Arriva (Beds, Bucks, Herts)

[Zakaria Fadel]

The Milton Keynes timetable changes are very interesting with the X2 serving the entirety of Newton Leys and the X3 serving St. Helena Avenue thus displacing the 5 from the estate.

However, a frequency increase on the LOOP would be better to compensate for the loss of the 4A in Shenley Church End. More Optare Solos/Wright StreetLite WFs would come in handy I guess if these plans go into fruition…

 

[espicer]

No worries at all; it's equally useful for us to receive immediate feedback, helping us clarify or better promote our offering to our wider customer base.

Catching a 23 towards Luton from Sundon Park at XX:58 will enable a connection for a Dunstable-bound 4 at YY:16 past each hour, with a 12 minute wait at Leagrave. Returning journeys from Dunstable arrive at YY:06 at Leagrave, to connect to a northbound 23 at XX:25.

So, it's not much of a wait, then. It's not too bad, but it won't be ideal in winter!

Also, I looked at the network map, and the 78 and 40 are still on there, yet they've been withdrawn for over a year.

 

[Edvid]

There will be a trio of route 724 variations not 2 months apart; timetable change on 1 June, Maple Cross rerouteing on 29 June, and transferal of Sunday shorts (Watford-Heathrow) to route 725 on 27 July.

The 725 will also be extended (Mon-Sat) from Rickmansworth to Heathrow thereafter.

Intalink July 2025 changes

 

[Simon75]

There will be a trio of route 724 variations not 2 months apart; timetable change on 1 June, Maple Cross rerouteing on 29 June, and transferal of Sunday shorts (Watford-Heathrow) to route 725 on 27 July.

The 725 will also be extended (Mon-Sat) from Rickmansworth to Heathrow thereafter.

Intalink July 2025 changes

Wonder if the 725 be branded as a Greenline service?

 

[Edvid]

Wonder if the 725 be branded as a Greenline service?

Doubt it, seeing as the Greenline brand is specific to Arriva's remaining London coach services (i.e. 755/757) these days. If Heathrow is paying for the extension their Flightline brand may cover the 724/725 instead.

 

[SteveHFC]

The new Evora's are starting to enter service at Luton. I followed 3201 (BU25YZT) this morning in Lewsey Farm when it was on a Z going towards Dunstable. Looking at bustimes it has been out in service since 28th May. 3206, 3208 and 3209 have all been in service since 22nd May.

 

[JasonL]

The new Evora's are starting to enter service at Luton. I followed 3201 (BU25YZT) this morning in Lewsey Farm when it was on a Z going towards Dunstable. Looking at bustimes it has been out in service since 28th May. 3206, 3208 and 3209 have all been in service since 22nd May.

Not long left for the E200MMCs and the Evoras that are due to go to Merseyside then.

 

[aron2smith]

Wonder if the 725 be branded as a Greenline service?

Really it should as the 724 is still Greenline. And if there was any real forward thinking, counties and transport authorities would seriously explore bringing back Greenline as a full network of express routes that connect to TFL's Superloop network. The original Greenline routes filled in many gaps left by the rail network and many of the journeys they offered in the fringe/ cross-boundary areas simply aren't possible today. Also good that Stevenage is getting a direct bus to Heathrow (makes much more sense than the existing 725), something from Cheshunt and Waltham Abbey/ Epping would be helpful. Going east to west around here is painful and so limited!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Really it should as the 724 is still Greenline.

Is it? In what way?

 

[aron2smith]

Is it? In what way?

They are limited stop services. Why not promote that with its own branding? Greenline was perfect for that. As I say it should be brought back and greatly expanded on.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They are limited stop services. Why not promote that with its own branding? Greenline was perfect for that. As I say it should be brought back and greatly expanded on.

That wasn't what I was querying. You said...

the 724 is still Greenline.

My query was that it's not Green Line these days. There's no branding IIRC anywhere since the Pulsars were replaced.

It's also barely limited stop nowadays. Aside from the blast from Harlow to Ware, and Hertford to WGC, there's not much that feels very quick. 3.5 to 4 hours end to end

 

[aron2smith]

My query was that it's not Green Line these days. There's no branding IIRC anywhere since the Pulsars were replaced.

It's also barely limited stop nowadays. Aside from the blast from Harlow to Ware, and Hertford to WGC, there's not much that feels very quick. 3.5 to 4 hours end to end

It is limited stop, not express - just like Superloop. The 724 (or 725) clearly isn't an ordinary route. Why don't Arriva promote that? It just seems like everything they do, they just don't care. Also I took it from Harlow to Hatfield once, yeah it doesn't feel fast but not surprising when it does what feels like a loop around Welwyn so it can serve the town centre as well as the hospital. A route like the 724 clearly needs a more direct route and proper priority given its the only proper East to West public transport connection Herts has. The changes Arriva have for the 724 at the end of June clearly go against the massive potential of a route like it and a shadow of what it was under London Transport. A missed opportunity.

 

[greenline712]

It is limited stop, not express - just like Superloop. The 724 (or 725) clearly isn't an ordinary route. Why don't Arriva promote that? It just seems like everything they do, they just don't care. Also I took it from Harlow to Hatfield once, yeah it doesn't feel fast but not surprising when it does what feels like a loop around Welwyn so it can serve the town centre as well as the hospital. A route like the 724 clearly needs a more direct route and proper priority given its the only proper East to West public transport connection Herts has. The changes Arriva have for the 724 at the end of June clearly go against the massive potential of a route like it and a shadow of what it was under London Transport. A missed opportunity.

