Future of the 350/2s

[43096]

Has anyone suggested using the 350/2s to boost capacity in the c2c routes from Fenchurch Street?

They would allow more 12 car 357 sets to operate, and could operate as 12 cars themselves. Despite the recent arrival of the 720/6s, there's still a lot of very busy 8 car rakes in use.

Downside is it gives them three separate fleets to juggle, of course.

Is there a need for that, and if there is, would not be easier to transfer surplus 720s from Greater Anglia.

 

[SolomonSouth]

A pretty likely scenario if there are no takers for them as AC units, IMO.

Adding shoes might be a step further than they'll go though, if they can create a reliable AC BEMU conversion fleet then there should be plenty of opportunity for someone to take them on. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't get beyond a prototype.

Again, do we know if it's possible to fit 350/2s with shoes? Because I'm not sure.

Has anyone suggested using the 350/2s to boost capacity in the c2c routes from Fenchurch Street?

They would allow more 12 car 357 sets to operate, and could operate as 12 cars themselves. Despite the recent arrival of the 720/6s, there's still a lot of very busy 8 car rakes in use.

Downside is it gives them three separate fleets to juggle, of course.

The difference is I think the Electrostars (357 included) have Selective Door Opening. 350s don't, and I can't see it being a cheap retrofit either.

 

[Brubulus]

Again, do we know if it's possible to fit 350/2s with shoes? Because I'm not sure.

The difference is I think the Electrostars (357 included) have Selective Door Opening. 350s don't, and I can't see it being a cheap retrofit either.

Other 350s have shoes. I don't see why it wouldn't be.

 

[Zomboid]

I wouldn't have thought that an ASDO retrofit would be ridiculous, given that most other 350 subclasses and the 450s have it.

Is there any fundamental technical difference between a 350/2 and some of the others, or is it just a who owns them thing, or a seat layout thing?

 

[tfw756rider]

Again, do we know if it's possible to fit 350/2s with shoes? Because I'm not sure.

I remember reading/hearing years ago that yes it is possible, but slightly more involved than putting them back on the 350/1s, but that it is possible.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Other 350s have shoes. I don't see why it wouldn't be.

The 350/1 have wiring down in the shoe area that 350/2/3/4 do not have.

I remember reading/hearing years ago that yes it is possible, but slightly more involved than putting them back on the 350/1s, but that it is possible.

I guess it might depend on the cost then.

I wouldn't have thought that an ASDO retrofit would be ridiculous, given that most other 350 subclasses and the 450s have it.

Is there any fundamental technical difference between a 350/2 and some of the others, or is it just a who owns them thing, or a seat layout thing?

Other 350s have it? As far as I understood, Desiros in general just lacked SDO compared to Electrostars. I must have been mistaken.

 

[Zomboid]

Other 350s have it? As far as I understood, Desiros in general just lacked SDO compared to Electrostars. I must have been mistaken.

I believe it's been fitted to the other 350s, but it's not in use yet.
Is definitely in full operation on 450s though (and 444s).

 

[hwl]

The 350/1 have wiring down in the shoe area that 350/2/3/4 do not have.

I guess it might depend on the cost then.

Other 350s have it? As far as I understood, Desiros in general just lacked SDO compared to Electrostars. I must have been mistaken.

