Could Stansted to Norwich trains be lengthened?

[nw1]

I had a similar thought. It's not total fantasy to think that I'm the not too distant future it would warrant 15 minute frequency and some additional stations. But that would require a lot of new signalling etc and will probably never happen.

I have to admit not knowing that part of the country at all but the picture I have in my mind is of sparsely populated countryside, so any new building would have to be on an absolutely massive scale to warrant a London suburban-style frequency! The image I have in my mind is a line of infrequently-served halts leading to miles and miles of empty countryside with wide-open views, and the odd small town. Perhaps not unlike the lowland parts of rural France (e.g. the area you pass through on Eurostar between Lille and Paris, or between Paris and Orleans) in terms of landscape character and population density. In fact that's what I imagine most of Norfolk and Suffolk to be like outside Norwich, Ipswich, and the coastal towns.

I may be completely wrong though, I've never penetrated deeper into East Anglia than Cambridge and Colchester so I have a mental image which might be significantly different from reality.

 

[ScotGG]

nw1 - Towns along it have seen a lot of change in the past 10+ years and the line has some fast growing spots with further growth. 4,000 homes in Attleborough are approved with many walkable to the station. Thousands planned in Wymondham. A lot were recently built to the south of the station and a new underpass is being built below the platforms as we speak given the increase in local population. In fact the work compound is on another site with housing proposed directly next to the station. 4 tph may be a bit much but 2 tph would see good custom.

A 2tph service between Norwich and Cambridge would be popular. It'd also help if the EMR services stopped at the big towns between Ely and Norwich providing 2 tph but given how that route is very prone to delays and cancellations as it is apart from the handful a day that do stop at bigger towns aside from Thetford I can't see it happening. Perhaps if newer, faster accelerating stock arrives.

1 EMR ph calling at Norwich, Wymondham, Attleborough, Thetford, Brandon then Ely would allow a change at Ely for onward travel to Cambridge.

As we're in speculation discussion a way to make it more a metro-like would be two stations in Norwich/just outside near substantial new housing. One being Cringleford where many homes are being built (better bus and cycle links needed though) which would also not be massively far from the uni and hospital and the other reopening the old station ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trowse_railway_station ) near the Mustard factory which will see huge redevelopment. Norwich city council plans 3,000 homes and 4,000 jobs in the area and the line passes right beside. That'd probably need the swing bridge to be upgraded which has been talked about for years and it is close to norwich station. Depends how big they want to go with redeveloping the surrounding area. Norwich is an ever growing and more popular city with a youthful population (it voting heavily green like many uni towns) that are likely to use trains if the service is there. Perhaps if the greens do well in future elections they'll push for improvements.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I have to admit not knowing that part of the country at all but the picture I have in my mind is of sparsely populated countryside, so any new building would have to be on an absolutely massive scale to warrant a London suburban-style frequency! The image I have in my mind is a line of infrequently-served halts leading to miles and miles of empty countryside with wide-open views, and the odd small town. Perhaps not unlike the lowland parts of rural France (e.g. the area you pass through on Eurostar between Lille and Paris, or between Paris and Orleans) in terms of landscape character and population density. In fact that's what I imagine most of Norfolk and Suffolk to be like outside Norwich, Ipswich, and the coastal towns.

I may be completely wrong though, I've never penetrated deeper into East Anglia than Cambridge and Colchester so I have a mental image which might be significantly different from reality.

I have to admit it is a little like that. Wymondham, Attleborough, Thetford, Brandon are the actual towns where a number of people actually get on and off - Spooner Row, Eccles Road, Harling Road, Lakenheath, Shippea Hill are the nothing halts where no trains even stop at. Tbf, Lakenheath gets served regularly on a Sunday because of the people visiting the conservation area - so there is an argument for making some more trains stop there.

I don't think it'll ever be a commuter line in its own right but up to 4tph could run across it more because the regional connections in allows for (Norwich to Cambridge/Stansted/Peterborough/Midlands) are all quite important and well used. There are lots of housing planned along the route - but I see it as two contributing factors for a signalling/electrification upgrade. The biggest problem with upping the frequency may turn out to be level crossings.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2025 ==

As we're in speculation discussion a way to make it more a metro-like would be two stations in Norwich/just outside near substantial new housing. One being Cringleford where many homes are being built (better bus and cycle links needed though) which would also not be massively far from the uni and hospital and the other reopening the old station ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trowse_railway_station ) near the Mustard factory which will see huge redevelopment. Norwich city council plans 3,000 homes and 4,000 jobs in the area and the line passes right beside. That'd probably need the swing bridge to be upgraded which has been talked about for years and it is close to norwich station. Depends how big they want to go with redeveloping the surrounding area. Norwich is an ever growing and more popular city with a youthful population (it voting heavily green like many uni towns) that are likely to use trains if the service is there. Perhaps if the greens do well in future elections they'll push for improvements.