Route 725 is not Green Line . . . it is a wholly funded contract issued by Hertfordshire County Council. Arriva may run that contract at the moment, but if the contract were to move to another operator, then the branding might have to cease, which would simply cause more confusion.

It's also worth noting that Route 724 is now nothing more than a (slightly) limited stop bus route . . . a true Green Line service would have to use proper coaches, which 724 hasn't for 20 years or more . . . before it was the Pulsars, it was a bunch of 2005 Citaros . . .still with bus seating, but at least in Green Line colours.

The brand name Green Line is owned by Arriva, as a successor company to London Country Bus Services Ltd. If you recall, Reading Transport tried to use the brand for their services from London to Bracknell (as a successor to FirstBus' 701 service from London to Windsor), and had to cease doing so. And before you ask, First had the right to use the Green Line brand as one of the direct successor companies to LCBS in that area. And just to conclude this point, it's Green Line, not Greenline!!

As far as East-West (and North-South) links in Hertfordshire are concerned . . . in fact the County is pretty well served. Look at a population map, and Hemel Hempstead -St Albans -Welwyn Gdn City -Hertford is where the people live, and where buses have the best chance of doing well. Watford -Potters Bar -Waltham Cross . . . few chimneys (and expensive ones at that!), apart from Borehamwood, and that town looks towards London (and always has). Harpenden -Wheathampstead -WGC . . . empty fields.

 

[aron2smith]

As far as East-West (and North-South) links in Hertfordshire are concerned . . . in fact the County is pretty well served. Look at a population map, and Hemel Hempstead -St Albans -Welwyn Gdn City -Hertford is where the people live, and where buses have the best chance of doing well. Watford -Potters Bar -Waltham Cross . . . few chimneys (and expensive ones at that!), apart from Borehamwood, and that town looks towards London (and always has). Harpenden -Wheathampstead -WGC . . . empty fields.

I live here but close to London, the Herts side is appalling for buses and I have no confidence in the service and they all end too early compared to the trains. Until this year, the 242 was basically unusable if you wanted to go west to Potters Bar, the current timetable is the minimum. Now at least it can connect with the 84 or 398 to go west. Sure Hertford has good east to west links with Welwyn, Hatfield with St Albans, Stevenage with Luton, Hemel with St Albans etc. But that is not the case with places in the Borough of Broxbourne or Epping Forest to the rest of the area, everything either is once an hour or runs at awkward frequencies which makes connections very difficult and all in an area where cross-boundary journeys are really important but not being met. I'd say my area looks towards London too, the trains make it so but the buses let the area down big time.

Seeing Arriva cut the frequencies of multiple routes across Herts and Harlow that are supposed to be every 20 minutes to now every 30. They better not even think of it with the 251, barely turns up on time as it is! This is not how you grow a passenger base!

 

[greenline712]

You miss my point ... bus routes need people to survive. If there are no people, then no fabulous timetable with huge potential journey opportunities will work.

242 has lingered on for many years, despite efforts by Metroline between 2011 and 2016 to improve the route .... better frequency, evening buses .... all to no avail.
398 Potters Bar - Borehamwood similarly .... no chimneys, no reason for people to travel between these two towns ... multiple efforts over 20-odd years, but nothing has lasted.

There's a reason why such links have never existed, and nothing has altered recently to make any difference.

 

[aron2smith]

You miss my point ... bus routes need people to survive. If there are no people, then no fabulous timetable with huge potential journey opportunities will work.

242 has lingered on for many years, despite efforts by Metroline between 2011 and 2016 to improve the route .... better frequency, evening buses .... all to no avail.
398 Potters Bar - Borehamwood similarly .... no chimneys, no reason for people to travel between these two towns ... multiple efforts over 20-odd years, but nothing has lasted.

There's a reason why such links have never existed, and nothing has altered recently to make any difference.

If the shorter link isn't viable, make it longer until it is publicly useful. Not being funny but if far less built up areas in Wales (Trawscymru), Scotland (Citylink), Yorkshire (Coastliner, 36 to Ripon), Norfolk (Lynx/ Excel) etc can get decent regional links as a part of a wider network then why can't us in the fringes of and around London?, by far the biggest city region! Buses need long term stable funding and planning to survive as well as inspire confidence in people to use them. I get that from TFL but not Hertfordshire or Essex, where everything is a fragmented mess, nothing co-ordinated, not that a transport network should be affected by county lines. If you follow Bus and Train User's blog, you can clearly see him showing time and time again, Arriva making decisions that make it harder to use the bus than it should be, either by cutting the service or unreadable timetables, lack of publicity, confusing tickets, it goes on and on.

Why is the 724 going to serve some random housing estate soon, when that estate should be getting its own frequent route to town? A highly questionable decision with no public accountability or say from the people who have to use it. Lack of chimneys hasn't stopped other regions at all, look at Lynx and Sanders Coaches as examples of that.