They didn't originally have SDO (just unit deselect or local manual door operation by the the guard) but some have had it retrofitted.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I'm not sure if anyone has suggested using the 350/2s with GWR on the LTV services to replace the 387s. The 350/2s would gain batteries for the Bedwyns and Oxford services, which would be re-joined to the Newbury and Didcot Parkway services. I would estimate this would free up 2 165s off Oxford, 3-6 IETs off Oxford fasts, 1 IET off Bedwyn and 1 165 off Bedwyn. The 387s would become dedicated long-distance units to work all Cardiff's with first class and a trolley service. This would require between 10-12 diagrams for eight car services and 15-18 diagrams for 12 car Cardiff's, plus an extra 8-10 diagrams for eight car or 12-15 diagrams for 12 car Bristol Temple Meads via Parkway post electrification. I would expect this to free up the IETs for longer-distance routes, which require a power switchover. This would also allow for the strengthening of existing services to be longer and, therefore, reduce overcrowding. The 350/2s would allow all to enable more LTV services to remain eight cars at a minimum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With there being 37 350/2s but only 30 387s, would they need to keep any of the 387s or would it not just make sense to replace them all with battery fitted 350/2s to keep things standard? Though I suppose they would keep the HEx sets (a separate 12 on the Wiki page).

I'm not sure switching the Cardiffs to 110mph suburban EMUs would be well received, much as the seats are nicer than 80x.

 

[Brubulus]

I'm not sure if anyone has suggested using the 350/2s with GWR on the LTV services to replace the 387s. The 350/2s would gain batteries for the Bedwyns and Oxford services, which would be re-joined to the Newbury and Didcot Parkway services. I would estimate this would free up 2 165s off Oxford, 3-6 IETs off Oxford fasts, 1 IET off Bedwyn and 1 165 off Bedwyn. The 387s would become dedicated long-distance units to work all Cardiff's with first class and a trolley service. This would require between 10-12 diagrams for eight car services and 15-18 diagrams for 12 car Cardiff's, plus an extra 8-10 diagrams for eight car or 12-15 diagrams for 12 car Bristol Temple Meads via Parkway post electrification. I would expect this to free up the IETs for longer-distance routes, which require a power switchover. This would also allow for the strengthening of existing services to be longer and, therefore, reduce overcrowding. The 350/2s would allow all to enable more LTV services to remain eight cars at a minimum.

The issue with that is either HeX has a microfleet of refurbished 387s, which could be a maintenance problem given there would be a lot of Desiros. A solution would be to refurbish 5 units (4 +1 spare) and only run 4 car trains on HeX, which is all that is needed given the EL takes the vast majority of traffic. However this does mean that GWR only has 32 units, which could make the fleet very thinly spread in the unlikely event of future electrification.

If there was a fleet of 37, it could enable the fitment of small batteries or future electrification for routes such as Didcot-Oxford, Newbury-Bedwyn, Filton Bank and some of the branches in the Thames Valley. It would also enable more consistently long trains on current electric services.

 

[BerkshireRails]

With there being 37 350/2s but only 30 387s, would they need to keep any of the 387s or would it not just make sense to replace them all with battery fitted 350/2s to keep things standard? Though I suppose they would keep the HEx sets (a separate 12 on the Wiki page).

I'm not sure switching the Cardiffs to 110mph suburban EMUs would be well received, much as the seats are nicer than 80x.

Currently there around 25 class 387 diagrams with GWR, running to Bedwyn I estimate would take two extra units as the 1Ks would now take 4 hours rather than 3 hours to do a full diagram and they are eight coach services running hourly, Oxford stoppers would take an extra four units as it half hourly and would take an extra hour with eight car services, Oxford fasts require an extra six units since they run hourly with a diagram time of 3 hours and a four car won't be long enough as five car IETs are rammed so it will have to be eight car service at the minimum. This means you require an extra 12 unit diagrams, which means you probably want a fleet of around 45 4-car units to do electric workings. The 387s would make up the difference between the 350/2s and the required number of units, and they would be dedicated to long distance.

The issue with that is either HeX has a microfleet of refurbished 387s, which could be a maintenance problem given there would be a lot of Desiros. A solution would be to refurbish 5 units (4 +1 spare) and only run 4 car trains on HeX, which is all that is needed given the EL takes the vast majority of traffic. However this does mean that GWR only has 32 units, which could make the fleet very thinly spread in the unlikely event of future electrification.

