CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[vicbury]

What counts is how many people are on the train at each stage in the journey. Wrexham is a sizeable place that would be skipped if trains to/from south Wales only went via Crewe.

Loadings at Wrexham:> https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/loadings/gbr/?TLC=WRX

I can't speak for Wrexham, but I checked my local station for my usual commuter service and it reckons that 3 people board! Yeah right!

 

[Cardiff123]

There are still plenty of routes for which 2 and 3 car services are enough capacity, and TfW is a heavily subsidised TOC as it is. On paper, 2 and 3 car sets give a lot more flexibility to cope with a network with such vast differences in needs. Of course, that does require more of the fleets (both CAF & Stadler) to be available and fully functioning.

Having 2 car sets however, does result in what we've seen this evening - 2 car 197s deputising for 5 car LHCS on the 1722 and 1853 off Cardiff up north. Far from ideal at all, and it's too easy with 2 car sets for this to happen.

 

[MP393]

Having 2 car sets however, does result in what we've seen this evening - 2 car 197s deputising for 5 car LHCS on the 1722 and 1853 off Cardiff up north. Far from ideal at all, and it's too easy with 2 car sets for this to happen.

The 17:22 ran as a Mk4 as booked as it was fixed in time, and the whilst 18:55 was a 2 car unit, the Mk4 is doing the 20:10 Manchester vice unit, as it couldn’t be prepared in time to be back in service for the 18:55.

 

[Topological]

Having 2 car sets however, does result in what we've seen this evening - 2 car 197s deputising for 5 car LHCS on the 1722 and 1853 off Cardiff up north. Far from ideal at all, and it's too easy with 2 car sets for this to happen.

Though the alternative would have been cancellation, which is not ideal.

At least they managed to get the Mk4 onto a service.

It is very clear that there is not enough stock at the moment to run all the services desired at the lengths that are needed. Meanwhile there is stock in storage in Holyhead. It surprises me that the MPs are not saying more about that fact.

 

[craigybagel]

Having 2 car sets however, does result in what we've seen this evening - 2 car 197s deputising for 5 car LHCS on the 1722 and 1853 off Cardiff up north. Far from ideal at all, and it's too easy with 2 car sets for this to happen.

If they were formed in 4 car sets, the likelihood is there would be fewer of them - meaning there would have been a greater chance of a service being cancelled.

 

[Krokodil]

197038 seen on a test run to Holyhead and back earlier

 

[tfw756rider]

197038 seen on a test run to Holyhead and back earlier

Nice one, thanks for letting us know Hope that goes well, and maybe it will be next-in-service?

 

[SeaKing]

Has it been established what unit’s are in Crewe carriage sidings.

 

[Anonymous10]

What counts is how many people are on the train at each stage in the journey. Wrexham is a sizeable place that would be skipped if trains to/from south Wales only went via Crewe.

Loadings at Wrexham:> https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/loadings/gbr/?TLC=WRX

As I said I would be running a shuttle , even if you were to put it to an hourly 3 carriage shuttle, youd likely have higher capacity, and you'd still have the birmingham services as well. Im only suggesting Cardiff is removed to gain units.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Has it been established what unit’s are in Crewe carriage sidings.

I said the other day. No 197s at Crewe depot.

To add further information no 197s at Crewe depot for the next 2 weeks either. No movements at all.

 

[craigybagel]

I said the other day. No 197s at Crewe depot.

To add further information no 197s at Crewe depot for the next 2 weeks either. No movements at all.

They might have been asking about Crewe South Yard, where there are several?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2025 ==

Perhaps running Holyhead to crewe would be more efficient with a shuttle Shrewsbury to Chester?

Probably better for passenger connections, but the Welsh Government would never allow it as it would lose a direct North-South link.

They must surely keep the direct Cardiff to north Wales services.

I only threw out the suggestion of not running the Cardiff - Holyhead through services because it would keep stock focused on where it needs to be. The reality is it's never going to happen; it's politically impossible, so probably not worth giving much thought - other than you say in the context of this thread, 5 cars are not really needed on it

 

[Tramfan]

197038 seen on a test run to Holyhead and back earlier

Saw that at Chester on its way to Holyhead yesterday as well, wasn't sure if it was on test or training.

 

[Krokodil]

I said the other day. No 197s at Crewe depot.