 

[greenline712]

If the shorter link isn't viable, make it longer until it is publicly useful. Not being funny but if far less built up areas in Wales (Trawscymru), Scotland (Citylink), Yorkshire (Coastliner, 36 to Ripon), Norfolk (Lynx/ Excel) etc can get decent regional links as a part of a wider network then why can't us in the fringes of and around London?, by far the biggest city region! Buses need long term stable funding and planning to survive as well as inspire confidence in people to use them. I get that from TFL but not Hertfordshire or Essex, where everything is a fragmented mess, nothing co-ordinated, not that a transport network should be affected by county lines. If you follow Bus and Train User's blog, you can clearly see him showing time and time again, Arriva making decisions that make it harder to use the bus than it should be, either by cutting the service or unreadable timetables, lack of publicity, confusing tickets, it goes on and on.

Why is the 724 going to serve some random housing estate soon, when that estate should be getting its own frequent route to town? A highly questionable decision with no public accountability or say from the people who have to use it. Lack of chimneys hasn't stopped other regions at all, look at Lynx and Sanders Coaches as examples of that.

I'm sure that Intalink will smile at being described as a "fragmented mess" . . . as did I !! You are cherry-picking areas with different inter-urban services to compare with an area which has never had inter-urban links . . . and for a reason.

Actually . . . I'm done with this topic . . . we're never going to even get close to agreeing, are we? Seemingly, 50 years of planning and operating bus and coach services doesn't count any more. Och well . . .

 

[aron2smith]

I'm sure that Intalink will smile at being described as a "fragmented mess" . . . as did I !! You are cherry-picking areas with different inter-urban services to compare with an area which has never had inter-urban links . . . and for a reason.

Actually . . . I'm done with this topic . . . we're never going to even get close to agreeing, are we? Seemingly, 50 years of planning and operating bus and coach services doesn't count any more. Och well . . .

You can't blame me for being really dissatisfied with the local bus service (which so happen to be dominated by Arriva) when I grew up being used to the far superior TFL routes. And since then been to places all over the country where the buses may not be as frequent as London's but are at least reliable and importantly interchange directly with the train. It really bothers me that Cheshunt and Waltham Abbey lost their London buses. It really bothers me that Cheshunt Station has not even one bus when its a really busy place.

Also I really like Intalink actually, I wish they would run the buses themselves and get way more funding, the information and maps on there are excellent. All I know is standing in St Peter's Street in St Albans and looking at all the buses being run by different companies with different priorities selling different tickets gives me a headache! It all needs one identity and to become one network again, nothing against your experience. Just letting private companies run loose with something so important as buses and only running what is profitable has been a disaster and that is what must end.

 

[markymark2000]

You can't blame me for being really dissatisfied with the local bus service (which so happen to be dominated by Arriva) when I grew up being used to the far superior TFL routes.

London is in a right state. It's one of many things in this world that looks all sunshines and rainbows to the public, but anyone who has ever had to properly deal with TFL or delves into how they actually work, it's a shambles. For many reasons though which I won't go into on this thread.

And since then been to places all over the country where the buses may not be as frequent as London's but are at least reliable and importantly interchange directly with the train. It really bothers me that Cheshunt and Waltham Abbey lost their London buses. It really bothers me that Cheshunt Station has not even one bus when its a really busy place.

As for a bus to serve Cheshunt Station, The bus can't turn around on Windmill Lane so it would mean using another one of the side roads. Roundmoor Road is a bit too tight with the parked cars. Delamere Road/Cadmore Lane has a lot of parking on the main carriageway which would mean buses weaving in and out of parked cars all of the time which delays the bus (and any roads similar to this operators are trying to avoid because they know it just causes issues), then you are left with Russells Lane which has the width restriction and even if you got that changed, there is plenty of people parking on the carriageway. That is before you look at the fact that each time the crossing closes, traffic will queue up on Windmill Lane and so potentially cause further delays to buses. I'm not entirely sure how you want a bus to serve Cheshunt Station when there isn't really a way for buses to serve there easily.

Purely to ask some bus bods like Greenline, if you look at the situation at Cheshunt station, are you of a similar mindset that even if Arriva wanted to serve it, there is no viable way to serve it without changes to parking or some other larger scale project to enable buses to turn around?

Also I really like Intalink actually, I wish they would run the buses themselves and get way more funding, the information and maps on there are excellent. All I know is standing in St Peter's Street in St Albans and looking at all the buses being run by different companies with different priorities selling different tickets gives me a headache! It all needs one identity and to become one network again, nothing against your experience. Just letting private companies run loose with something so important as buses and only running what is profitable has been a disaster and that is what must end.

Intalink are one of the better transport authorities that exist, but they still aren't great either. Wasting BSIP funds on 600,000 different 'saver cards' and introducing stupidly complex fare structures which discourages anyone travelling cross border and financially penalises people for living in the wrong postcode along a bus route. Bus fares shouldn't be done like that!
And that's before you look at the fact they wasted silly amounts of money on new routes which were set up to be primarily abstractive to Arriva. In my strong opinion, no public authority should be wasting money just to screw over the incumbent. They don't have the best track record with making simple networks or funding logical services. Largescale DRT too rather than pushing scheduled services. Seemingly refusing or at least very reluctant to start using the DFTs Disruption Data Service which then sends out alerts to journey planners about services (ie road works).
Throw all that together.... Intalink isn't as good as you may think. Information wise on their own website though, they are probably one of the best.

