New US traveler with questions

[WesternLancer]

Sitting together (or across from each other) is a priority above everything else.
Good views are always welcome but sitting together is important for trip planning.
The departure time (10:50a) is important, could go one train later but 10:50a is best for us.
Food on board is not a necessity.
Price is not as important, but if we can save a pound and still sit together, that'd be great too.
Hope this clarifies

Thanks. That’s helpful.

I wonder if we know yet what types of train would operate those services on your travel date? It’s a Friday in august aiui.

Yesterday as a Friday the 10.50 departure was a lower quality type of train than the following departure to Edinburgh at 12.48. Though I’d say there’s a subjective element in that. Others here may have different views!

 

[WesternLancer]

You might genuinely find it easier to get seats all together in Standard Class, particularly if using the 1050 departure.

Wouldn’t reserved table for four in the first class carriage of an Inter7city HST be what the best option is?

A whole carriage as shown here
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/seven-cities-hst-enters-service

Pics clearly show the quality and comfort of the first class carriage compared with standard class. Other train types don’t achieve that quality in first class however.

I’d be interested in regular users who might think I’m wrong of course.

So just a question of helping the op select a time that would provide such a high quality offer. No difference in price of ticket after all.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks. That’s helpful.

I wonder if we know yet what types of train would operate those services on your travel date? It’s a Friday in august aiui.

Yesterday as a Friday the 10.50 departure was a lower quality type of train than the following departure to Edinburgh at 12.48. Though I’d say there’s a subjective element in that. Others here may have different views!

The 1050 is booked 170+158, the 1248 is booked an I7C HST.

 

[marklyn]

You might genuinely find it easier to get seats all together in Standard Class, particularly if using the 1050 departure.

We considered that but this is our friends first trip in Scotland and a train ride. We wanted them to have a great experience for a 'longer' ride. We also felt that since this route starts in Inverness, we'd have a good chance of getting 4 seats together (what is this called anyway?). That being said, if we couldn't get those seats in FC, we'd have no problems going to standard.

 

[hexagon789]

Wouldn’t reserved table for four in the first class carriage of an Inter7city HST be what the best option is?

Yes, but if the OP wishes to use the 1050 departure its a mixed 158/170. The First Class is 18 seats, arranged in two cabins of 9 at the outer ends of the 170 unit only. Each cabin has only one four-seat table, meanwhile Standard Class has several such tables particularly in the 158 unit.

 

[hexagon789]

We considered that but this is our friends first trip in Scotland and a train ride. We wanted them to have a great experience for a 'longer' ride. We also felt that since this route starts in Inverness, we'd have a good chance of getting 4 seats together (what is this called anyway?). That being said, if we couldn't get those seats in FC, we'd have no problems going to standard.

I can understand that, and generally you shouldn't have any problems but as the seating arrangements vary with the different train types used the availability of the type of seating you want equally differs.

I would just call it a four-seater table, I think everyone would know what you mean. The other seating style is usually called airline, where pairs of seats face not against a full size table, but the backs of the seats in front with a fold-down tray table instead.

 

[WesternLancer]

The 1050 is booked 170+158, the 1248 is booked an I7C HST.

And would that be the case in August too?

 

[WesternLancer]

We considered that but this is our friends first trip in Scotland and a train ride. We wanted them to have a great experience for a 'longer' ride. We also felt that since this route starts in Inverness, we'd have a good chance of getting 4 seats together (what is this called anyway?). That being said, if we couldn't get those seats in FC, we'd have no problems going to standard.

This is the reason I’m suggesting adjusting time to travel on the better quality of train really, if you have that flexibility.
Also as all the first class seats are together in one carriage it’s easier to move seat en route if you don’t have ideal seats but another passenger vacates part way for example.

You are planning well in advance however so very good to allow you to weigh up the options.

 

[marklyn]

Yes, but if the OP wishes to use the 1050 departure its a mixed 158/170. The First Class is 18 seats, arranged in two cabins of 9 at the outer ends of the 170 unit only. Each cabin has only one four-seat table, meanwhile Standard Class has several such tables particularly in the 158 unit.

I couldn't find the layout, does anyone have a link directly to the cars. The link in a previous post didn't work for me.