I'm not sure I'd agree with re-opening Trowse for that development. I think it'd be better served with a tram. I've always thought the first tram route for Norwich would be the covering the route of the Blue bus line - so UEA/NNUH to the railway station, then going down Carrow road over a new river bridge to get the new Trowse development

 

[RailWonderer]

I don't think it'll ever be a commuter line in its own right but up to 4tph could run across it more because the regional connections in allows for (Norwich to Cambridge/Stansted/Peterborough/Midlands) are all quite important and well used. There are lots of housing planned along the route - but I see it as two contributing factors for a signalling/electrification upgrade. The biggest problem with upping the frequency may turn out to be level crossings.

If the population of the Breckland belt as I put it, increases by 10k plus after all the homes are built and people move in and a half hourly frequency is deemed necessary, I'm sure funding will be provided to replace some level crossings with underpasses.

 

[dk1]

Yes I'm aware of the resignalling, but all they did really was replace the mechanically signalled block sections with colour lights. It was and is perfectly adequate for the service on the line now.
What I'm saying is that with Wymondham, Attleborough, Thetford and even some of the smaller villages along the line being expanded massively there will be a lot of latent demand untapped if the service remains 1tph.

It really is more than enough. We already regularly see 3 sometimes 4 passenger trains in each direction in certain hours during GEML blocks and footy. The ultimate plan is half hourly Cambridge-Norwich along with an hourly inter-regional which the signalling is more than able to cope with and even more so when Croxton is upgraded. Ely North Jcn is the pinchpoint.

 

[Brubulus]

An easy(ish) way to provide 2tph from Cambridge to Peterborough would be to make the service 4 cars from Ely instead of Nottingham, this would also give Cambridge a direct link to Nottingham, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool. However a split/join at Ely would be fun operationally though the number of movements through Ely North would not increase.

 

[dk1]

An easy(ish) way to provide 2tph from Cambridge to Peterborough would be to make the service 4 cars from Ely instead of Nottingham, this would also give Cambridge a direct link to Nottingham, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool. However a split/join at Ely would be fun operationally though the number of movements through Ely North would not increase.

That’s the trouble. It becomes an operational nightmare. Ely, flexible as it is, struggles at times for platform space.

 

[cle]

It would be useful if bays were considered for Ely, knowing that extra services might be able to sneak in and out without major crossing moves. A local hourly to Norwich would be one example, which could connect into a Cambridge/London fast. Another might be a 2 hourly via Soham, to bolster that to hourly. Or a Peterborough-bound extra service.

But then a lot of people are changing at Ely, it's not the ultimate destination for many.

 

[dk1]

It would be useful if bays were considered for Ely, knowing that extra services might be able to sneak in and out without major crossing moves. A local hourly to Norwich would be one example, which could connect into a Cambridge/London fast. Another might be a 2 hourly via Soham, to bolster that to hourly. Or a Peterborough-bound extra service.

But then a lot of people are changing at Ely, it's not the ultimate destination for many.

Where would you put bays arriving from the north end without closing the through freight avoiding line?

 

[Class 170101]

The easiest solution to increase capacity on this route is to ensure all services are booked for maximum length, I believe almost all GA services are 4-cars, but that there are some XC services that are only 2 or 3 cars. A few years ago there were some "missing" XC services from the hourly pattern, but I'd hope those have all been reinstated by now?

All the XC are back between Stansted and Birmingham but not all the EMR services between Norwich and Nottingham

As far as I remember, the EMR services only call at Thetford between Norwich and Ely.

Some call at Wymondham, Attleborough, Thetford. More used to but the EMR has now become the express train between Norwich and Ely.

You won’t see any uplift in signalling apart from the new section going in when Croxton gets upgraded from AHB to MCB-OD. That will hopefully help when GA are following a late running EMR on the down and has to wait outside Thetford to gain access to the platform. It is perfectly adequate apart from that and was only resignalled less than 15yrs ago.

It would help if the Thetford to Brandon section was provided with an intermediate block to break up what is the longest section across that route

It really is more than enough. We already regularly see 3 sometimes 4 passenger trains in each direction in certain hours during GEML blocks and footy. The ultimate plan is half hourly Cambridge-Norwich along with an hourly inter-regional which the signalling is more than able to cope with and even more so when Croxton is upgraded. Ely North Jcn is the pinchpoint.

