiti. Several TOCs including Eurostar and WMT use this approach.

It's not only how easy it is to replace it, but that it's typically gloss plastic so paint doesn't stick to it well. Graffiti "artists"* don't usually go round sanding and priming to ensure adhesion, they just pick a different surface

* I don't mind actual artistic graffiti, but tagging is more like littering to be honest.

 

[Failed Unit]

The 700 toilets should be getting sacrificial film (like the windows) to help keep them clean (or should I say, to help remove the mess easier than using harsh chemicals or paint that only Siemens can use as part of the lease agreement). Not sure if any already have it fitted, or how often they'll replace the film to hopefully discourage people once they see their 'hard work' doesn't last.

That will be a good move forward, not sure how often that will need to be removed. But the toilets are really bad, again the 387s don't have the same problem (But they don't South of the Thames) - getting my tin hat on for that last comment.

 

[driverd]

Are they considered unpopular? I’d be interested to know by whom. Perhaps amongst certain quarters of the enthusiast community, who seem to dislike anything modern by default. I doubt many of Thameslink’s regular passengers would like to see 319s back on the route.

Cattle-class: are Thameslink's new 'tube-style' trains the future of commuting?

As the UK south-east’s rail nightmare continues, a new class of commuter trains has been quietly revealed – long, metro-style carriages without tables, built to accommodate as many standing passengers as possible. Is this the new normal?

www.theguardian.com

How hard is it to design a comfortable train seat? | The Railway Magazine

MAYBE the question should be how difficult is it, as an increasing number of passengers are finding the seats on the rising numbers of Class 700 and 800 tra ...

www.railwaymagazine.co.uk

Thameslink passengers left in pain by trains’ ‘concrete’ seats

They are the most expensive trains ever built, acclaimed by ministers as the answer to passengers’ prayers. But they are being spoilt by what could be the least

www.thetimes.com

Just a few there.

And the 319s are absolutely a false comparison, given 700s broadly replaced 377/5s and 387s.

 

[frankmoh]

When will train manufacturers realise that they need good seats? That is pretty much 90% of interaction between a passenger and a train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the 319s are absolutely a false comparison, given 700s broadly replaced 377/5s and 387s.

Those were only ever said to be temporary and there were plenty of 319s still in service until the last. And to be honest for Thameslink loadings the 700s are better. Electrostars are not good at crowds, they are too cramped for lots of standees due to the tight body profile.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2025 ==

When will train manufacturers realise that they need good seats? That is pretty much 90% of interaction between a passenger and a train.

The seat is chosen by the purchaser, not the manufacturer. To use one example, TfW were being slated for "ironing boards" on the 197s so they paid for an upgrade, and it wasn't cheap.

 

[frankmoh]

The seat is chosen by the purchaser, not the manufacturer. To use one example, TfW were being slated for "ironing boards" on the 197s so they paid for an upgrade, and it wasn't cheap.

When will TOCs realise that they need to get good seats? It's almost like customer satisfaction is part of the company's job.

 

[jon0844]

When Arsenal were at home pre GTR they would run extras from Welwyn Garden City to help with the load. That said we also had 4 coach trains from trains starting at Cambridge because of platform length issues.

In my experience, some of those didn't always run (no driver or stock) so in the end, as they ran behind the normal services, people just packed themselves on to the standard trains in case the extra didn't show up. The end result was usually that it ran nearly empty, so I can easily imagine the powers that be decided there was no need for them.

Now that was obviously for WGC to FPK as the other way people are just getting the first train that turns up that goes where they want to go. I am not sure if they ran extras the other way?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2025 ==

That will be a good move forward, not sure how often that will need to be removed. But the toilets are really bad, again the 387s don't have the same problem (But they don't South of the Thames) - getting my tin hat on for that last comment.