 

[greenline712]

To answer @markymark2000 directly about Cheshunt station . . . no! Around the mid 2010s, there was a small network of commuter / shopper services in the Cheshunt / Cuffley area, and one of these served Cheshunt Station. It no longer runs; it may have been a Covid casualty, although I "think" it died before then. All that is left of this little network is the C1 route:

https://passenger-line-assets.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/intalink/service/205c2a45-6f28-4bc7-a877-db8d885ef2ff-timetable-20220306-c411d0b3.pdf

From personal experience of driving RRBs in the area 20 years ago . . . anything larger than an E200 would struggle . . . a small bus is able to turn at the far end of Cheshunt station car park, but only if parking is restricted. This was obviously when the railway was closed, ergo the level crossing was also closed. It would be necessary to build in an allowance of 5 minutes or so to any timetable to allow for traffic delays.

As far as Intalink is concerned . . . Intalink is a partnership between the County Council and bus / train operators, intended to assist in integration between modes and publicity of information. Intalink is NOT a tendering authority and does not (in general) control specific fares. Fares on its contracted routes will usually mimic any commercial operations, so (for example) 725 and 908 south of Stevenage will take Arriva's fares as the base.

The Herts CC approach with BSIP monies has been to enhance services on specific corridors where they perceive that there is unsatisfied demand . . . again, south of Stevenage towards Welwyn GC is one such corridor . . . and from limited observations, passenger numbers do seem to have responded. Whether this is sufficient to stand after BSIP monies run out is yet to be determined. Route 907 from Stevenage towards the Lea Valley has, again, generated new passengers with the use of BSIP money. I'd certainly commend the Herts CC (BSIP) approach over introducing rural routes or evening routes that simply carry next to nothing.

DRT . . . well, that's not using BSIP monies, but specific DfT money . . .if there's funding available, then why not use it? Herts CC were very late to the DRT party, and like most of them, they'll die away as funding is removed . . . maybe we simply have to go round this loop to get to the other end??

I'm certainly not saying that Herts CC or Intalink are perfect . . . their approach to updating roadside timetables has recently been poor . . . but when compared with (say) Dorset CC, or even Essex CC over the last 10 years, they are very much better.

Oh heck . . . I said I'd had enough . . . and here I've gone again!! It's that 50 years of experience again, including 15 years working with Intalink . . . !!

 

[aron2smith]

London is in a right state. It's one of many things in this world that looks all sunshines and rainbows to the public, but anyone who has ever had to properly deal with TFL or delves into how they actually work, it's a shambles. For many reasons though which I won't go into on this thread.

All I know is I could leave my house at any time of day and within a 5 minute a bus nearly always turned up within a couple minutes any time of day, 7 days a week. Very occasionally a bus terminated early but much better than letting the bus bunch up and become 30 minutes late like seems to happen in Hertfordshire! It feels like I have to win the lottery for it to be reliable out here!

As for a bus to serve Cheshunt Station, The bus can't turn around on Windmill Lane so it would mean using another one of the side roads. Roundmoor Road is a bit too tight with the parked cars. Delamere Road/Cadmore Lane has a lot of parking on the main carriageway which would mean buses weaving in and out of parked cars all of the time which delays the bus (and any roads similar to this operators are trying to avoid because they know it just causes issues), then you are left with Russells Lane which has the width restriction and even if you got that changed, there is plenty of people parking on the carriageway. That is before you look at the fact that each time the crossing closes, traffic will queue up on Windmill Lane and so potentially cause further delays to buses. I'm not entirely sure how you want a bus to serve Cheshunt Station when there isn't really a way for buses to serve there easily.

Purely to ask some bus bods like Greenline, if you look at the situation at Cheshunt station, are you of a similar mindset that even if Arriva wanted to serve it, there is no viable way to serve it without changes to parking or some other larger scale project to enable buses to turn around?

I get it's awkward there but why should that inconvenience me as someone who doesn't want to learn to drive? How about remove some parking so it can easily turn around? I'd settle for DRT to be honest, just something, anything! Even if the bus is on time, the frequencies of the existing bus routes doesn't really allow for the walk from Old Pond to the Station to make it to the train I want, I somehow always have to wait 20 minutes for the train, may as well have just walked the 1.5 miles instead! Also TFL manage to turn around at Cheshunt station when Overground has maintenance. I think this whole predicament screams why buses need to be in public ownership again, private operators like Arriva have no say in the roads they use, so no joined up thinking can occur. Apparently the 251 was re-routed in Waltham Abbey due to parking issues. A municipal or franchised operation would marry road and bus.

I think what makes it so much worse is the Station area was supposed to have major regeneration including much needed new homes and services as well as a bus link on a new road built off of Windmill Lane to Delamere Road, it was partially built then the developers went bust and the council stupidly left it. The cranes have stood silent for 2 years now! Anyway, I think Cheshunt needs a 4th route that is a proper town service serving Flamstead End, Brookfield and the Station, so everything else can focus on connecting us to neighbouring towns. But it needs to remain frequent even at night! All I can say is when the new towns get built, learn from Cheshunt, that is not how to do it! Even Harlow is better designed than here!

