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Avanti Class 221s to Cross Country

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irish_rail

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Disappointing to see 5-car on the Manchester to Bournemouth trains between 10:25 and 15:25.
Out of Plymouth on Friday, just one double set between 0827 and 1427. This wealth of new ex avanti sets is certainly waiting to make its presence felt.... it is frustrating XC still seem to obsess about providing the majority of seats into and out of Birmingham in the rush hour. Controversial opinion perhaps, but is it the end of the world if a commuter has to stand between Tamworth and Birmingham? Surely that's preferable to standees from Exeter to Birmngham???
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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Out of Plymouth on Friday, just one double set between 0827 and 1427. This wealth of new ex avanti sets is certainly waiting to make its presence felt.... it is frustrating XC still seem to obsess about providing the majority of seats into and out of Birmingham in the rush hour. Controversial opinion perhaps, but is it the end of the world if a commuter has to stand between Tamworth and Birmingham? Surely that's preferable to standees from Exeter to Birmngham???
A number were doubles from later in the journey, such as Bristol. I fail to see a huge issue with that. You tend to constantly maintain a view that Exeter and Plymouth need the longest of GWR and XC’s formations, and they don’t.

I’d rather six Plymouth Edinburgh services were eight or nine cars from Bristol, than three Plymouth Edinburgh services be eight or nine cars throughout and three be four or five cars throughout as a result. And it’s quite obviously not done for the benefit of commuter hops to Tamworth and Burton.
 
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Is that just short for today though? Likewise with all the aforementioned Manchester to Bournemouth services. It is only the first weekday of the new timetable, in fairness.
1V58 is now diagrammed as a single voyager Sun-Thur, Friday and Saturday is a double set.
 

DBS92042

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A number were doubles from later in the journey, such as Bristol. I fail to see a huge issue with that. You tend to constantly maintain a view that Exeter and Plymouth need the longest of GWR and XC’s formations, and they don’t.

I’d rather six Plymouth Edinburgh services were eight or nine cars from Bristol, than three Plymouth Edinburgh services be eight or nine cars throughout and three be four or five cars throughout as a result. And it’s quite obviously not done for the benefit of commuter hops to Tamworth and Burton.
1V52 EDB-PNZ (now the only direct XC service to PNZ from further north than Bristol) today was 4 coaches and was very full by Cheltenham Spa, pretty sure a few were left behind there (or opted not to join the sauna and wait for a later train!). I left the train at Bristol Temple Meads where there was quite the crowd waiting to join as well...
 

hux385

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Is there a pattern to which services end up being 4/5 or 8/9 carriages? How much of it varies day-to-day? Is there any way of knowing in advance except for checking RealTime Trains on the day?
 

43055

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Is there a pattern to which services end up being 4/5 or 8/9 carriages? How much of it varies day-to-day? Is there any way of knowing in advance except for checking RealTime Trains on the day?
Services will be booked single or double sets so should remain fairly consistent. Obviously if one fails then a double may become a single for example.
A number were doubles from later in the journey, such as Bristol. I fail to see a huge issue with that. You tend to constantly maintain a view that Exeter and Plymouth need the longest of GWR and XC’s formations, and they don’t.

I’d rather six Plymouth Edinburgh services were eight or nine cars from Bristol, than three Plymouth Edinburgh services be eight or nine cars throughout and three be four or five cars throughout as a result. And it’s quite obviously not done for the benefit of commuter hops to Tamworth and Burton.
Indeed. Looking at Derby to Bristol for example, the number of double sets is the same today as it was last Monday just the services which they appear on has changed which I think part of it is down to the change in the Penzance extensions.

Manchester services appear to have not changed in terms of double sets.
 

Snow1964

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Just 221111 yet to enter service with XC now.

Don't forget Cross Country formally announced all 12 extra (ex Avanti) units would be in service by this month (ok, still 11 days left) and would be 36,000 extra seats per week
The 12 extra trains - totalling 60 additional carriages - will strengthen CrossCountry’s long-distance services from May 2025, increasing capacity on north-south routes by over 36,000 seats per week. Combined with a new timetable proposed from May 2025, rail users will see more services as well as longer trains across the network – particularly on CrossCountry’s busy Reading to Newcastle corridor.


