ETCS? Thameslink handles those kind of numbers using that instead of CBTC.
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HS2 Old Oak Common
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kevin_roche
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I read somewhere that there are plans to add auto reverse ability to ETCS. It already has Automatic driving ability. It cannot yet stop accurately enough to align the platform doors and that is going to be needed for the HS2 platforms at OOC.
I thought it had been said that not all trains will go to OOC, a certain amount will still terminate at Paddington.
Auto Reverse will almost certainly not happen on safety grounds, there’s no way reversing into platforms with no driver or screen doors will be allowed.
E6007
Member
All very easy in normal operation but if either the main or relief lines are closed during maintenance or service perturbation, both would need to use the same platform if they are to call.
To add to comments about Elizabeth Line frequency, see this article from IanVisits, both packages proposed with the new trains give Old Oak Common 18tph, not the full core frequency.
I believed there would dedicated EL platforms at OOC with level boarding, therefore it would be a no brainer to install PSDs. Secondly as far as I believe the driver is in control under autoreverse for the whole period the train is in passenger service, and is only autoreversing while empty/small number of overrunning passengers.
As mentioned above engineering works will mean other train have to use OOC. You might be able to add PSODs on the inner platforms but not the outer, otherwise GWR won't be able to stop at all.
This is true for the fairly lengthy reverse to Paddington, but the sidings are very close to OOC. The time a driver takes to walk the train means autoreverse wouldn't be able to do any reversing before a driver would have to be in control.
On Thameslink, only with ATO. And it’s a bespoke form of ATO over ETCS. To do this on the GWML would need a new, additional, ‘box of tricks’ on the 345s. I wouldnt want to be the person responsibke for integrating that!
They are already lowering that road, to take double deckers. It may not be capable of further lowering, especially when the alternative is raising the platform.
When an NR (not core) platform is at the height for level boarding for the class 345, does it add any additional problems to add platform screen doors? The only answer I can think of is the Heathrow Express trains, which have the same floor height but a different door pattern.
If you add platform screen doors you will likely need to run the trains in ATO on ETCS, something which as mentioned above isn’t currently possible. (I believe the HSE decided PSD without ATO isn’t allowed almost 2 decades ago). Even if you didn’t have ATO you need to train drivers to precise stop, I understand they have issues stopping the 345s at markers as it is.
There would need to be some auto-reverse capacity built in then. ETCS can’t currently do what CBTC does and is utilised for right now. Bare in mind a 345 is already an incredibly complex software package too!
Yes but you won’t get to 24tph, only 18tph as listed above. I’m pretty sure HS2 thinks 24tph are needed although 18tph should be fine. That’s the peak not off-peak frequency.
zwk500
Veteran Member
Siemens seem to think it is: https://www.mobility.siemens.com/gl...ns-software/infrastructure/ato-over-etcs.html
Whether that's deployable on a line like the GWML I don't know, but I seem to remember some posters on other threads saying HS2 will open with ATO over ETCS L2? Happy to be corrected on that point!
You’d have to define “in control”. They can physically leave the cab as soon as they’ve moved off Paddington and might not get back to the other until 7 minutes later.
AR is not permitted in open-air sections currently with the exception of Westbourne Park as there are motion cameras in the event of any trespass.
It's possible, I was referring to a couple of posts above mine (#818), where it was mentioned it is difficult, if not impossible to bring to the 345s.
Yes my point was you don't need autoreverse to reach 18tph. Regardless of what HS2 thinks, there aren't the trains for it.
Yes, ATO over ETCS is possible - it is used on Thameslink. However the Thameslink application was the first in the world, and is a one off design. There is a standard protocol for ATO over ETCS now, which is what Siemens are highlighting (/selling) on that site.
AIUI, though, there isn’t protocol for Autoreverse nor platform screen doors in ETCS yet. But I hather that is coming.
zwk500
Veteran Member
If ATO for S-Bahn/Metro is now a standard protocol in ETCS, I am not surprised PSDs are not far behind. I'm a bit suprised PSDs weren't in ETCS earlier. Is the Autoreverse protocol going to be part of the standards or still a bespoke thing?