They're absolutely being hit mostly in the south, on the Sevenoaks, Sutton and Gillingham/Rainham routes. Because many 700s go from the ECML to MML (Cricklewood) and back, we get to see a lot of the worst trains on this side. However, some stock that presumably doesn't serve these destinations (which will mostly be 12 cars) can look pretty clean.

Tagging is of course a thing all over, but it seems very, very much worse in south London.

 

[Failed Unit]

The seat is chosen by the purchaser, not the manufacturer. To use one example, TfW were being slated for "ironing boards" on the 197s so they paid for an upgrade, and it wasn't cheap.

Which in this case was the DfT which would always go for the cheapest it could get away with. If people choose to drive instead, they are getting the tax on the fuel so they prefer if people drive everywhere. To be fair the 387s seats are just as bad for lack of padding, but the fact they have armrests prevents a lot of the unwelcome encroaching from neighboring passengers we need to suffer on the 700s.

The other thing the DfT specified was availabilty of the trains, I think they are a lot lower then what was expected to the extent that had the Cambridge - Maidstone service ran they would have struggled to cover it as unit availability continues to be poor. Was the specification over optimisic? Maybe but Siemen's bid on it...

 

[43066]

Just a few there.

The Guardian article is the usual people moaning about lack of seats (most TL journeys are something like 20 mins). Rail Magazine is enthusiast biased so I would discount.

The Times article perhaps has more merit, but again hard seats with aircon versus soft seats without? I think I know what most would prefer.

And the 319s are absolutely a false comparison, given 700s broadly replaced 377/5s and 387s.

You clearly aren’t familiar with the Thameslink network - the 700s broadly replaced 319s, which remained in service till the very end.

The Electrostars also weren’t as good at hoovering crowds, and took two minutes to change from AC to DC versus 30 seconds or so for the 700s.

 

[jon0844]

There are a few things that 700s could do with sorting in the future, like getting the PIS to actually start showing live information for GTR services (and other TOCs at connecting stations), not just TfL status.

I've seen (and showed a photo elsewhere) of a 717 that was stating a good service on Great Northern trains, so I assume they're testing something. I also in the past saw screens showing individual Underground lines that presumably was going to show more detail (basically what you get on a TfL status page) about incidents. Again, saw it once and never again.

I think the equipment that drives the screens is too slow. Remember when they tried to show more graphics (and they're supposed to be able to video too) and the audio just stuttered to pieces? Makes you wonder how they didn't notice that when they signed a contract with the supplier and installed them. Why wasn't that company held to account if they delivered screens with insufficient computing power to do what they claimed they would do (at the London ExCeL demonstration)?

They also need to check the door open and close buttons as many are now spongey or not working properly after having graffiti cleaned off badly, and some of the speakers to assist the blind are not working at some doors.

I also think they need to look at the toilet paper dispenser in the accessible toilet. There's either a risk of the toilet paper falling down so you can't get any at all, or people pull one sheet out and get a handful so it all ends up on the floor. Having a spring loaded system seems doomed to fail from the get go!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which in this case was the DfT which would always go for the cheapest it could get away with. If people choose to drive instead, they are getting the tax on the fuel so they prefer if people drive everywhere.

Driving is not a significant competitor with rail for short to medium distance journeys into London. If anything, a cheap spec was used because people will travel regardless because it's in most cases the only sensible option.

 

[QSK19]

For me, the problem with 700s is personal. Aside from how dull they are, they nearly lost me and many others my job at Bombardier when they lost the Thameslink order to Siemens. It was a very uncertain and distressing time and those trains are a permanent reminder of that.

 

[jon0844]

In my opinion, the class 700 is the perfect metro train. The problem is that most of the routes that these trains are used on are not metro routes. Thameslink and Great Northern routes are mostly outer-suburban and regional routes with services that go over 50 miles commonly. The spartan interior is only really suitable for the central core of Thameslink and the Sutton loop services. Perhaps a refurbishment to make the interior more like a class 380 or a 2+2 class 350 would make these units more suitable for the actual routes that these units are used on.