Which "Crewe depot"? Crewe Electric? Crewe Diesel? Crewe Carriage Sidings? Crewe South Yard? Basford Hall? Coal Yard?

 

[Russel]

Are there many of these to still enter service?

 

[Mugby]

I travelled on a 197 last week from Crewe to Manchester, it was actually 5-cars, 3+2. I walked through the train because I prefer to face direction of travel. I was surprised to find that a large majority of the airline seats face the same way. I was hoping to find something like an even split of direction facing but this doesn't seem to be the case.
I thought it was poor layout arrangement for no apparent reason.

 

[tfw756rider]

I travelled on a 197 last week from Crewe to Manchester, it was actually 5-cars, 3+2. I walked through the train because I prefer to face direction of travel. I was surprised to find that a large majority of the airline seats face the same way. I was hoping to find something like an even split of direction facing but this doesn't seem to be the case.
I thought it was poor layout arrangement for no apparent reason.

I haven't noticed that on 197s, but I did notice it on 220s (I think it was those) that I used recently.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2025 ==

Are there many of these to still enter service?

11, all of which are ETCS-fitted 2-car 197/0s:

197023/025/026/027/032/036/037/038/039/040/041

 

[berneyarms]

As I said I would be running a shuttle , even if you were to put it to an hourly 3 carriage shuttle, youd likely have higher capacity, and you'd still have the birmingham services as well. Im only suggesting Cardiff is removed to gain units.

It is pointless sending that train to Crewe instead of Cardiff as it will only just be ahead of the Avanti train that runs each hour between Chester and Crewe, and would be connecting into nothing that the Avanti service does not already connect into.

The same would apply in reverse.

 

[56xx]

10, all of which are ETCS-fitted 2-car 197/0s:

197023/025/026/027/032/036/037/038/039/040/041

11?

 

[Anonymous10]

It is pointless sending that train to Crewe instead of Cardiff as it will only just be ahead of the Avanti train that runs each hour between Chester and Crewe, and would be connecting into nothing that the Avanti service does not already connect into.

The same would apply in reverse.

Would avoid putting extra pressure on the Avanti, I've taken that service before and it was standing room only. On a bank holiday im sure the capacity would be warranted.

 

[tfw756rider]

11?

Yes, thanks - now corrected

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Which "Crewe depot"? Crewe Electric? Crewe Diesel? Crewe Carriage Sidings? Crewe South Yard? Basford Hall? Coal Yard?

Arriva TrainCare Crewe depot/Carriage Sidings.

 

[Krokodil]

Arriva TrainCare Crewe depot/Carriage Sidings.

Ok. It looks like 197038 came out of the South Yard yesterday. From what a Chester driver told me, there may be a few stored units at Crewe Electric.

 

[Russel]

11, all of which are ETCS-fitted 2-car 197/0s:

197023/025/026/027/032/036/037/038/039/040/041

Are TFW planning to get these into service before they start working on the Cambrian or are they being stored until then?

 

[tfw756rider]

Are TFW planning to get these into service before they start working on the Cambrian or are they being stored until then?

I believe the former (or a few / some of them), but not necessarily to add to the number currently in service - I'm guessing more what they've been doing with the 10 - out of 21 - ETCS-fitted 197s that have been in service so far (using a few at a time to cover the few long-term-stopped units out of the 56 non-ETCS 197s, and then storing the rest of the ETCS-fitted 197s that have been used so far due to Chester depot being full I believe, although I'm not sure how many more of them they can store at Holyhead sidings / if they have any other locations planned for storing the used ETCS-fitted 197s before their depot changes to Machynlleth / they actually replace the 158s on the Cambrian, hopefully in 2026.)

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Ok. It looks like 197038 came out of the South Yard yesterday. From what a Chester driver told me, there may be a few stored units at Crewe Electric.

I don't know what's at South Yard or the EMD because I don't go there. 038 I guess has been on test at the moment considering it's the newest 197.

 

[animationmilo]

197101 appears to be back out with 0730 from Manchester to south Wales

 

[sd0733]

197101 appears to be back out with 0730 from Manchester to south Wales

It did a couple of test runs Chester to Crewe and back yesterday too.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It is not the ability to run 2-car that is the problem. It is the inability to keep enough in service

There are still plenty of routes for which 2 and 3 car services are enough capacity, and TfW is a heavily subsidised TOC as it is. On paper, 2 and 3 car sets give a lot more flexibility to cope with a network with such vast differences in needs.