Intalink are one of the better transport authorities that exist, but they still aren't great either. Wasting BSIP funds on 600,000 different 'saver cards' and introducing stupidly complex fare structures which discourages anyone travelling cross border and financially penalises people for living in the wrong postcode along a bus route. Bus fares shouldn't be done like that!
And that's before you look at the fact they wasted silly amounts of money on new routes which were set up to be primarily abstractive to Arriva. In my strong opinion, no public authority should be wasting money just to screw over the incumbent. They don't have the best track record with making simple networks or funding logical services. Largescale DRT too rather than pushing scheduled services. Seemingly refusing or at least very reluctant to start using the DFTs Disruption Data Service which then sends out alerts to journey planners about services (ie road works).
Throw all that together.... Intalink isn't as good as you may think. Information wise on their own website though, they are probably one of the best.

Yeah I agree here, it seems good value once you understand it but trying to explain to someone unfamiliar is very difficult and in the end I just told them to take the train as it's way faster, simpler and actually cheaper for their journey! WX to Ware College. Intalink needs to do automatic capping now. And you've just summed up my entire issue, I'm near the border of 2 neighbouring counties and because of the bus cuts, getting from here to there, it feels like scaling the Berlin Wall. Waltham Cross itself is not a great place to change buses as it's too small for the number of buses. The issues with cross-boundary buses here is enough for me to want the county border to change. I'd vote to become a London borough because of the bus issues alone. At the very least, Waltham Abbey and Harlow should be in Herts.

Also how are the new routes extractive to Arriva when most of them are actually run by Arriva? I think the 907 is the only new BSIP route not operated by Arriva (some early journeys are run by them). As a passenger, I think the changes Herts have done shows the de-regulated model can't last and I'd really welcome the end of that!

 

[Dwarfer1979]

All I know is I could leave my house at any time of day and within a 5 minute a bus nearly always turned up within a couple minutes any time of day, 7 days a week. Very occasionally a bus terminated early but much better than letting the bus bunch up and become 30 minutes late like seems to happen in Hertfordshire! It feels like I have to win the lottery for it to be reliable out here!

I think London has got progressively worse over the years, my Dad grew up in London and is still a regular visitor and in the last few years I think it is about 10% of trips on London bus trips have resulted in a bus terminating early, an experience that is very rare in the provinces.

I get it's awkward there but why should that inconvenience me as someone who doesn't want to learn to drive? How about remove some parking so it can easily turn around? I'd settle for DRT to be honest, just something, anything! Even if the bus is on time, the frequencies of the existing bus routes doesn't really allow for the walk from Old Pond to the Station to make it to the train I want, I somehow always have to wait 20 minutes for the train, may as well have just walked the 1.5 miles instead! Also TFL manage to turn around at Cheshunt station when Overground has maintenance.

As Greenline said it can just about be done when the railway is closed for rail replacement but if it is open then there are major access issues. My employers used to run tghe services that served the station and small buses were normally allocated due to access issues. We would all like public transport to be more prioritised I'm sure but that is not where we are and the railways are unlikely to sacrifice the income from car parking to make more room for buses to turn. It is also something like a 7-min diversion to get to/from the station which brings all sorts of extra scheduling and consequent cost issues raised

I think this whole predicament screams why buses need to be in public ownership again, private operators like Arriva have no say in the roads they use, so no joined up thinking can occur. Apparently the 251 was re-routed in Waltham Abbey due to parking issues. A municipal or franchised operation would marry road and bus.

If you believe that I have some magic beans to sell, changing who owns or manages the bus services hasn't changed how well roads are managed anywhere in the UK really, that is a political failing and even London struggles to solve that (the local councils still control most roads so you have had many occasions where changes made to roads by the council badly impacted the buses). The people managing roads, planning and the like are not the people who manage public transport at any authority, don't consider public transport at any point and rarely talk to each other. The fear of politicians of being accused of starting a "war on motorists", basic poor planning from local government and all the other failings mean the UK is terrible at this sort of thing, bus ownership or control is irrelevant to it.

Arriva are terrible, that is acknowledged, but that is seperate from the question of structure, there is just as good a chance of having a terrible council but then you have the added problem that there are much greater demands on where money is spent to distract.

Also how are the new routes extractive to Arriva when most of them are actually run by Arriva? I think the 907 is the only new BSIP route not operated by Arriva (some early journeys are run by them). As a passenger, I think the changes Herts have done shows the de-regulated model can't last and I'd really welcome the end of that!

The council don't want to just transfer passengers from a commercial route run by Arriva to a tendered route run by Arriva (or anyone else), which would undermine the commercial element and consequently result in two tendered services, they want to build on the market to turn the tendered new service commercial so you end up with two commercial services. It may not create a new commercial service but the worst thing would be to turn a currently commercial service to tendered instead.

 

[aron2smith]

I think London has got progressively worse over the years, my Dad grew up in London and is still a regular visitor and in the last few years I think it is about 10% of trips on London bus trips have resulted in a bus terminating early, an experience that is very rare in the provinces.

I don't think terminating early is that much of the problem as the frequency and routes in London plus the hopper fare and capping make up for it. On the other hand it is a big problem when one 251 bus is 20 minutes late and the next departure is right behind, it happens a lot here! Also most regional routes out here are hourly, they can't terminate early even if it's the better thing to do. I'd take the TFL system any day over potentially waiting 40 minutes for a bus! My main issue with TFL is it's way too slow, that needs real addressing!

The people managing roads, planning and the like are not the people who manage public transport at any authority, don't consider public transport at any point and rarely talk to each other. The fear of politicians of being accused of starting a "war on motorists", basic poor planning from local government and all the other failings mean the UK is terrible at this sort of thing, bus ownership or control is irrelevant to it.