Perhaps if GB Railways is set up before the 700s are due their mid-life refresh, there might be some colour added inside and out. The PIS can also be adapted to match, although I can't see any changes being made to the seats themselves.

The floor could also be changed, perhaps like many buses now get fake looking wood floors. Any pattern could be used in theory. I doubt they'd get carpeting though, which would perhaps make them look a lot smarter. From a cleaning point of view, the 700s (and other Desiro City trains) are very easy to wash down, so nobody would want to change that. It would be nice to see what a 700 with a more cosy interior might look like though.

Given the lighting is presumably not able to have the colour temperature adjusted, I doubt they can alter that - but just making the lights a little warmer would probably make a world of difference to the interior look at night.

 

[43066]

Perhaps if GB Railways is set up before the 700s are due their mid-life refresh, there might be some colour added inside and out. The PIS can also be adapted to match, although I can't see any changes being made to the seats themselves.

The floor could also be changed, perhaps like many buses now get fake looking wood floors. Any pattern could be used in theory. I doubt they'd get carpeting though, which would perhaps make them look a lot smarter. From a cleaning point of view, the 700s (and other Desiro City trains) are very easy to wash down, so nobody would want to change that. It would be nice to see what a 700 with a more cosy interior might look like though.

Given the lighting is presumably not able to have the colour temperature adjusted, I doubt they can alter that - but just making the lights a little warmer would probably make a world of difference to the interior look at night.

I’d agree the interior decor of the 700s is pretty drab, and they do look older than they should. The (admittedly newer) 707s show how much a few different decisions around colour etc. can lift the interior of what is a very similar train.

 

[MikeWM]

Pretty much just repeating what has already been said here, but riding a 700 for any length of time is a truly awful passenger experience. Incredibly uncomfortable seats, very little space for your feet when by the window, no armrests, no tray tables (on many/most), no wifi (on many/most), no sockets. A deeply unpleasant 'sterile' ambience. And with no divisions between carriages, you've got people constantly shuffling past your seat, and you can clearly hear the crying baby/hen party/football supporters five carriages away.

They're totally unsuitable internally for long-distance journeys with few stops, and yet that is precisely what Great Northern increasingly use them for.

I actively avoid them wherever possible, which for example on Saturdays means that I take far few trips to London than I used to, as most of the Ely terminators on Saturdays are now run by 700s.

 

[frankmoh]

I don't even get why Siemens thought a continuous carriage design would be any better than a normal gangway and door combination. Especially on 12-car units, it doesn't feel like a train but instead a tube (and I don't mean the Underground).

 

[RUK]

It will be interesting to see what Siemens latest suburban offering is like, the Desiro Verve. It may be a decent train for Scotrail suburban routes, aswell as Southeasterns Networker replacement! It will be interesting to see how the build and reliability compares to its contemporaries such as the Aventras and METROs. From concept images, the Verve looks akin to a Class 380, maybe some resemblance is taken from the first gen Desiros. Also considering battery technology is increasing, the battery Desiro Verve may become a popular choice for operators. I wonder how the interior compares to a outer-suburban/commuter style akin to TL 700s?

The front of the Desiro Verve U.K. non-gangway version looks exactly like the SIEMENS Mireo, which is their replacement for the Desiro in main-land Europe, which is already in service. The angled headlights look a bit like those on the Class 380, but a bit rounder. The front of the gangwayed version looks like the Class 717 Desiro City with a gangway added on the end, with the Desiro City headlights and cab/buffers. Most, but not all, of the renders and physical models show them with plug doors rather than pocket doors. Hopefully any plug doors will be much faster than the slow ones on the first-generation Desiro U.K..

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't even get why Siemens thought a continuous carriage design would be any better than a normal gangway and door combination. Especially on 12-car units, it doesn't feel like a train but instead a tube (and I don't mean the Underground).

Because it is better for this sort of service. It is on the 730/0s too, and the S-stock, and the 345s.

It allows people to far more easily disperse through a train on a crowded metro style service.