 

[WesternLancer]

I couldn't find the layout, does anyone have a link directly to the cars. The link in a previous post didn't work for me.

Yes. Didn’t work for me. I’m sure we can find something for you.

Easier if I wasn’t trying to find them on my phone!

 

[WesternLancer]

Seems annoying that Scotrail don't have clear plans with seat numbers showing etc on their own website.

This route you are likely to encounter 3 types of train (all diesel powered), 2 types with power units under the floor (the 170 type train or the 158 type train), and one type with power car at the 'Head end' and also rear end as I think you would say in the USA (this is the HST Inter7City Train')

So you could encounter 3 different layouts depending on the train type operating your preferred time of service

158 Train - no first class seats is mentioned above
170 Train - first class seats in small compartments at each end of the train, 9 seats in each compartment
HST train - one full 1st class carriage, all tables for 4 down most of the length of the carriage

I found a plan on another older thread here for the HST train as you can see below (1st class is the carriage at the bottom of the image)
But I realise with no seat numbers showing clearly it does not help you much when booking

Does anyone here know if Scotrail 158 and 170 train interiors are to the same layout as other companies that operate them such that a layout plan from another operator for that train type would help the OP?

Some UK train operators could do more to publish clear info!

 

[marklyn]

Yes. Didn’t work for me. I’m sure we can find something for you.

Easier if I wasn’t trying to find them on my phone!

So here's a question with a paraphrased scenario... when we travel by plane we can easily see the specific type of aircraft and go to a resource like seatguru to find the 'best' or most desirable seats in our class that we purchased. Even if they change aircraft for some reason, we can hop back over to seatguru, look up the seating and find new seats.
So, in the case of the 10:50am train we want to take from Inverness to Edinburgh on a specific day (Aug 15), will the train always be the same or are they occasionally temporarily 'switched out' like airlines occasionally do?
I assumed (probably incorrectly) that for a specific & regular route and a specific day of the week the train carriages are always the same...

 

[WesternLancer]

actually link in post #8 does helpfully allow you to access these plans - you have to download the plan from links in the link given. Maybe easier on a lap top or tablet to do this The plans are OK and have the seat numbers - select this link

Train seating plans for reservations - a Freedom of Information request to ScotRail Trains Limited

I would like, if possible, seating plans for each of the following classes of train you operate: Class 156 all variants Class 158 all variants Class 170 all variants HST Which illustrate exactly which seat numbers are allocated to each seat for reservation purposes. Yours faithfully, Wex Cel

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Then
open the reply of 18 May 2022 and drop down the list and you have a pdf download of the different train types I listed above.

Can you make that work? If not I guess I could try to download and re attach for you

 

[WesternLancer]

So here's a question with a paraphrased scenario... when we travel by plane we can easily see the specific type of aircraft and go to a resource like seatguru to find the 'best' or most desirable seats in our class that we purchased. Even if they change aircraft for some reason, we can hop back over to seatguru, look up the seating and find new seats.
So, in the case of the 10:50am train we want to take from Inverness to Edinburgh on a specific day (Aug 15), will the train always be the same or are they occasionally temporarily 'switched out' like airlines occasionally do?
I assumed (probably incorrectly) that for a specific & regular route and a specific day of the week the train carriages are always the same...

good question. I think they can be occasionally switched out /swapped but they will operate to a plan where the same train type usually operates the same service on a regular basis.
It would become clearer nearer the time and you can look at past allocations on previous days to check the patterns (but you'll have better things to do on holiday!)

When the final allocation is listed about midnight day before travel you can look it up on a site like this https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/

which if you put in Inverness for departures today and choose a departure listed a little picture of the exact train operating it will appear at the top of the list of times for example.

I'm embarrassed to say none of this helpful info is actually provided directly by a logical place like the railway operating company. I assume they think their customers are not interested....