If there was a fleet of 37, it could enable the fitment of small batteries or future electrification for routes such as Didcot-Oxford, Newbury-Bedwyn, Filton Bank and some of the branches in the Thames Valley. It would also enable more consistently long trains on current electric services.

I was thinking that HEX 387s would remain with some, if not all, of the GWR 387 fleet as they built a lot of sidings in Oxford for the 769s, which could be wired to store the 350/2s overnight, so that there is still enough space to store the 387s at Reading TCD.

 

[43096]

The issue with that is either HeX has a microfleet of refurbished 387s, which could be a maintenance problem given there would be a lot of Desiros. A solution would be to refurbish 5 units (4 +1 spare) and only run 4 car trains on HeX, which is all that is needed given the EL takes the vast majority of traffic. However this does mean that GWR only has 32 units, which could make the fleet very thinly spread in the unlikely event of future electrification.

If there was a fleet of 37, it could enable the fitment of small batteries or future electrification for routes such as Didcot-Oxford, Newbury-Bedwyn, Filton Bank and some of the branches in the Thames Valley. It would also enable more consistently long trains on current electric services.

The other solution is to swap around further:
30 x 379 GN to GWR
13 x 387 GN to GTR Southern
30 x 387 GWR to GTR Southern
37 x 350 to GN

In other words, an olf-fashioned BR cascade plan!

That would mean GWR retains an all-Electrostar fleet and makes GN entirely Siemens units (350, 700, 717). There is a slight imbalance of 6 sets between GN ins and outs, so might need to look at 700 rostering to fill the gap - are there any 700s on third-rail only turns that could go over to 377/387 to release them?

 

[brad465]

Given the situation regarding 379s getting back into service, for the 350/2s to have any future they need a new home after a max of one year in storage IMO. Any longer and an operator won't want the hassle of trying to get the units backup to service condition after a long spell out of service.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not sure if anyone has suggested using the 350/2s with GWR on the LTV services to replace the 387s...

March 2024 is the first mention of Bedwyn I could find in this thread. There are dozens of other posts with suggestions about uses with GWR.

 

[Russel]

The 350/1 have wiring down in the shoe area that 350/2/3/4 do not have.

That, presumably, hasn't seen much maintenance since the shoe removal?

 

[RailWonderer]

Given the situation regarding 379s getting back into service, for the 350/2s to have any future they need a new home after a max of one year in storage IMO. Any longer and an operator won't want the hassle of trying to get the units backup to service condition after a long spell out of service.

Northern seem like the most likely place for them to replace the 323s and the Huddersfield stoppers once electrification comes. They could reform them to three coaches and use the fourth for spares.

The 379s were way longer than that out of service and are doing mostly fine, as long as they aren't stored near the coast where salt corrosion gets to them.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Northern seem like the most likely place for them to replace the 323s and the Huddersfield stoppers once electrification comes. They could reform them to three coaches and use the fourth for spares.

The 379s were way longer than that out of service and are doing mostly fine, as long as they aren't stored near the coast where salt corrosion gets to them.

Although the 350s are longer than the 323s they are only 10 metres longer as the 323s are 23m carriage units and the 350s are 20m carriage units. Also there wouldn't be a need to remove the fourth coach for spares as Siemens is still making them for other 350s, 450s and etc. Another issue with removing a coach is that the equipment is spread across the full unit so the Wheelchair toilet and Pantograph aren't on the same trailer.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Northern seem like the most likely place for them to replace the 323s and the Huddersfield stoppers once electrification comes. They could reform them to three coaches and use the fourth for spares.

323 replacement is already planned for in Lot 1 Phase 2 of Northern's new fleet. 34 3 cars (the exact same number as of 323s with Northern).

That's not to say I wouldn't like some 4 car 350s (I think they should fit in most places 323s do), I just don't think they're likely to come up here after so much has been done to bring 323s up here.