See Thetford to Brandon above as well. But what doesn't help is when a Class 6 goes across there limited to 40mph over some sections, it really swallows capacity.

 

[cle]

There are two lines east of the platform road, both aren't fully utilized and one should be sufficient. Also, you could eminent and take some of the field to build a side platform (through or not) - it's not that sacred and might have a lesser impact than some of the road closures and bridges / bypasses being discussed. Adding a few incremental local services into Ely (plus wires and longer trains) - might help support growth.

Only thing is that everyone wants Cambridge direct.

 

[Class 170101]

Freight has its own 2 way goods loop at Peterborough, and can also use all of platforms 4-7.

Except if its crossing the ECML to GBRF sidings. Also the Two Way Goods is now only one loop vice two since Platforms 6 and 7 were built

West of Peterborough to Cambridge and Stansted flows are tiny compared to the flows Peterborough-Cambridge-Stansted.

More Cambridge passengers change at Peterborough for ECML destinations than go through towards Birmingham.

I would love to see your data on that

 

[William3000]

XC also use Stansted as a PNB Point so the long turnaround also covers as the crew's break.

The restriction is the tunnel itself - single track.


Disagree, it generates revenue for them so they should care and secondly the fact the hourly service has come back suggests they do care. If they didn't care it would have never come back post covid.


But how do you solve Peterborough station built with through platforms and services terminating there rather than carrying on through it? Sorry but GA running it isn't the right idea!

A platform 8 on the western side for the Ipswich terminators and additional Cambridge/Stansted terminators.

 

[dk1]

A platform 8 on the western side for the Ipswich terminators and additional Cambridge/Stansted terminators.

Isn’t that where the planned western station entrance is going next to the goods avoiding line?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I just hope Ely area improvements go ahead in the right form and are not cut to the cheapest solution as there is clearly a substantial need for extra paths, I'm not even sure in what's been talked about will give enough capacity.

4 carriage trains are probably the maximum sensible length along Breakland line otherwise you're into costly platform extensions without solving fundamentals of the constraints of Ely, longer trains for Norwich Stansted and Ipswich Peterborough/Ipswich Cambridge and Norwich Nottingham imo aren't the right answer.

When EWR reaches Cambridge, there could well be an uplift in passengers from Norwich, Ipswich and Colchester going to Oxford/ Milton Keynes/ Bedford so you would think it's only a question of time before improvements are made.

 

[Magdalia]

I would love to see your data on that

Here it is, from Rail Data, all the one way flows >1k

Cambridge to/from Birmingham line, west of Peterborough

Birmingham 15.3k
Leicester 10.7k
Stamford 10.0k
M Mowbray 5.3k
Oakham 4.8k
Nuneaton 1.6k

Total 47.7k

Cambridge to from ECML

Edinburgh 12.4k
York 11.2k
Leeds 10.3k
Newcastle 6.4k
Durham 3.3k
Lincoln 2.8k
Doncaster 2.2k
Grantham 1.4k
Darlington 1.3k
Newark 1.2k
Wakefield 1.1k

Total 53.6k

While I was looking, here are some of the relevant shorter distance flows to/from Cambridge:

Stansted Airport 200.9k
Peterborough 79.5k
Norwich 76.4k
March 33.4k
Thetford 15.8k
Brandon 13.6k
Wymondham 9.0k
Attleborough 5.2k
Manea 3.4k
Whittlesea 1.8k

One other interesting feature of the data is the flows to/from the East Coast via Norwich:

Great Yarmouth 6.2k
Lowestoft 2.3k
Cromer 2.1k
Sheringham 1.9k

I suspect that these are quite seasonal.

Only thing is that everyone wants Cambridge direct.

This is a bit of an exaggeration, but not much!

 

[dk1]

Here it is, from Rail Data, all the one way flows >1k

Cambridge to/from Birmingham line, west of Peterborough

Birmingham 15.3k
Leicester 10.7k
Stamford 10.0k
M Mowbray 5.3k
Oakham 4.8k
Nuneaton 1.6k

Total 47.7k

Cambridge to from ECML

Edinburgh 12.4k
York 11.2k
Leeds 10.3k
Newcastle 6.4k
Durham 3.3k
Lincoln 2.8k
Doncaster 2.2k
Grantham 1.4k
Darlington 1.3k
Newark 1.2k
Wakefield 1.1k

Total 53.6k

While I was looking, here are some of the relevant shorter distance flows to/from Cambridge:

Stansted Airport 200.9k
Peterborough 79.5k
Norwich 76.4k
March 33.4k
Thetford 15.8k
Brandon 13.6k
Wymondham 9.0k
Attleborough 5.2k
Manea 3.4k
Whittlesea 1.8k

One other interesting feature of the data is the flows to/from the East Coast via Norwich:

Great Yarmouth 6.2k
Lowestoft 2.3k
Cromer 2.1k
Sheringham 1.9k

I suspect that these are quite seasonal.



