Could Stansted to Norwich trains be lengthened?

[DynamicSpirit]

Moderator note: Split from

Are some trains too long?

I am typing this now on a Stansted Express service where I have the front 4 carriages just to myself (and the driver). I appreciate excess capacity can sometimes be useful, but surely this much is a waste of electricity?

www.railforums.co.uk

Out of interest, what exactly is preventing Stansted Airport from taking longer trains to Norwich? The platform capacity looks like it ought to be adequate?

 

[WestAnglian]

Out of interest, what exactly is preventing Stansted Airport from taking longer trains to Norwich? The platform capacity looks like it ought to be adequate?

The Norwich services double-dock with 12-car FLIRTs.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Norwich services double-dock with 12-car FLIRTs.

Why? Stansted Airport has 3 platforms. You'd think 2 platforms would be enough for the London services, so why is there not a full spare platform for the 2tph to the North?

 

[bspahh]

Why? Stansted Airport has 3 platforms. You'd think 2 platforms would be enough for the London services, so why is there not a full spare platform for the 2tph to the North?

In https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/possible-waml-changes.279020/post-7093278 @Magdalia wrote on the length of platform 2 at Stansted Airport

My Sectional Appendix says 91m. 4 cars of 20m stock should be ok, but not 5 cars. I think a 4 car class 755 would fit.

In https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ansted-airport-transport.261694/#post-6604537 @Bald Rick wrote on whether there is space to extend the length of platform 2 at Stansted Airport?:

There isn’t. I‘ve seen the reports.

In https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/possible-waml-changes.279020/#post-7093503
@Magdalia wrote

Platform 1 is long enough to take a class 745 and another train so the Norwich's usually go there. A class 745 usually comes in and out on top while the Norwich train is on the stops.

Greater Anglia don't use platform 2 because it is booked to be occupied by the Cross Country service for 46 minutes in each hour that it runs.

If platform 2 is not electrified (I can't remember one way or the other), that need not prevent class 755s from using it, they are bimodes. But platforms 1 and 3 are electric trains only so a class 755 driver needs to know where they are going!

 

[Magdalia]

In https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/possible-waml-changes.279020/post-7093278 @Magdalia wrote on the length of platform 2 at Stansted Airport



In https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ansted-airport-transport.261694/#post-6604537 @Bald Rick wrote on whether there is space to extend the length of platform 2 at Stansted Airport?:


In https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/possible-waml-changes.279020/#post-7093503
@Magdalia wrote

Thanks, I'm impressed at your skills at bringing that together! It isn't something that I would have attempted.

 

[dk1]

Double units cannot be accommodated at all intermediate stations between Ely and Norwich and would not allow them to serve Stansted Airport as a 12-car Stansted Express has to terminate & depart on top.

There were tentative plans for 3-cars to be extended to 4, but that’s gone quiet. No additional vehicles will be added to 4-cars.

The best option on the table medium term is to operate half-hourly Norwich-Cambridge, which happens now some hours during engineering works on the GEML and when NCFC are playing at home.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Double units cannot be accommodated at all intermediate stations between Ely and Norwich and would not allow them to serve Stansted Airport as a 12-car Stansted Express has to terminate & depart on top. There were tentative plans for 3-cars to be extended to 4 but that’s gone quiet. No additional vehicles will be added to 4-cars. Best option on the table medium term is to operate half-hourly Norwich-Cambridge which happens now some hours during engineering works on the GEML and when NCFC are playing at home.

End of the day Ely area improvement needs to happen and half-hourly to Stansted but are there paths south of Cambridge to achieve this. I've always thought the Breakland line could be much better utilised if it was improved, but there much more improvements to be made elsewhere.

 

[trebor79]

Double units cannot be accommodated at all intermediate stations between Ely and Norwich and would not allow them to serve Stansted Airport as a 12-car Stansted Express has to terminate & depart on top.