I wouldn't say 'plenty of routes', but I agree with the general idea that there are still a few services (and parts of services) where short trains (even down to 2-cars) are adequate.

I believe (purely from reading their posts) that @Krokodil works as train crew on TfW, and I value their insight into the issues that train crew working at the passenger interface have to deal with. It would be a great pity if the working train crew (drivers and guards) who post on these forums were to be discouraged from doing so.

Well said. The insider knowledge that railway staff (including, but not limited to, those in front-line roles such as drivers and guards) bring to these discussions is valuable and is to be welcomed. I'm not, and never have been, employed in the rail industry; as a result I've learnt quite a bit over the years from the staff who post here.

Chester is not the only place that a hot spare gets diagrammed. Canton will definitely have one, and I'm pretty sure that Abbey Foregate does too. Obviously you won't necessarily see those parked up on a given day because they may well have been used to plug gaps in availability (that is what spares are for, after all).

There aren't enough vehicles. The new fleet represented a 50% increase compared with old. Sounds great in theory. Except that peak* overcrowding of many trains with the old fleet was way more than 50%. Add on extra services (Operation Princess effect) and subtract the 230s which are still showing no signs of being reliable in service. 197 availability forecasts were very ambitious compared with the 175s they replaced.

As far as I can recall from discussions on this forum (and possibly others) at the time, the expected availability of units (not just 175s) during the latter part of Arriva Trains Wales' franchise (ATW) was already too tight. I dread to think what is being asked of the 197s.

TFW have just in the last few weeks been instructed to procure more stock by the Welsh assembly.

Ken Skates has asked TfW to "start the procurement process" for more trains.

Is there anything online about this either of you could provide a link to please? This is the first I've heard of it (earlier this year I read that TfW hadn't any plans for fleet changes beyond completing the rollout of their announced plans) and I'd be interested to learn more. Either here or in the new topic I recently started to avoid leading this one off-topic.

I don't believe there was ever a plan for Cardiff - Holyhead to go all 5 car, and between Cardiff and Chester that would be more capacity than required. It might be different along the coast in summer, but that more shows up the challenges of running so many Holyhead services to Cardiff when few passengers are travelling beyond Chester.

Cardiff - Holyhead was supposed to be 3 car 197's with standard premium, which never materialised, but are still booked 3 cars

I think there were similar discussions online around 2018, and I can't recall any promises of regular 5-car Holyhead (HHD) - Cardiff (CDF) workings either*. When the KeolisAmey/TfW franchise launched in 2018, 5 coach trains (all with first class and all formed of class 197s) were of course promised hourly between Swansea (SWA) and Manchester (MAN). On it's own, that would have consumed at least 18 diagrams (nine 197/0 and nine 197/1).

With only fourteen class 197s ordered for first class, this wouldn't have left enough units to also provide first class on all CDF-HHD services without slashing capacity of some services between Swansea and Carmarthen / Milford Haven or making passengers change at Swansea. That's because some of the Manchesters were previously formed of a 3-car class 175. I don't think the forums ever figured out how (or if) KeolisAmey/TfW planned to 'square that circle' - but then COVID (and the Grand Central mark 4s) arrived...

* I'm not sure if TfW even committed to extending their mark 4 sets to 5 passenger vehicles until COVID made the Grand Central rakes available

 

[Jez]

I think the original plan before the MK4s were brought in was for all Swansea to Manchester to have First Class which meant the all of the sets with First would have been on this route as think Swansea to Manchester required 9 or 10 diagrams for an hourly service with the near hour long turn around times at Swanssa (2 car containing to Wesr Wales as now). That would.leave a few spare for maintenance requirements and possibly a few on Cardiff to Holyhead. I belive the non first class 3 car units were then to do Holyhead to Cardiff and some of the Manchester to North Wales as now.

Of course now it's one service from Swansea every two hours that means the services that don't go through to Manchester and terminated in Cardiff are booked for 2 car from West Wales to Cardiff which isn't ideal particularly on Saturdays! Try any of these on a Saturday afternoon and often full and standing!

 

[CaergwrleKen]

197s have been covering on the Bidstons again due to the units up there failing again recently, even the thread about them was closed as people had decided they were running fine.