This is a bit of an exaggeration, but not much!

Great Yarmouth had direct Summer Saturday services in the 70s and 80s. The Newcastle in particular was a load 14. For some reason Yarmouth was a popular destination for many NE generations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2025 ==

Off shore oil industry accounted for many NE/Scottish journeys.

 

[Zomboid]

Here it is, from Rail Data, all the one way flows >1k

Cambridge to/from Birmingham line, west of Peterborough

Birmingham 15.3k
Leicester 10.7k
Stamford 10.0k
M Mowbray 5.3k
Oakham 4.8k
Nuneaton 1.6k

Total 47.7k

Cambridge to from ECML

Edinburgh 12.4k
York 11.2k
Leeds 10.3k
Newcastle 6.4k
Durham 3.3k
Lincoln 2.8k
Doncaster 2.2k
Grantham 1.4k
Darlington 1.3k
Newark 1.2k
Wakefield 1.1k

Total 53.6k

While I was looking, here are some of the relevant shorter distance flows to/from Cambridge:

Stansted Airport 200.9k
Peterborough 79.5k
Norwich 76.4k
March 33.4k
Thetford 15.8k
Brandon 13.6k
Wymondham 9.0k
Attleborough 5.2k
Manea 3.4k
Whittlesea 1.8k

One other interesting feature of the data is the flows to/from the East Coast via Norwich:

Great Yarmouth 6.2k
Lowestoft 2.3k
Cromer 2.1k
Sheringham 1.9k

I suspect that these are quite seasonal.



This is a bit of an exaggeration, but not much!

How about numbers using the non-direct comparable service from Ely/ Peterborough to Nottingham, Sheffield, Manchester & Liverpool?

 

[Magdalia]

How about numbers using the non-direct comparable service from Ely/ Peterborough to Nottingham, Sheffield, Manchester & Liverpool?

The data for these flows are much more difficult to interpret, for various reasons.

For a start, lots of Cambridge passengers will go by road then join at Ely, or alight at Ely for a pick up, eliminating the need to change trains. I know someone who had a child at Nottingham University and they always took them to or from Ely in the car.

For those that do travel through, it is much less certain what route they take and where they change trains. Another example is someone I know who makes occasional journeys to/from Liverpool. For them it is a choice of two unpleasant journeys: change at Ely or Peterborough and spend hours in a class 158 or change at Birmingham, and have to deal with New Street!

For Cambridge-Manchester/Liverpool there is also the option of going via London.

The other side of this coin is the flows Norwich-Leicester/Birmingham, which also require a change of trains at Ely or Peterborough. Historically this was one of the most important routes in and out of East Anglia that avoided London, yet it hasn't had through trains for decades. People who bang on about the sanctity of the current long distance routes need to remember that.

 

[Zomboid]

For a start, lots of Cambridge passengers will go by road then join at Ely, or alight at Ely for a pick up, eliminating the need to change trains. I know someone who had a child at Nottingham University and they always took them to or from Ely in the car

Whilst anecdotal, does that kind of thing not make the case for direct trains?

I don't know if there's anything special about Leicester that would mean it has significantly greater or less demand for travel to/from Cambridge than Nottingham, but I'd bet the Cambridge to Nottingham passenger numbers are dwarfed by those to Leicester.

 

[Magdalia]

Whilst anecdotal, does that kind of thing not make the case for direct trains?

I don't know if there's anything special about Leicester that would mean it has significantly greater or less demand for travel to/from Cambridge than Nottingham, but I'd bet the Cambridge to Nottingham passenger numbers are dwarfed by those to Leicester.

You are wrong, Cambridge-Nottingham is 11.3k, ahead of Cambridge-Leicester at 10.7k, even with the penalty of having to change trains. Note that Cambridge-Leicester is also behind Edinburgh and York.

For comparing overall size of flows, with no assumptions about routes, Cambridge-Sheffield is 8.5k, Cambridge-Manchester is 8.8k for Picc and 2.8k for Vic, while Cambridge-Liverpool is only 1.9k.