And this right here is what must change, we desperately need joined up thinking both within local councils, across counties, between rail and bus services and even transport, housing, public services and infrastructure. Keeping them private, keeps things fragmented. I'd say ownership is really important actually. Right now, Cheshunt is a car-centric mess but it's terrible for driving which means it's also terrible for walking, cycling and buses too. I envy the people who live close to the railway. For those of us further away, we really need to see the alternatives to the car being funded properly and that includes socially necessary but unprofitable late evening bus services. I can easily go on a night out in London but not in my own area, which is frustrating.

Arriva are terrible, that is acknowledged, but that is seperate from the question of structure, there is just as good a chance of having a terrible council but then you have the added problem that there are much greater demands on where money is spent to distract.

The council don't want to just transfer passengers from a commercial route run by Arriva to a tendered route run by Arriva (or anyone else), which would undermine the commercial element and consequently result in two tendered services, they want to build on the market to turn the tendered new service commercial so you end up with two commercial services. It may not create a new commercial service but the worst thing would be to turn a currently commercial service to tendered instead.

At least a council can be voted out if they are rubbish, passengers have no say whatsoever in Arriva's decisions. Not even a consultation, let alone a way of suggesting what us passengers want from our local bus network. Also agree on that last part, but I'm very keen on buses focusing on providing a public service, profit shouldn't be the priority at all. I think Herts could achieve a lot more with BSIP if it was all just run in house.

 

[markymark2000]

As far as Intalink is concerned . . . Intalink is a partnership between the County Council and bus / train operators, intended to assist in integration between modes and publicity of information. Intalink is NOT a tendering authority and does not (in general) control specific fares.

I will amend my previous comments then but Intalink/HertsCC is largely the same. Same staff really and so any criticism of Intalink is a criticism covering both Intalink/HertsCC.

The Herts CC approach with BSIP monies has been to enhance services on specific corridors where they perceive that there is unsatisfied demand . . . again, south of Stevenage towards Welwyn GC is one such corridor . . . and from limited observations, passenger numbers do seem to have responded. Whether this is sufficient to stand after BSIP monies run out is yet to be determined. Route 907 from Stevenage towards the Lea Valley has, again, generated new passengers with the use of BSIP money. I'd certainly commend the Herts CC (BSIP) approach over introducing rural routes or evening routes that simply carry next to nothing.

907 has more unique things about it which make it slightly better. Some of the other routes, we will have to agree to disagree on how other BSIP and DRT funds are spent else we could both be here all day and I take note of your previous comments on not wanting to go too far.

Oh heck . . . I said I'd had enough . . . and here I've gone again!! It's that 50 years of experience again, including 15 years working with Intalink . . . !!

Your comments have been really helpful so thank you for that. It is appreciated.

A municipal or franchised operation would marry road and bus.

Incorrect. Only the other month Nottingham City Transport stopped serving some bus stops due to parking issues at said bus stop. Cardiff Bus 27 reroutes in Cardiff City Centre because of taxis parking and blocking Cardiff Bus Station exit, and Newport Bus on their 30 start the last trip of the night from Cardiff from outside the bus station, again due to parking issues blocking buses leaving the bus station. Bus operators have been trying to get the issue resolved, staff in the council, and councillor with the transport portfolio simply don't care.

You are very much mistaken if you believe public ownership of buses would resolve such issues.

Spoiler: Proof for Nottingham City Transport

Service Change from 30th March 2025

Summary of service changes from Sunday 30th March 2025.

www.nctx.co.uk

Orange 35/B​

The Stagsden Crescent named stop on Cockington Road, used by buses towards Bulwell, is withdrawn because of parked cars preventing safe access to the stop.

 

[RELL6L]

Route 725 is not Green Line . . . it is a wholly funded contract issued by Hertfordshire County Council. Arriva may run that contract at the moment, but if the contract were to move to another operator, then the branding might have to cease, which would simply cause more confusion.

It's also worth noting that Route 724 is now nothing more than a (slightly) limited stop bus route . . . a true Green Line service would have to use proper coaches, which 724 hasn't for 20 years or more . . . before it was the Pulsars, it was a bunch of 2005 Citaros . . .still with bus seating, but at least in Green Line colours.

The brand name Green Line is owned by Arriva, as a successor company to London Country Bus Services Ltd. If you recall, Reading Transport tried to use the brand for their services from London to Bracknell (as a successor to FirstBus' 701 service from London to Windsor), and had to cease doing so. And before you ask, First had the right to use the Green Line brand as one of the direct successor companies to LCBS in that area. And just to conclude this point, it's Green Line, not Greenline!!

As far as East-West (and North-South) links in Hertfordshire are concerned . . . in fact the County is pretty well served. Look at a population map, and Hemel Hempstead -St Albans -Welwyn Gdn City -Hertford is where the people live, and where buses have the best chance of doing well. Watford -Potters Bar -Waltham Cross . . . few chimneys (and expensive ones at that!), apart from Borehamwood, and that town looks towards London (and always has). Harpenden -Wheathampstead -WGC . . . empty fields.

