TfL possible long term funding settlement @ June Spending Review

[NCT]

The all day was set to one-fifth of the weekly price to avoid discriminating against part time workers. That principle is now largely set in stone.

It's a nice-to-have. Having had a few years of unaffordable freezes we need to respect the macro fiscal environment. European transport authorities make more of a point of encouraging people into 'subscriptions'. Once you are on a season ticket using public transport for evening and weekend journeys becomes a lifestyle baseline rather than a conscious choice.

 

[JonathanH]

Having had a few years of unaffordable freezes we need to respect the macro fiscal environment.

Which side are you arguing this from? I'm not clear. At the moment, the all-day cap is biting for users of National Rail services, but not those using the Underground. Indeed, does someone using only the underground for a journey from outer zones to zone 1 reach either a daily or weekly cap?

 

[NCT]

Which side are you arguing this from? I'm not clear. At the moment, the all-day cap is biting for users of National Rail services, but not those using the Underground. Indeed, does someone using only the underground for a journey from outer zones to zone 1 reach either a daily or weekly cap?

There are two issues.

1. The TfL-only fare (which the Mayor controls) is too cheap.

2. It really is time for the separate TfL+NR single charging to go. There's no reason why Crystal Palace to Bond Street should be more expensive via London Bridge NR than via Canada Water. However, for DfT to get a reasonable allocation from a unified single fare the single needs to go up.

 

[Thirteen]

It's a tricky situation because while TfL is in surplus, there is a need for more revenue in order to fund big ticket projects.

Fares increases alone cannot solve the problem so perhaps TfL and the Mayor need to come up with a strategy to do so.

 

[The Ham]

The thing with London is that if you make public transport too expensive you create traffic congestion.

Generally it's cheaper to keep ticket prices low to encourage less road travel than try and build extra roads to allow the traffic to grow.

If you look at American urban areas the amount of buildings can be quite limited due to the roads and car parks, which means less property taxes for a given amount of infrastructure to be maintained. Compare that to London where (even with large amounts of green space) there's a lot of buildings in a fairly small area - even though very high rise buildings are fairly new (due to the ground conditions).

 

[may032]

The thing with London is that if you make public transport too expensive you create traffic congestion.

Generally it's cheaper to keep ticket prices low to encourage less road travel than try and build extra roads to allow the traffic to grow.

If you look at American urban areas the amount of buildings can be quite limited due to the roads and car parks, which means less property taxes for a given amount of infrastructure to be maintained. Compare that to London where (even with large amounts of green space) there's a lot of buildings in a fairly small area - even though very high rise buildings are fairly new (due to the ground conditions).

Yes, the £1.75 and hopper fare currently create a real incentive for me to use the bus to nip into town. If it rises too much, that incentive wont be there for me and many others to leave the car on the drive.

 

[Cesarcollie]

The thing with London is that if you make public transport too expensive you create traffic congestion.

Generally it's cheaper to keep ticket prices low to encourage less road travel than try and build extra roads to allow the traffic to grow.

If you look at American urban areas the amount of buildings can be quite limited due to the roads and car parks, which means less property taxes for a given amount of infrastructure to be maintained. Compare that to London where (even with large amounts of green space) there's a lot of buildings in a fairly small area - even though very high rise buildings are fairly new (due to the ground conditions).

Agree, but the problem can also be solved by increased/extended congestion charge, workplace parking levies, road user charging and similar measures. These not only change the balance of costs between private and public transport, but provide a revenue stream to invest in public transport etc.

 

[NCT]

TfL's latest figures show Buses haemorrhaging £900m a year in net subsidies. That's got to go down.

Until something changes London exists to pay for the rest of the country not to pamper itself. That's the unfortunate fiscal reality we live in.

It's not that public transport is too expensive but running a car is still too cheap. Fuel duty needs going up by RPI+2% at this rate. Thankfully in London's planning context there's densification going on in all quarters and there's a natural increasing market scarcity of parking. Bus singles can go up but still be set such that two trips trigger the daily cap, and that'd still be competitive vs taking the car. Town centre congestion charges should start being considered.

Ironically freezing singles and dropping daily caps back in 2015-2016 has had the precise effect of driving people away from public transport. People were being taken out of season tickets so started Ubering for their weekend trips.

 

[Thirteen]

I suspect the bus and tram fare will only go up by 10p to 15p in 2026 as I think a rise to £2 per journey would not go down well with Londoners although I think it will go to £2 in the next few years.

I think Pay Per Mile may end up being introduced as a way to either raise revenue or to replace both ULEZ and Congestion Charge. Electric vehicles paying the congestion charge should bring in some extra revenue as well.

The Mayor should also try and lobby for a tourist tax as well because that would raise revenue not just for transport but for other improvements.

 

[JonathanH]

Ironically freezing singles and dropping daily caps back in 2015-2016 has had the precise effect of driving people away from public transport. People were being taken out of season tickets so started Ubering for their weekend trips.

Yes, I can see that. I think the concern is that for a lot of low income people, that the London economy depends on, the fare freezes have been absolutely appropriate. The fact that the fare freeze benefits those who can well afford to pay more for public transport and lead them to using uber at the weekend is unfortunate, but all flows back into the economy in some way.

Having said that, the same challenge applies with the cost of road transport.

 

[NCT]

Yes, I can see that. I think the concern is that for a lot of low income people, that the London economy depends on, the fare freezes have been absolutely appropriate. The fact that the fare freeze benefits those who can well afford to pay more for public transport and lead them to using uber at the weekend is unfortunate, but all flows back into the economy in some way.

Having said that, the same challenge applies with the cost of road transport.

It's how the money flows back through to TfL coffers and Treasury coffers that ultimately matters.

The rest of the country are getting by with £3 bus fares. Whichever way you cut it the £1.75 fare is a huge overindulgence.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The rest of the country are getting by with £3 bus fares. Whichever way you cut it the £1.75 fare is a huge overindulgence.

The £5.25 daily cap is probably a more appropriate comparator, though. And that isn't significantly different to what you would pay elsewhere (e.g. West Yorkshire it is £6).

 

[NCT]

The £5.25 daily cap is probably a more appropriate comparator, though. And that isn't significantly different to what you would pay elsewhere (e.g. West Yorkshire it is £6).

Someone making a daily return journey - which is what most people do - will only pay £3.50. Almost nobody would need to buy a Bus Pass.

 

[Thirteen]

I think increasing the bus and tram fares to £3 would be too much. Getting it to £2 might be easier to swallow.

 

[Sonic1234]

Town centre congestion charges should start being considered.

There are plenty of deprived town centres in Outer London. People will pay congestion charge to go to Westminster, very few people will to go to Orpington. Same can be said for road pricing and removing parking - in the down at heel outer London town centres it will just push the remaining customers to Amazon et al.

 

[absolutelymilk]

There are plenty of deprived town centres in Outer London. People will pay congestion charge to go to Westminster, very few people will to go to Orpington. Same can be said for road pricing and removing parking - in the down at heel outer London town centres it will just push the remaining customers to Amazon et al.

Probably better to start with inner London and then expand outwards!