 

[RUK]

* Notably Aventras only come in one width, which makes 701s look like baby trains - normally 20m vehicles are a bit wider

Hopefully the ALSTOM Adessia will be wider, if Southeastern need to stick with 20-metre length carriages, like SWR did. I wonder what ALSTOM’s predecessor product, the X’trapolis, is like? I guess they will be more similar to that than the older Coradias for the U.K. market, hopefully, which were un-reliable when first introduced.

 

[frankmoh]

Because it is better for this sort of service. It is on the 730/0s too, and the S-stock, and the 345s.

It allows people to far more easily disperse through a train on a crowded metro style service.

Gatwick to [anywhere else in London] is pretty arduous. A mad dash to get your suitcase on a rack and then most people are forced to leave them in the aisle. I'm sure this is why the Gatwick Express exists.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This is one of those very subjective matters that will differ from person to person...

For myself, I actively prefer the 700s... lots of space, big windows, excellent seat to window match and an ideal mix of airline and bay seating.

I do agree the interior decor is a bit bland and over-bright.

Yes, the seats are hard - but they're no harder than the seats on the 387s and half the 377s, so no real difference there. There seems to be more luggage space on the 700s and it seems easier to access than on the 377s and 387s as well.

Some have mentioned the duct on the floor - interesting, because I always sit in the window seats and I've never had to push my feet out encroaching the space for the seat next to me because of it; it's not in the way at all - can we conclude that some people have extremely wide feet...?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some have mentioned the duct on the floor - interesting, because I always sit in the window seats and I've never had to push my feet out encroaching the space for the seat next to me because of it; it's not in the way at all - can we conclude that some people have extremely wide feet...?

I like the flat topped ducts as I can put my foot on top. I'm less of a fan of the sloped ones where you can't. It is an old fashioned way to do HVAC, though, it'd be better to get rid and have underfloor heating. Though it's actually got bigger on a lot of more recent stock (not these) because it also contains a cantilever mechanism for the seats.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I like the flat topped ducts as I can put my foot on top. I'm less of a fan of the sloped ones where you can't.

Are they flat or sloped in the 700s? I've never actually looked at them...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they flat or sloped in the 700s? I've never actually looked at them...

Pretty sure they are on all Desiros, though annoyingly the 350s now have a socket in the way.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Rock hard ironing board seats and harsh led lighting which makes the interror pretty grim IMO.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Pretty sure they are on all Desiros, though annoyingly the 350s now have a socket in the way.

Sorry... is that flat or sloped? I don't think I've looked at them on anything...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry... is that flat or sloped? I don't think I've looked at them on anything...

Flat on all Desiros that I can recall, though the flat bit on 350s is fairly narrow it's wide enough to put a foot on.

 

[cactustwirly]

In my opinion they are night and day better than the 701s, much smoother ride and more comfortable seats.

The best train of this type is the BR430 on the Stuttgart and Frankfurt S Bahns

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Flat on all Desiros that I can recall, though the flat bit on 350s is fairly narrow it's wide enough to put a foot on.

Ah, thank you - I've never done the putting foot on...!!

 

[jon0844]

I don't even get why Siemens thought a continuous carriage design would be any better than a normal gangway and door combination. Especially on 12-car units, it doesn't feel like a train but instead a tube (and I don't mean the Underground).

Wide aisles and open gangways makes it easy to move throughout the train. I don't find that noise (or smells) really travel though the train that much so it hasn't ever been a problem and more and more trains are going this way.

Physical doors usually result in some coaches becoming overcrowded and people not wanting to walk through. They also can't see other coaches as easily, and there are safety benefits of open trains too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2025 ==

Rock hard ironing board seats and harsh led lighting which makes the interror pretty grim IMO.

The 717s often use different brightness levels but I think 700s are nearly always on max brightness all the time.

The driver can change it, but it's not likely a high priority! The trains could do it based on time or an ambient light sensor.