So have they actually delivered 36,000 extra seats per week ?
 

swt_passenger

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Don't forget Cross Country formally announced all 12 extra (ex Avanti) units would be in service by this month (ok, still 11 days left) and would be 36,000 extra seats per week



So have they actually delivered 36,000 extra seats per week ?
I don’t believe the supporting overhaul programme ever started on time. So if it has now started late, at the intended 3 units in hand, the 12 extra must only be a net 9 extra? The emphasis on reinstating services on the Reading Newcastle corridor in that PR announcement seems to have ended up as a token gesture, only one service being extended from York to Newcastle and return. They haven’t achieved the service increases their track access application bid for. I suppose some more services might be reinstated in December.
 

duffield

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I don’t believe the supporting overhaul programme ever started on time. So if it has now started late, at the intended 3 units in hand, the 12 extra must only be a net 9 extra? The emphasis on reinstating services on the Reading Newcastle corridor in that PR announcement seems to have ended up as a token gesture, only one service being extended from York to Newcastle and return. They haven’t achieved the service increases their track access application bid for. I suppose some more services might be reinstated in December.
The initial draft timetable for December which we saw before it was removed showed, for example, approximately twice as many XC trains Northbound via Doncaster to York/Newcastle, pretty much restoring what was once the full service - but I suspect this was purely from the point of view of making the big ECML timetable recast work when and if those services are eventually fully reinstated, rather than any solid indication as to which, if any, extra services will actually run.

I'm not sure that even with all the extra 221s in service, XC have enough units to run the "full timetable" even if they could staff them - which seems unlikely.
 

Mogz

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The Coach D arrangement on the ex-Avanti Voyagers shows just how spacious and comfortable these trains could have been across the board if they had been longer and had a less dense seating layout.
 

Bletchleyite

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The Coach D arrangement on the ex-Avanti Voyagers shows just how spacious and comfortable these trains could have been across the board if they had been longer and had a less dense seating layout.

The trouble is that the incredibly inefficient interior layout means that if you lay a 5-car out like that it barely has more seats than a 3-car Turbostar. Thus you're forced to cram them in a bit.
 

Mogz

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The trouble is that the incredibly inefficient interior layout means that if you lay a 5-car out like that it barely has more seats than a 3-car Turbostar. Thus you're forced to cram them in a bit.
Or have more coaches.

All standing would be more “efficient” if that’s the only metric!
 

357

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The trouble is that the incredibly inefficient interior layout means that if you lay a 5-car out like that it barely has more seats than a 3-car Turbostar. Thus you're forced to cram them in a bit.
The toilets are wonderfully inefficient on Voyagers and must shorter the "seated sections" by at least a coach over a 5 car unit.
 

Trainman40083

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The toilets are wonderfully inefficient on Voyagers and must shorter the "seated sections" by at least a coach over a 5 car unit.
Yes and on the EMR units, you can have two wardrobe sized ones in the same space
 

RailWonderer

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The Coach D arrangement on the ex-Avanti Voyagers shows just how spacious and comfortable these trains could have been across the board if they had been longer and had a less dense seating layout.
Not dense enough if you ask many XC passengers who regularly stand through most of the day. Nobody knew around 1999 when they were ordered that rail use would explode as it did since. Their class 47 and HST predecessors had more coaches but the frequencies were roughly half. The idea was shorter, more frequent trains were preferable to longer and less frequent. Now you need both.
 

fgwrich

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Yes and on the EMR units, you can have two wardrobe sized ones in the same space
It is a little disappointing that the refurbishment doesn’t include such step to do this. Or, HST style with one cupboard toilet and one large luggage rack.
 

Russel

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The toilets are wonderfully inefficient on Voyagers and must shorter the "seated sections" by at least a coach over a 5 car unit.

Awful design really, I can see no good reason why every toilet had to be a disabled toilet, from memory, at least two could be the smaller traditional style toilets as on the 222s and 390s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It is a little disappointing that the refurbishment doesn’t include such step to do this. Or, HST style with one cupboard toilet and one large luggage rack.

Given the Voyagers are 20+ years old, I can imagine the structural work involved would be too costly to entertain.
 

JamesT

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Awful design really, I can see no good reason why every toilet had to be a disabled toilet, from memory, at least two could be the smaller traditional style toilets as on the 222s and 390s.
Allegedly Virgin originally planned for there to be three classes of accommodation on the Voyagers, therefore you needed an accessible toilet for every class. The 222s being later, had the opportunity to learn from some of the mistakes of the 220/221.
 