The trouble with the 724 is that it is so slow heading east-west across Hertfordshire, largely because it serves Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City. It takes a ludicrous hour and a quarter from St Albans to Hertford while in a car it takes only half an hour. If the 725 is to be extended to Heathrow - giving a half hourly service between Heathrow and Watford via Uxbridge - then this covers Welwyn Garden City (as this route is the quickest between St Albans and WGC). WGC to Hertford already has the half hourly 323 so why doesn't the 724 omit WGC and save 20-25 minutes by running directly between Hatfield and Hertford.

I suppose the 725 extension makes up for the 322 being withdrawn between Rickmansworth and Maple Cross but to divert the 724 around Downings Wood seems a backward step for this route, we wait to see how many minutes this adds especially southbound. This arises from the appalling neglect and deterioration of the Watford area by Arriva, the reduction of the 322 to half hourly being the latest step. The trunk service south from Watford via Whippendell Road to Rickmansworth on what used to be the 321 was at least 4 buses per hour, more in peaks and more on Saturdays, plus the 724 and 727 via the main road and the 385 via Croxley Green. Now it is to be just 2 buses per hour plus 724 and 725. And most of Watford has just been left to rot and the services supported by the council with independent operators and much reduced. I cannot believe that Watford is such poor bus territory compared to, say, Luton.

 

[Robertj21a]

The trouble with the 724 is that it is so slow heading east-west across Hertfordshire, largely because it serves Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City. It takes a ludicrous hour and a quarter from St Albans to Hertford while in a car it takes only half an hour. If the 725 is to be extended to Heathrow - giving a half hourly service between Heathrow and Watford via Uxbridge - then this covers Welwyn Garden City (as this route is the quickest between St Albans and WGC). WGC to Hertford already has the half hourly 323 so why doesn't the 724 omit WGC and save 20-25 minutes by running directly between Hatfield and Hertford.

I suppose the 725 extension makes up for the 322 being withdrawn between Rickmansworth and Maple Cross but to divert the 724 around Downings Wood seems a backward step for this route, we wait to see how many minutes this adds especially southbound. This arises from the appalling neglect and deterioration of the Watford area by Arriva, the reduction of the 322 to half hourly being the latest step. The trunk service south from Watford via Whippendell Road to Rickmansworth on what used to be the 321 was at least 4 buses per hour, more in peaks and more on Saturdays, plus the 724 and 727 via the main road and the 385 via Croxley Green. Now it is to be just 2 buses per hour plus 724 and 725. And most of Watford has just been left to rot and the services supported by the council with independent operators and much reduced. I cannot believe that Watford is such poor bus territory compared to, say, Luton.

Wouldn't another operator start running a suitable service if Arriva was really that poor? - or is it that, like so many other places, the pax numbers have simply fallen away?

 

[markymark2000]

Wouldn't another operator start running a suitable service if Arriva was really that poor? - or is it that, like so many other places, the pax numbers have simply fallen away?

Even based on the passenger numbers being there, the bus industry in the past 10 years or so has really tried to cut back on the amount of on the road competition and instead everyone just sits around singing Kumbaya and hoping that the incumbent takes the relevant action to improve themsevles, and when they don't, slowly the incumbent runs things down, says things aren't viable, withdraws the route. By that time passenger numbers are so low that it's not really worth someone taking over, so it ends up as a tender.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Even based on the passenger numbers being there, the bus industry in the past 10 years or so has really tried to cut back on the amount of on the road competition and instead everyone just sits around singing Kumbaya and hoping that the incumbent takes the relevant action to improve themsevles, and when they don't, slowly the incumbent runs things down, says things aren't viable, withdraws the route. By that time passenger numbers are so low that it's not really worth someone taking over, so it ends up as a tender.

It is probably fair to say the current political environment is very much against straight head to head on the road competition so operators do tend to shy away from it unless you can disguise it under a pretence of a new link or provision (some of the Arriva Busway changes are a little aggressive towards other operators of existing routes in the area but it isn't obvious given the wider context of the changes it is happening with) then an operator will want to be very sure they can make a positive difference before kicking something off.

That said there are some fundamental changes to the underlying conditions of the bus industry that also mitigate against straight head to head competition. Competition like this was rarely big company on big company, there were exceptions of course like Chester etc, and there are fewer small operators and new entrants due to increased barriers to entry so there are fewer potential competitors. Costs are higher for everyone (not just operating costs, buying extra ticket machines is now a huge expense) so it is harder to justify the risk of the attempt and extended registration periods mean that if it doesn't work you have to run longer at a loss until you can get it back off, again pushing up risk. Passenger expectations are higher so you can't just rock up with some ancient vehicles and think you will compare, even against the at best average delivery from Arriva in places, you need to be sure you can offer a distinct improvement to kick this stuff off. Driver shortages may not be as pressing as they were but operators may still not be confident that they can find the additionals for large scale new commercial work this would entail. Additionally the growth of modern off-bus ticketing via mobile apps mean customers may be more tied to their existing provider than they wore, not insurmountable but feeds into that need to be sure you will be providing something bigger and better than the incumbent.

None of this stops you doing it but it does make it less likely that you will take the punt.

The trouble with the 724 is that it is so slow heading east-west across Hertfordshire, largely because it serves Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City. It takes a ludicrous hour and a quarter from St Albans to Hertford while in a car it takes only half an hour. If the 725 is to be extended to Heathrow - giving a half hourly service between Heathrow and Watford via Uxbridge - then this covers Welwyn Garden City (as this route is the quickest between St Albans and WGC). WGC to Hertford already has the half hourly 323 so why doesn't the 724 omit WGC and save 20-25 minutes by running directly between Hatfield and Hertford.