 

[WesternLancer]

Maybe this works

158 type train - one image shows both cars with seat numbers
170 type train - 2 images, poor quality, no seat numbers - first class at the small spaces at the end (you get 3 seats across width of car in 1st class, 4 in standard across the width in the uk)
HST - individual cars images uploaded

 

[WesternLancer]

170 train interior first class area taken a few year back
each train has 2 compartments like this at each end of the 3 car train. Only one group of 4 seats in each compartment I think

First ScotRail Class 170/4 First Class interior - 170414, 31/07/2010

Explore Lee37427Stratford30A's 51831 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

158 type train interior for scotrail )no 1st class area on this type I think from what is mentioned up thread - this is standard class seating

Class 158 - Abellio ScotRail

The newer standard of interior on a ScotRail 158 Sprinter. Seen on Friday 17th May 2019.

www.flickr.com

HST 'Inter7cities' type train - Standard class interior (not a lot of airline style uni directional seats and fewer groups of 4 at a table together in standard class)

Scotrail HST Interior

Interior of Scotrail "Inter7City" refurbished Mark 3 HST TS 42045. 17th July 2019.

www.flickr.com

HST first class interior - all the seats down one side are I think groups of 4 (if not all almost all)

Scotrail HST

Here is the first class interior of the first Scotrail HST ‘Inter7City’.

www.flickr.com

 

[marklyn]

Maybe this works

158 type train - one image shows both cars with seat numbers
170 type train - 2 images, poor quality, no seat numbers - first class at the small spaces at the end (you get 3 seats across width of car in 1st class, 4 in standard across the width in the uk)
HST - individual cars images uploaded

Thanks for this! But my previous post was asking basically why are there 3 train types for this route? This is all very interesting to me and so far has cleared up quite a few incorrect assumptions on my part about train travel in the UK.

 

[The exile]

good question. I think they can be occasionally switched out /swapped but they will operate to a plan where the same train type usually operates the same service on a regular basis.
It would become clearer nearer the time and you can look at past allocations on previous days to check the patterns (but you'll have better things to do on holiday!)

When the final allocation is listed about midnight day before travel you can look it up on a site like this https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/

which if you put in Inverness for departures today and choose a departure listed a little picture of the exact train operating it will appear at the top of the list of times for example.

I'm embarrassed to say none of this helpful info is actually provided directly by a logical place like the railway operating company. I assume they think their customers are not interested....

The much greater difficulty is that even within a single class of train there may be several different variants of seating arrangement. Older types will be more prone to this as they may have been moved between operators / undergone different refurbishments etc. That said, the Scotrail fleet has been fairly stable…

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for this! But my previous post was asking basically why are there 3 train types for this route? This is all very interesting to me and so far has cleared up quite a few incorrect assumptions on my part about train travel in the UK.

Because the UK has not invested enough money in having standardized fleets on routes or in particular areas so these trains have been bought over the years for different purposes and some have been downgraded from top level services to slower routes like this route (the HST), or when they bought the trains in the past for the route they did not buy enough for the passenger demand that has grown (the 158 type) so a new different type from a later building programme has been used for the service (the 170).

It's a complex question relating to UK transport policy, investment, economics....

Plus you need a heck of a lot more trains to operate the route frequency we get in the UK / europe (even in low populated areas like scottish highlands) compared with the US style of '1 train per day' on routes outside of key urban areas.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for this! But my previous post was asking basically why are there 3 train types for this route? This is all very interesting to me and so far has cleared up quite a few incorrect assumptions on my part about train travel in the UK.

and there's a 4th type of train on the route too - LNER's 'Azuma' type long distance train - once per day to / from Inverness to London via Edinburgh

Scotrail HST

Here is the first class interior of the first Scotrail HST ‘Inter7City’.

www.flickr.com

so also works on electric power south of Edinburgh

and a 5th type on the route - the once per night London to Inverness 'caledonian sleeper' with sleeping cars and a seated carriage (what Amtrak would call 'coach' class on their overnight trains?)

London to Scotland by Caledonian Sleeper | 2026 times & tickets

Caledonian Sleeper guide with schedules, fares & tickets.

www.seat61.com

We've been keeping it simple for you

 

[hexagon789]

And would that be the case in August too?

Yes, it's showing as still a non-HST working and timed for 90mph so I assume exactly the same formation as now.

 

[marklyn]

and there's a 4th type of train on the route too - LNER's 'Azuma' type long distance train - once per day to / from Inverness to London via Edinburgh

Scotrail HST

Here is the first class interior of the first Scotrail HST ‘Inter7City’.

www.flickr.com

so also works on electric power south of Edinburgh

and a 5th type on the route - the once per night London to Inverness 'caledonian sleeper' with sleeping cars and a seated carriage (what Amtrak would call 'coach' class on their overnight trains?)

