Avanti Class 221s to Cross Country

[357]

In fact at one time, wasn't there a train of thought than an electric carriage could be inserted, making them bimode?

There was lots of talk but I never saw anything official, and the way Voyagers are designed would mean it would likely cost the same as building new stock.

 

[dk1]

In fact at one time, wasn't there a train of thought than an electric carriage could be inserted, making them bimode?

Sadly ‘Project Thor’ turned out to be prohibitively expensive.

 

[Trainman40083]

Sadly ‘Project Thor’ turned out to be prohibitively expensive.

I am not surprised. Been cheaper to build a new unit with a longer life expectancy

 

[Russel]

It can’t be that difficult considering they’re about to knock the shops out of the Virgin West Coast examples. And replaced them with a large overblown air conditioned luggage rack and bicycle space.

Ah yeah, misread your post, I thought you was referring to adding seating capacity...

 

[Davester50]

Had the delight of an ex-West Coast voyager on Cross Country last week, in First.
Wasn't that impressed with the pleather seats, to be honest.
The old purple Cross Country first class moquette on the other stock is much nicer.

 

[cj_1985]

Not dense enough if you ask many XC passengers who regularly stand through most of the day. Nobody knew around 1999 when they were ordered that rail use would explode as it did since. Their class 47 and HST predecessors had more coaches but the frequencies were roughly half. The idea was shorter, more frequent trains were preferable to longer and less frequent. Now you need both.

Worth pointing out that Virgin wanted to order additional voyager carriages when it became obvious 4 and 5 carriages weren't enough for the XC network but they were over ruled by the oh so wonderful SRA that some of you may remember made other 'smart' decisions... like cutting the number of class 185s ordered

 

[JonathanH]

Worth pointing out that Virgin wanted to order additional voyager carriages when it became obvious 4 and 5 carriages weren't enough for the XC network but they were over ruled by the oh so wonderful SRA that some of you may remember made other 'smart' decisions... like cutting the number of class 285s ordered

That was just to make the 4-coach Voyagers up to 5-coach I think. Was on discussion through 2002, but never happened when everything went wrong.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Had the delight of an ex-West Coast voyager on Cross Country last week, in First.
Wasn't that impressed with the pleather seats, to be honest.
The old purple Cross Country first class moquette on the other stock is much nicer.

Strangely I always preferred the ex Avanti First Class seats compared to the Cross Country ones.

 

[Dan G]

Or have more coaches.

All standing would be more “efficient” if that’s the only metric!

Then your train ticket would be even more expensive.

 

[The exile]

Not dense enough if you ask many XC passengers who regularly stand through most of the day. Nobody knew around 1999 when they were ordered that rail use would explode as it did since. Their class 47 and HST predecessors had more coaches but the frequencies were roughly half. The idea was shorter, more frequent trains were preferable to longer and less frequent.

I think you will find there were plenty of people predicting precisely what happened. However, those predictions didn’t fit the party line so were rubbished.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you will find there were plenty of people predicting precisely what happened. However, those predictions didn’t fit the party line so were rubbished.

Indeed. The plan resulted in a reduction in overall capacity while improving the service. It could never have worked, and anyone who knew anything about the railway thought that.

See also TPE and Class 185, which was only fixed with the much later coming of the 80x and 397s. But at least they did actually fix that!

 

[jhy44]

I've not been able to find a post in the thread which clearly summarizes the numbers; is my inferred understanding below correct?

Avanti had 18 Class 221 units.
7 of these have been transferred to CrossCountry
The remaining 11 have been returned to the ROSCO and are now in storage/not being used.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've not been able to find a post in the thread which clearly summarizes the numbers; is my inferred understanding below correct?

Avanti had 18 Class 221 units.
7 of these have been transferred to CrossCountry
The remaining 11 have been returned to the ROSCO and are now in storage/not being used.

No, the 7 became 12 ages ago, it was all covered earlier in this thread at the time, but post #369 is a recent link to the XC announcement.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I've not been able to find a post in the thread which clearly summarizes the numbers; is my inferred understanding below correct?

Avanti had 18 Class 221 units.
7 of these have been transferred to CrossCountry
The remaining 11 have been returned to the ROSCO and are now in storage/not being used.

They had 20.
2 went to Grand Central leaving 18.
12 went to CrossCountry leaving 6.

I believe the 2 with Grand Central will return to the ROSCO soon enough, leaving 8 remaining for whatever use.

 

[jhy44]

Great, thanks for clarifying

 

[Trainman40083]

I did see a few 8 /9 car workings through Derby, earlier in the week. I did feel sorry for the passengers on a 4 car mind.

 

[357]

2 went to Grand Central leaving 18.

Just to clear this up for anyone reading this in the future - Avanti terminated the lease of unit 142 and 143 as a cost saving measure - and after they sat off lease for quite some time GC picked them up.

 

[XC victim]

They had 20.
2 went to Grand Central leaving 18.
12 went to CrossCountry leaving 6.