Perhaps some the time but definitely this did not happen on Sunday, and everything was running to time. 1309 desisted from Stansted. Does feel like with timetabling there's maybe no need to put another train in the platform.
ASDO weighs take care of the short platform thing, and the really short platforms I think are all at the stations that only get a parliamentary service anyway, so hardly a big deal.

There were tentative plans for 3-cars to be extended to 4 but that’s gone quiet. No additional vehicles will be added to 4-cars. Best option on the table medium term is to operate half-hourly Norwich-Cambridge which happens now some hours during engineering works on the GEML and when NCFC are playing at home.

If only the Ely North issue could be resolved.

End of the day Ely area improvement needs to happen and half hourly to Stansted but are there paths south of Cambridge to achieve this. I've always thought the Breakland line could be much better utilised if it was improved but there much more improvements to be made elsewhere.

Agree, it's relatively busy for a rural line and I think higher frequency would see yet more people use it.

 

[Magdalia]

If only the Ely North issue could be resolved.

The simplest solution is longer trains.

ASDO weighs take care of the short platform thing, and the really short platforms I think are all at the stations that only get a parliamentary service anyway, so hardly a big deal.

But not at termini. The biggest obstacle to longer trains is platform capacity at Stansted Airport.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Agree, it's relatively busy for a rural line and I think higher frequency would see yet more people use it.

A half hourly service I'm sure would still fill the trains, and if it got electrified it would make GAs movement of the 745s much simpler.

 

[WestAnglian]

Indeed. In fact yesterday the Norwich train used an empty platform 3 directly after the Stansted Express departed. There was another Stansted Express just arrived on platform 1. I think with a bit of timetable jiggery-pokery it ought to be possible to avoid Norwich trains using Platform 2.

How? The 12-car FLIRTS sit at Stansted for about 18 minutes. The only way to reduce platform occupancy at Stansted would be to have them go straight back out, and I can't see a three-minute turnround working at Stansted even if the incoming service was on time. It tales lomger than that just for the incoming passengers to get off. Maybe you could alter the timings of the incoming trains so they arrived slightly earlier but that would mean a recast of the entire West Anglia timetable.
It might be easier to find a way to reduce the Cross Country dwell time. They have very long turnarounds in platform 2.

 

[Magdalia]

It might be easier to find a way to reduce the Cross Country dwell time. They have very long turnarounds in platform 2.

I agree that this is low hanging fruit. But, while the service is operated by Cross Country, it is being managed by people hundreds of miles away who couldn't care less.

It is one of the reasons why I think that a Stansted-Peterborough service operated by Greater Anglia would lead to improvements, they have a much bigger incentive to do something.

 

[saismee]

It might be easier to find a way to reduce the Cross Country dwell time.

There goes even more of XC's punctuality.

I agree that this is low hanging fruit. But, while the service is operated by Cross Country, it is being managed by people hundreds of miles away who couldn't care less.

It is one of the reasons why I think that a Stansted-Peterborough service operated by Greater Anglia would lead to improvements, they have a much bigger incentive to do something.

I agree, it's very much more GA's territory. Maybe the XC service could terminate at Cambridge and a new GA service could take over the PBO stuff. This would then require Ely North upgrades, and it's certain nothing will change until after re-nationalisation.

 

[trebor79]

How? The 12-car FLIRTS sit at Stansted for about 18 minutes. The only way to reduce platform occupancy at Stansted would be to have them go straight back out, and I can't see a three-minute turnround working at Stansted even if the incoming service was on time. It tales lomger than that just for the incoming passengers to get off. Maybe you could alter the timings of the incoming trains so they arrived slightly earlier but that would mean a recast of the entire West Anglia timetable.
It might be easier to find a way to reduce the Cross Country dwell time. They have very long turnarounds in platform 2.

All is know is the 1309 to Norwich arrived on P3 at 1303 after the Stansted Express departed at 1300. The Norwich service then departed at 1309 as per timetable.