 

[amahy]

Don't know if this has already been suggested here, but could battery fitted refurbished class 350/2s be suitable for Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness/Windermere runs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't know if this has already been suggested here, but could battery fitted refurbished class 350/2s be suitable for Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness/Windermere runs?

It has and they could, but Northern is proposing a fleet of new units including bi/tri-mode capability so they may prefer that.

 

[amahy]

It has and they could, but Northern is proposing a fleet of new units including bi/tri-mode capability so they may prefer that.

The thing is, the new proposed units are probably at least 5 years away, which leaves Northern with a unit shortfall for the rest of this decade at least. It could be much quicker to fit the 350/2s with batteries.

 

[The exile]

I'm not sure switching the Cardiffs to 110mph suburban EMUs would be well received, much as the seats are nicer than 80x.

You mean the ones that aren’t already? Several daily 2x387 workings.

 

[Russel]

The thing is, the new proposed units are probably at least 5 years away, which leaves Northern with a unit shortfall for the rest of this decade at least. It could be much quicker to fit the 350/2s with batteries.

From what we've seen of these re-powering projects, by the time the units have been fitted out with batteries, tested, failed dramatically, rebuilt, retested etc, you're probably talking 5 years...

 

[Kite159]

...

It has and they could, but Northern is proposing a fleet of new units including bi/tri-mode capability so they may prefer that.

Until such a fleet is kicked into the long grass as a cost cutting measure and the only new trains Northern get are to replace the ancient 150s with the 350/2s heading there to replace the 323s.

 

[bramling]

The other solution is to swap around further:
30 x 379 GN to GWR
13 x 387 GN to GTR Southern
30 x 387 GWR to GTR Southern
37 x 350 to GN

In other words, an olf-fashioned BR cascade plan!

That would mean GWR retains an all-Electrostar fleet and makes GN entirely Siemens units (350, 700, 717). There is a slight imbalance of 6 sets between GN ins and outs, so might need to look at 700 rostering to fill the gap - are there any 700s on third-rail only turns that could go over to 377/387 to release them?

Please, nothing involving GN. Things have been dire enough since 2018, the last thing needed is any more change programmes, especially ones which don’t provide any tangible benefits to GN users. It’s been bad enough with the 379s and they’re very similar to the 387s.

 

[BerkshireRails]

You mean the ones that aren’t already? Several daily 2x387 workings.

That is correct; however, there isn't a significant difference in journey time between an IET and a 387 on Cardiff's. An IET takes 110 minutes from Paddington to Cardiff, and a 387 takes 116 minutes from Paddington to Cardiff.

 

[JonathanH]

The 387s would become dedicated long-distance units to work all Cardiff's with first class and a trolley service.

Units involved in London to Cardiff services run to places off the wires at other times of the day unless someone is suggesting a reduction in through services to Swansea. The last service from Paddington which terminates at Cardiff leaves at 1516, after which there is a half hourly service to Swansea until 1948. The point being that there are not a load of self contained workings to Cardiff to put units on.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Units involved in London to Cardiff services run to places off the wires at other times of the day unless someone is suggesting a reduction in through services to Swansea. The last service from Paddington which terminates at Cardiff leaves at 1516, after which there is a half hourly service to Swansea until 1948. The point being that there are not a load of self contained workings to Cardiff to put units on.

You can modify the diagrams at the timetable change to allow the majority of the Cardiff to be 387s, plus the Welsh Government has a plan to wire to Swansea by 2030.

 

[JonathanH]

You can modify the diagrams at the timetable change to allow the majority of the Cardiff to be 387s, plus the Welsh Government has a plan to wire to Swansea by 2030.

I'm sure you could modify the Cardiff services to be 387s, but what are those units meant to do in the peak and evening, and what do the released 80x units do during the day before they are needed at peak times. The fact is that Cardiff services essentially only operate for part of the day, and there is an 80x depot in Swansea.

Swansea wiring in 2030 still leaves surplus 350s not being needed for five years.