I believe the 2 with Grand Central will return to the ROSCO soon enough, leaving 8 remaining for whatever use.

It is really good to know when we are stood on a packed 4 coach XC voyager for several hours, that there are 6 x 5 car units just sat in storage not being used.

The increase in capacity from a 4 coach voyager to a 5 coach is really significant. I have recently travelled on a few Reading - Newcastle (/York) services, which were 4 coach and they were so packed they were literally leaving people behind on the platform.

Also with XC services now so significantly cut compared to pre-Covid where are all the extra units that should be available?

 

[99009]

For anyone wanting an update on the 221's since my last post (post 328, page 11), the current situation of the 221's is:

221101 - 221106 - Stored/Unknown/Possible Open Access
221107 - 221110 - XC
221111 - Presumably XC Soon
221112 - 221141 - XC
221142+221143 - Grand Central (Then Store/Unknown/Open Access)
221144 - XC

 

[Kettledrum]

It is for everyone - including the staff who now need to lock out sets and work overcrowded half trains.

I was on a unit recently that needed the rear unit locked out of use and it took half an hour to get everyone and their luggage off and onto the front unit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2025 ==

and if trains are delayed because of having to decant passengers out of a unit which is to be locked out of use, there would be delay-repay implications. And the delay-repay costs would exceed the costs of having to pay the catering staff more to staff the unit to keep it in use.....so that's another reason why it's a poor decision all round to be locking units out of use. Notwithstanding the terrible passenger service.

 

[357]

and if trains are delayed because of having to decant passengers out of a unit which is to be locked out of use, there would be delay-repay implications. And the delay-repay costs would exceed the costs of having to pay the catering staff more to staff the unit to keep it in use.....so that's another reason why it's a poor decision all round to be locking units out of use. Notwithstanding the terrible passenger service.

Indeed. RMT have now announced an overtime ban because of it.

 

[Trainman40083]

and if trains are delayed because of having to decant passengers out of a unit which is to be locked out of use, there would be delay-repay implications. And the delay-repay costs would exceed the costs of having to pay the catering staff more to staff the unit to keep it in use.....so that's another reason why it's a poor decision all round to be locking units out of use. Notwithstanding the terrible passenger service.

Yes, but it probably reduces the number of passengers over time, and some will not travel by train again.

 

[dk1]

Yes, but it probably reduces the number of passengers over time, and some will not travel by train again.

Thing is though things like this and other major issues have always been the case with the railways yet in my experience most passengers do come back and the trains get busier than ever.

 

[tfw756rider]

It is really good to know when we are stood on a packed 4 coach XC voyager for several hours, that there are 6 x 5 car units just sat in storage not being used.

The increase in capacity from a 4 coach voyager to a 5 coach is really significant. I have recently travelled on a few Reading - Newcastle (/York) services, which were 4 coach and they were so packed they were literally leaving people behind on the platform.

Also with XC services now so significantly cut compared to pre-Covid where are all the extra units that should be available?

CrossCountry were only going to acquire 7 ex-Avanti 221s, and they pushed the Department for Transport to up the quantity to 12 to the point where they ended up being like "oh OK fine", so I highly doubt any more than the 12 will end up transferring unfortunately.

 

[occone]

It is really good to know when we are stood on a packed 4 coach XC voyager for several hours, that there are 6 x 5 car units just sat in storage not being used.

It was abhorrent yesterday, so much so the conductor encouraged people to write in to XC saying they've provided their smallest train for the journey.

Somehow I was lucky having upgraded to first class yet it was still uncomfortably busy with people unable to leave first class because the corridor was full to the brim, and people just sitting (and standing) in first because what else were they going to do.

I remember when customers grouped up and went on a fare strike with First Great Western. It's one for a separate thread but I'd love customers to group up against XC and cause a political stink. Only way it'll ever change.

 

[Jimini]

Some of the Seatfrog bids I saw yesterday / Thursday for the Brum <> Reading corridor were eye-watering. People want a seat and are prepared to shell out for it, clearly!

 

[800Travel]

It was abhorrent yesterday, so much so the conductor encouraged people to write in to XC saying they've provided their smallest train for the journey.

Somehow I was lucky having upgraded to first class yet it was still uncomfortably busy with people unable to leave first class because the corridor was full to the brim, and people just sitting (and standing) in first because what else were they going to do.

I remember when customers grouped up and went on a fare strike with First Great Western. It's one for a separate thread but I'd love customers to group up against XC and cause a political stink. Only way it'll ever change.

What's a fare strike? Refusing to pay for travel? Because that would likely just land all participants in hot water

 

[trainswitheddy]

What's a fare strike? Refusing to pay for travel? Because that would likely just land all participants in hot water

I'd assume just avoiding XC where possible?

 

[800Travel]

I'd assume just avoiding XC where possible?

Oh - so turns out I’m doing one of those then already lol! Ahead of the crowd for once

 

[trainswitheddy]

Oh - so turns out I’m doing one of those then already lol! Ahead of the crowd for once

You and me the same