My anecdote doesn't make the case for direct trains, no anecdote can do that. The evidence from the data for Cambridge is that the value of direct trains for long distance journeys is greatly exaggerated. Cambridge has similar numbers of long distance passengers to/from a multitude of destinations, a few with direct trains but most others requiring a change, many at Peterborough. There is no prospect of providing direct trains for all flows of that size. A robust and reliable Peterborough-Cambridge-Stansted service, preferably 2tph, and primarily for the much larger numbers of shorter distance passengers, would also be much more beneficial for the majority of long distance passengers, who are already changing trains.

Getting back to the topic of Norwich-Ely-Cambridge, more capacity is more important than more frequency, because a smaller proportion of passengers are on journeys where they are changing trains. Ideally that would be with longer trains, if Stansted Airport could be resolved. With regard to frequency, the experience on the Kings Lynn line is instructive. Since covid the Kings Lynn line has had longer trains with 1tph off peak and 2tph peak; it works well there and I think it would work for Cambridge-Norwich too.

The quick win is to find Greater Anglia some paths to/from Norwich that make use of the class 755 that currently sits idle at Cambridge during the peaks, because they don't have peak time paths to Stansted. In the morning the 1014 Cambridge-Norwich is off the previous evening's 2112 Norwich-Cambridge; in the evening the 1627 Norwich-Cambridge does nothing until 2120 Cambridge-Norwich. It is bonkers that these sit idle at Cambridge through the Cambridge commuting peaks.

 

[Zomboid]

You are wrong, Cambridge-Nottingham is 11.3k, ahead of Cambridge-Leicester at 10.7k, even with the penalty of having to change trains. Note that Cambridge-Leicester is also behind Edinburgh and York.

Fair enough, I'm surprised but if those are the facts then so be it.

 

[RailWonderer]

Deleted.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What would be great if the line was diverted straight through the airport, instead of a spur being built, and a London to Norwich via Stansted and Cambridge service could be introduced

 

[saismee]

What would be great if the line was diverted straight through the airport, instead of a spur being built, and a London to Norwich via Stansted and Cambridge service could be introduced

I was going to say something along the lines of this (though as a turnaround at Stansted Airport), but it wouldn't be able to stop anywhere between Cambridge and Norwich. If anything it'd harm the current service by taking paths through Trowse and Ely North.

 

[Magdalia]

What would be great if the line was diverted straight through the airport, instead of a spur being built, and a London to Norwich via Stansted and Cambridge service could be introduced

No it would not be great.

It would be a huge disadvantage for the London-Stansted service with little benefit for Stansted-Cambridge-Norwich, and a very inefficient use of rolling stock.

Fair enough, I'm surprised but if those are the facts then so be it.

I was surprised too, but it is one of the benefits of actually being able to see the data.

I have only been able to do that through this forum and the good people who get the detailed data onto the internet. Thanks to them.

Being able to see the data has definitely changed my perception of the order of priorities.

 

[Zomboid]

If we're getting the crayons out, then I'd suggest connecting Stansted through to Braintree to allow access from the east.

There are already direct services from London, Cambridge and Norwich, but there's no sensible rail route from Chelmsford or Colchester. It might be preferable to go via Witham if starting at Ipswich, too.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

There is apparently a campaign group slowly grinding away on the idea of re-opening the line through Haverhill and also accommodating Colchester-Cambridge Connectivity that way. I don't think EWR's planned remodelling of Shepreth Branch Junction accommodates this however, but the ideas are out there and talked about at the councillor level.
However at the same time, someone once told me that Stansted Station is built with passive provision for becoming a through station at least in some vague way. Shame they gave it a silly single track tunnel

 

[Brubulus]

If we're getting the crayons out, then I'd suggest connecting Stansted through to Braintree to allow access from the east.

There are already direct services from London, Cambridge and Norwich, but there's no sensible rail route from Chelmsford or Colchester. It might be preferable to go via Witham if starting at Ipswich, too.

Really, it would have been better if the Cambridge-Colchester line had never closed, the decision to close it was quite marginal with the substantial development at Haverhill and it would have become very useful, but that's unrelated from Stansted.

Going back to Stansted, a line to Braintree would be helpful, especially with the development in Great Dunmow, though I am not sure if it would have a good enough business case to justify it's existence.

 

[Zomboid]

Going back to Stansted, a line to Braintree would be helpful, especially with the development in Great Dunmow, though I am not sure if it would have a good enough business case to justify it's existence.

It's probably a line that would be quite useful and well patronised if it were still there, but putting it back is another matter entirely.