I agree that this is low hanging fruit. But, while the service is operated by Cross Country, it is being managed by people hundreds of miles away who couldn't care less.

It is one of the reasons why I think that a Stansted-Peterborough service operated by Greater Anglia would lead to improvements, they have a much bigger incentive to do something.

Agree it doesn't help XC occupy P2 for very long periods of time. I guess it's recovery time so the outbound service can depart on time if the inbound is delayed.

 

[dk1]

All is know is the 1309 to Norwich arrived on P3 at 1303 after the Stansted Express departed at 1300. The Norwich service then departed at 1309 as per timetable.

Yes, the schedules and available paths are very different on weekdays.

 

[Bald Rick]

Agree it doesn't help XC occupy P2 for very long periods of time. I guess it's recovery time so the outbound service can depart on time if the inbound is delayed.

It’s needed to match the inbound and outbound paths. It has some constrained and very congested infrastructure to get through - Stansted tunnel, Shepreth Branch Junction, Cambridge, Ely North, Peterborough, Leicester and the approaches to New St

 

[Class 170101]

XC also use Stansted as a PNB Point so the long turnaround also covers as the crew's break.

The restriction is the tunnel itself - single track.

I agree that this is low hanging fruit. But, while the service is operated by Cross Country, it is being managed by people hundreds of miles away who couldn't care less.

Disagree, it generates revenue for them so they should care and secondly the fact the hourly service has come back suggests they do care. If they didn't care it would have never come back post covid.

It is one of the reasons why I think that a Stansted-Peterborough service operated by Greater Anglia would lead to improvements, they have a much bigger incentive to do something.

But how do you solve Peterborough station built with through platforms and services terminating there rather than carrying on through it? Sorry but GA running it isn't the right idea!

 

[ScotGG]

The Breckland line is on the way becoming more of a Metro (!) with the mass housebuilding plans along it at various stations. Attleborough is to double in size. Wymondham has seen thousands of homes approved. Thetford is growing etc. The rest of thr stations between Norwich and Ely are little more than halts with scarce services. It certainly needs better than 1 tph (and sometime less than that)

 

[Class 170101]

A half hourly service I'm sure would still fill the trains, and if it got electrified it would make GAs movement of the 745s much simpler.

A half hourly service might be possible between Norwich and Cambridge but not to Stansted Airport.

The Breckland line is on the way becoming more of a Metro (!) with the mass housebuilding plans along it at various stations. Attleborough is to double in size. Wymondham has seen thousands of homes approved. Thetford is growing etc. The rest of thr stations between Norwich and Ely are little more than halts with scarce services. It certainly needs better than 1 tph (and sometime less than that)

Some of the 'halts' are apparently to see house building too.

In any event the whole route is covered twice per hour:-
1tph NRW - SSD
1tph NRW - ELY (onwards to Nottingham)
1tph SSD - ELY (onwards to Birmingham)
an extra NRW to CBG would be useful and in some hours (especially on Weekends) its possible to get a path across Ely North Jn but I can't see it going to Stansted due to too many constraints to match up a viable path. In my view it should be the start of as future path to EWR destinations (but I'll leave it there).

 

[Magdalia]

But how do you solve Peterborough station built with through platforms and services terminating there rather than carrying on through it?

According to the Sectional Appendix permissive working is in full use for all of platforms 1, 2, 4. 5, 6 and 7 at Peterborough.

A Stansted Airport-Peterborough would also have fewer pathing constraints, with Leicester and Birmingham taken out of the equation.

 

[Class 170101]

According to the Sectional Appendix permissive working is in full use for all of platforms 1, 2, 4. 5, 6 and 7 at Peterborough.

A Stansted Airport-Peterborough would also have fewer pathing constraints, with Leicester and Birmingham taken out of the equation.

Not relevant, Peterborough platforms would still be occupied for a significant period of time blocking access for other trains to pass through including Freight.

XC would say they also get demand from west of Peterborough towards Stansted Airport and Cambridge.