It may be possible now with both the 323/324 & 725 extension but both are very much recent innovations in terms of providing strong alternatives and for years the 724 was the main (& for a while only) bus from Hertford to WGC. There probably is a case for making this change now, whether Arriva are switched on enough to notice would be a question, but making such major changes is a risk in terms of generating negative reaction (even where it is unwarranted and alternative provision exists so no one loses connections) particularly for a large remote group so evaluation may be wanted after the 725 extension comes in before making a decision.

 

[markymark2000]

It is probably fair to say the current political environment is very much against straight head to head on the road competition so operators do tend to shy away from it unless you can disguise it under a pretence of a new link or provision (some of the Arriva Busway changes are a little aggressive towards other operators of existing routes in the area but it isn't obvious given the wider context of the changes it is happening with) then an operator will want to be very sure they can make a positive difference before kicking something off.

This has been going on far longer than the 'current political environment' though. As it say, it dates back around 10 years when comparing in my own area.

I agree with your other comments though.

That said there are some fundamental changes to the underlying conditions of the bus industry that also mitigate against straight head to head competition. Competition like this was rarely big company on big company, there were exceptions of course like Chester etc, and there are fewer small operators and new entrants due to increased barriers to entry so there are fewer potential competitors. Costs are higher for everyone (not just operating costs, buying extra ticket machines is now a huge expense) so it is harder to justify the risk of the attempt and extended registration periods mean that if it doesn't work you have to run longer at a loss until you can get it back off, again pushing up risk. Passenger expectations are higher so you can't just rock up with some ancient vehicles and think you will compare, even against the at best average delivery from Arriva in places, you need to be sure you can offer a distinct improvement to kick this stuff off. Driver shortages may not be as pressing as they were but operators may still not be confident that they can find the additionals for large scale new commercial work this would entail. Additionally the growth of modern off-bus ticketing via mobile apps mean customers may be more tied to their existing provider than they wore, not insurmountable but feeds into that need to be sure you will be providing something bigger and better than the incumbent.

None of this stops you doing it but it does make it less likely that you will take the punt.

Agree in full. Certainly some of these issues are more relevant now than in the past with ticket machines charging for add-ons like open data compliance on a 'per machine' basis, driver costs being higher, less available drivers etc etc.

Perhaps if it wasn't for more competitive companies being so far away, competition may have happened. The closer companies (or even a few others who aren't close but operate in or around Watford), wouldn't pass on quality sadly, and others are too far to make it work viably.

 

[greenline712]

As a local (to Watford) I would always lay a large chunk of the blame for the terrible bus services (both network and operationally) at the door of Arriva . . . but that's not the only reason.

The local council structure is that Watford Borough is almost totally surrounded by Three Rivers District, and on the remaining side by Hertsmere Borough . . . sometimes only two miles from the centre of Watford. All three councils have different attitudes to bus transport, and Herts CC haven't been able to broker any sort of agreement between them (not that they've tried especially hard).

Additionally, the London Buses influence shouldn't be under-estimated. Although only one corridor with two routes, the cheap fares (and free for kids) since 2005-ish have influenced local attitudes ("if Bushey can have it, then why can't we"), such that locals won't even contemplate using the bus, even if it is actually convenient!

The fiasco that was Arriva Click, where Watford Borough spaffed something between £2.5m and £4m (depending which Watford Observer article is consulted) on a DRT operation that was restricted to Watford residents only, so residents of Croxley, South Oxhey and North Bushey were denied usage . . . and starting it in July 2020, when social distancing was still all the rage . . . bound to fail. I've calculated that another 10-12 PVR could have been funded on regular bus routes for two years with that money . . . and that would've done wonders for frequencies. Running a bus every 10 minutes between Holywell and the Junction? Bound to succeed!!

As far as competition is concerned . . . the last time was in 2007-2009, when Metroline had a go from a local base hard by Junction 6. Two routes were operated at 2 BPH, with a third ready to go, but regrettably Metroline took fright at the escalating losses and pulled the plug at short notice. Since then, only Mullany's Coaches has had a try (ut only in a limited way) . . . although their (Irish) parent company, again, couldn't see that slow progress was being made, and stepped back. There is only Uno left locally, and they only have a minority presence in the area.

What is probably needed is a minibus revolution in the town . . . coupled with a huge escalation in parking charges (classic stick and carrot). Is there anyone brave enough? No . . . not nearly . . . so the deterioration will continue. I honestly can't see Arriva remaining much longer . . . perhaps the answer is actually for them to withdraw, which will force Herts CC to do something substantial.

As far as Route 724 is concerned . . . with the revision to Route 725, I quite like the idea of running direct between Hertford and Hatfield, although 724 does perform a local function on the east side of WGC (I'm sure that 323/324 can be tweaked to cover). It would lose the link between Harlow and WGC of course . . . but whether that's important enough to worry about isn't known. Maple Cross? There is a contracted R1/R2 that might be tweaked in the longer term.

All in all . . . please don't forget that Arriva Kent Thameside are still the commercial operator in the area, and until (if-when) they leave, Herts CC are somewhat restricted . . . they cannot "force" Arriva KT to make changes, only suggest and propose. If only Arriva Midlands were in charge . . . !!