Is there anywhere which could be called main line in Europe with PSDs apart from Crossrail? I'm fairly confident there isn't, so it's not that surprising that it's not a feature
zwk500
Veteran Member
I'm not surprised they weren't in the first iterations of it, but once ETCS started being considered for metro applications it is a little surprising PEDs didn't start to be considered.
There is an IRSE article about a metro line in India's National Capital Region that used Packet 44 (a customisable packet for individual national needs) to operate the PEDs over ETCS. https://ncrtc.in/implementation-of-etcs-packet-44-for-platform-screen-door-management/
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That I don’t know.
As a reminder the biggest issue previously identified by those tasked with delivering level boarding at OOC is freight wagons not any of the stuff mentioned above recently.
The station and reversing siding layout is less problematic operationally than Paddington/Westbourne. Having said that "Auto-depart" westbound to the reversing siding (but no auto-reverse) would be useful and do-able (no different to TL core station departure).
The station and reversing siding layout is less problematic operationally than Paddington/Westbourne. Having said that "Auto-depart" westbound to the reversing siding (but no auto-reverse) would be useful and do-able (no different to TL core station departure).
Snow1964
Established Member
Couple of drone videos of the site (issued by the firm with the two heavy lift cranes), which concentrates on the cranes, but gives good idea of the current status of construction
And almost certainly heading off to Sizewell C after OOC. (Previously at Hinkley Point C).
Snow1964
Established Member
New drone video, with Old Oak Common area in lot more detail.
Towards the end of video, some new track just west of the new Elizabeth line platforms (the northernmost surface platform island) can be seen.
Towards the end of video, some new track just west of the new Elizabeth line platforms (the northernmost surface platform island) can be seen.
absolutelymilk
Established Member
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Hi all, I'm looking to add a recent photo of the construction to the Old Oak Common Wikipedia page. Does anyone have a photo they would be willing to share, to be added to the page (which would be credited to you)?
Fazaar1889
Member
May be best to screenshot from a recent drone video. With permission of course
Nottingham59
Established Member
There are videos on YouTube that have been released under creative commons licences that look suitable.
Snow1964
Established Member
HS2 have announced that work will begin 23rd July on constructing the substation to power Old Oak Common station. Will take until 15th December 2025
Snow1964
Established Member
New drone video of Old Oak Common HS2 site
First part of video shows main site with the first 3 pairs of platforms for GW main line taking shape. Then moves over the HS2 station where some platforms can be glimpsed through the escalator openings. There are also two large round chimney like structures which I guess are air shafts that will eventually be through the surface building.
Video then moves to the Victoria box area where the conveyors etc seem to be starting to be removed now that TBMs have finished. Work still seems to be going on here, probably in tapered tunnels towards the station, but I guess probably one of the first areas to be released for post construction use.
Video then moves to Atlas Road (logistics) area where the segment stacks are currently empty. But there appear to be number of segment transporters lined up. Presumably this area will come back to life when Euston bound TBMs start. The ramp to the logistics tunnel is clearly visible
The logistics site is larger than I expected (especially if you include the adjacent bus parking area, which was opened when Elizabeth line was built at Westbourne Park garage). I assume it will all be redeveloped into a new district when HS2 construction is finished
First part of video shows main site with the first 3 pairs of platforms for GW main line taking shape. Then moves over the HS2 station where some platforms can be glimpsed through the escalator openings. There are also two large round chimney like structures which I guess are air shafts that will eventually be through the surface building.
Video then moves to the Victoria box area where the conveyors etc seem to be starting to be removed now that TBMs have finished. Work still seems to be going on here, probably in tapered tunnels towards the station, but I guess probably one of the first areas to be released for post construction use.
Video then moves to Atlas Road (logistics) area where the segment stacks are currently empty. But there appear to be number of segment transporters lined up. Presumably this area will come back to life when Euston bound TBMs start. The ramp to the logistics tunnel is clearly visible
The logistics site is larger than I expected (especially if you include the adjacent bus parking area, which was opened when Elizabeth line was built at Westbourne Park garage). I assume it will all be redeveloped into a new district when HS2 construction is finished
When they suppose to swing running of the GWML through the new platforms? I think a big Xmas blockade is planned for that, don't remember which year.
Looking at the video there is very little activity on the viaducts above the Old Oak Common Lane. It doesn't look like they even started piling for the new realigned spans.