Russel

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Allegedly Virgin originally planned for there to be three classes of accommodation on the Voyagers, therefore you needed an accessible toilet for every class. The 222s being later, had the opportunity to learn from some of the mistakes of the 220/221.

Ah yeah, I'd forgotten about that concept!

Three classes of accommodation on a four car unit, I can't possibly think why that never took off.
 

Bletchleyite

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Ah yeah, I'd forgotten about that concept!

Three classes of accommodation on a four car unit, I can't possibly think why that never took off.

Well, quite. I seem to recall the Standard end coach was to have been a 3+2 layout "Virgin Value" class, and that this was the reason for the seat pitch (even as 2+2) being slightly tighter in that vehicle. Anyone who's ever been in a 720 (similar width) knows that's a bad idea! :)
 

Russel

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Well, quite. I seem to recall the Standard end coach was to have been a 3+2 layout "Virgin Value" class, and that this was the reason for the seat pitch (even as 2+2) being slightly tighter in that vehicle. Anyone who's ever been in a 720 (similar width) knows that's a bad idea! :)

Interesting.

Never noticed a difference in sea pitch, I'll have to pay more attention next time I'm on a Voyager!

A voyager with a 720 style interior, now there's a terrible though.
 

danshrimp

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Well, quite. I seem to recall the Standard end coach was to have been a 3+2 layout "Virgin Value" class, and that this was the reason for the seat pitch (even as 2+2) being slightly tighter in that vehicle. Anyone who's ever been in a 720 (similar width) knows that's a bad idea! :)
Given the renewed publicity the idea of 'standing seats' on airplanes has been getting over the past 24 hours (and already adopted in some of the new Chinese-built Czech trains) we should probably be glad that Branson's nonsense wasn't allowed to go any further or who knows where we'd be by now!
 

fgwrich

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Awful design really, I can see no good reason why every toilet had to be a disabled toilet, from memory, at least two could be the smaller traditional style toilets as on the 222s and 390s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Given the Voyagers are 20+ years old, I can imagine the structural work involved would be too costly to entertain.
It can’t be that difficult considering they’re about to knock the shops out of the Virgin West Coast examples. And replaced them with a large overblown air conditioned luggage rack and bicycle space.
 

Bletchleyite

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It can’t be that difficult considering they’re about to knock the shops out of the Virgin West Coast examples. And replaced them with a large overblown air conditioned luggage rack and bicycle space.

To be fair, with the tiny, uselessly shaped overhead racks this extra luggage space is very useful indeed. It's also not particularly well ventilated nor air conditioned!
 

Class 317

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It can’t be that difficult considering they’re about to knock the shops out of the Virgin West Coast examples. And replaced them with a large overblown air conditioned luggage rack and bicycle space.
This can be done without needing to make major structural changes. I believe removing the original disabled toilet module was looked t but it was installed before the roof as one unit and therefore difficult to remove.
 

357

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And replaced them with a large overblown air conditioned luggage rack and bicycle space.
They aren't air conditioned like the saloons are - the vestibule door is between the shop and the passenger seats. This is why there are forces air vents for the person working in the shop.

After the mod, they are conditioned the same as any doorway on the unit.
 

Snow1964

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Nobody knew around 1999 when they were ordered that rail use would explode as it did since. Their class 47 and HST predecessors had more coaches but the frequencies were roughly half. The idea was shorter, more frequent trains were preferable to longer and less frequent. Now you need both.
Initially they did allow for growth, that's why the end coaches are A and F, so they could build and add intermediate vehicles, making them upto 6car. But they never got the extra vehicles.
 

Trainman40083

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Allegedly Virgin originally planned for there to be three classes of accommodation on the Voyagers, therefore you needed an accessible toilet for every class. The 222s being later, had the opportunity to learn from some of the mistakes of the 220/221.
One of the best things they learnt, was a floor stud, so you could open the door when carrying stuff back from the buffet. Then they closed the buffet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Initially they did allow for growth, that's why the end coaches are A and F, so they could build and add intermediate vehicles, making them upto 6car. But they never got the extra vehicles.
In fact at one time, wasn't there a train of thought than an electric carriage could be inserted, making them bimode?
 
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