 

[dk1]

Not relevant, Peterborough platforms would still be occupied for a significant period of time blocking access for other trains to pass through including Freight.

XC would say they also get demand from west of Peterborough towards Stansted Airport and Cambridge.

Both solid reasons why the route is not going to be split.

 

[Magdalia]

Not relevant, Peterborough platforms would still be occupied for a significant period of time blocking access for other trains to pass through including Freight.

Freight has its own 2 way goods loop at Peterborough, and can also use all of platforms 4-7.

XC would say they also get demand from west of Peterborough towards Stansted Airport and Cambridge.

West of Peterborough to Cambridge and Stansted flows are tiny compared to the flows Peterborough-Cambridge-Stansted.

More Cambridge passengers change at Peterborough for ECML destinations than go through towards Birmingham.

 

[Trainbike46]

The easiest solution to increase capacity on this route is to ensure all services are booked for maximum length, I believe almost all GA services are 4-cars, but that there are some XC services that are only 2 or 3 cars. A few years ago there were some "missing" XC services from the hourly pattern, but I'd hope those have all been reinstated by now?

 

[saismee]

In any event the whole route is covered twice per hour:-
1tph NRW - SSD
1tph NRW - ELY (onwards to Nottingham)
1tph SSD - ELY (onwards to Birmingham)

As far as I remember, the EMR services only call at Thetford between Norwich and Ely.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

As far as I remember, the EMR services only call at Thetford between Norwich and Ely.

I swear they used to regularly call at Wymondham several years ago.

I've always thought the Breakland line could be much better utilised if it was improved

The Breckland line is on the way becoming more of a Metro (!) with the mass housebuilding plans along it at various stations.

The Norfolk County Council Rail Prospectus has expressed a desire to up the GA service to 2tph and apparently even of the EMR service to 2tph as far as Nottingham in some kind of best case scenario (so 4tph). They also aspire for electrification of the Breakland Line along with some kind of freight hub at Snetterton. Obviously this isn't really a report, and by no means a plan - but some kind of official opinion.

 

[dk1]

As far as I remember, the EMR services only call at Thetford between Norwich and Ely.

Several call at Wymondham and Attleborough. The 15:48 ex-Norwich calls at Eccles Road & Harling Road and the first Nottingham-Norwich also stops at Brandon.

 

[trebor79]

The Breckland line is on the way becoming more of a Metro (!) with the mass housebuilding plans along it at various stations. Attleborough is to double in size. Wymondham has seen thousands of homes approved. Thetford is growing etc. The rest of thr stations between Norwich and Ely are little more than halts with scarce services. It certainly needs better than 1 tph (and sometime less than that)

I had a similar thought. It's not total fantasy to think that I'm the not too distant future it would warrant 15 minute frequency and some additional stations. But that would require a lot of new signalling etc and will probably never happen.

 

[dk1]

I had a similar thought. It's not total fantasy to think that I'm the not too distant future it would warrant 15 minute frequency and some additional stations. But that would require a lot of new signalling etc and will probably never happen.

You won’t see any uplift in signalling apart from the new section going in when Croxton gets upgraded from AHB to MCB-OD. That will hopefully help when GA are following a late running EMR on the down and has to wait outside Thetford to gain access to the platform. It is perfectly adequate apart from that and was only resignalled less than 15yrs ago.

 

[trebor79]

You won’t see any uplift in signalling apart from the new section going in when Croxton gets upgraded from AHB to MCB-OD. That will hopefully help when GA are following a late running EMR on the down and has to wait outside Thetford to gain access to the platform. It is perfectly adequate apart from that and was only resignalled less than 15yrs ago.

Yes I'm aware of the resignalling, but all they did really was replace the mechanically signalled block sections with colour lights. It was and is perfectly adequate for the service on the line now.
What I'm saying is that with Wymondham, Attleborough, Thetford and even some of the smaller villages along the line being expanded massively there will be a lot of latent demand untapped if the service remains 1tph.