London to Scotland by Caledonian Sleeper | 2026 times & tickets

Caledonian Sleeper guide with schedules, fares & tickets.

www.seat61.com

We've been keeping it simple for you

Oh Lord. My head is spinning. At this point, when I'm able to buy tickets next week I'm going to buy the 10:50a Inv-Edi route for Aug 15 with a table seating res in FC and hope for the best

 

[The exile]

Because the UK has not invested enough money in having standardized fleets on routes or in particular areas so these trains have been bought over the years for different purposes and some have been downgraded from top level services to slower routes like this route (the HST), or when they bought the trains in the past for the route they did not buy enough for the passenger demand that has grown (the 158 type) so a new different type from a later building programme has been used for the service (the 170).

It's a complex question relating to UK transport policy, investment, economics....

Plus you need a heck of a lot more trains to operate the route frequency we get in the UK / europe (even in low populated areas like scottish highlands) compared with the US style of '1 train per day' on routes outside of key urban areas.

To be fair, there are very few operations which do not in some areas and / or at some stages have a variety of stock operating a particular service - in the UK or outside of it.

 

[WesternLancer]

To be fair, there are very few operations which do not in some areas and / or at some stages have a variety of stock operating a particular service - in the UK or outside of it.

indeed

 

[WesternLancer]

Oh Lord. My head is spinning. At this point, when I'm able to buy tickets next week I'm going to buy the 10:50a Inv-Edi route for Aug 15 with a table seating res in FC and hope for the best

OK - you've had the info to make an informed choice, it's not the best quality train on the route IMHO but your timings maybe what woks best for you and it should be decent quality enough.

You might get a ticket choice too

If there is not much money in the cost difference you should weigh up

an 'Advance Fare' - only can be used on the specified train that day and time. If train missed ticket has no value and a replacement ticket must be bought. These can sell out at different prices as they are 'quota controlled' eg they may have 10 seats/tickets at £10, 20 seats / tickets at £15 etc etc - like an airline. I don't buy these unless the discount provided over the prices of the fare types below is worth the saving to sacrifice the flexibility

'Off Peak' fare - can use the same ticket that day on any off peak train. So a choice of a later one if you need it or if plans change. You could reserve for a later train again if plans changed at no cost or just turn up on the platform in good time and find unreserved seats (there will be some) - the train starts in Inverness so no one can get there before you. Ticket like this can be bought up to a few minutes before departure of the train, they are not limited and can not sell out.

'Anytime' fare - this will be the maximum fare it's possible to pay - any train on the day of the ticket including at a peak time. Again it can't sell out ahead of the train departing (this is because UK trains allow people without seats to stand if they need to!)

We can look the prices up for you if you like so you know what to expect to pay for these different options for that journey

 

[marklyn]

OK - you've had the info to make an informed choice, it's not the best quality train on the route IMHO but your timings maybe what woks best for you and it should be decent quality enough.

You might get a ticket choice too

If there is not much money in the cost difference you should weigh up

an 'Advance Fare' - only can be used on the specified train that day and time. If train missed ticket has no value and a replacement ticket must be bought. These can sell out at different prices as they are 'quota controlled' eg they may have 10 seats/tickets at £10, 20 seats / tickets at £15 etc etc - like an airline. I don't buy these unless the discount provided over the prices of the fare types below is worth the saving to sacrifice the flexibility

'Off Peak' fare - can use the same ticket that day on any off peak train. So a choice of a later one if you need it or if plans change. You could reserve for a later train again if plans changed at no cost or just turn up on the platform in good time and find unreserved seats (there will be some) - the train starts in Inverness so no one can get there before you. Ticket like this can be bought up to a few minutes before departure of the train, they are not limited and can not sell out.

'Anytime' fare - this will be the maximum fare it's possible to pay - any train on the day of the ticket including at a peak time. Again it can't sell out ahead of the train departing (this is because UK trains allow people without seats to stand if they need to!)

We can look the prices up for you if you like so you know what to expect to pay for these different options for that journey

No, I'm good but thanks. I think because it's 4 of us who really want to sit at table seating, even if the price is somewhat higher, we'll just do it when we're able to. If we lived in the UK and traveled by train more frequently it would be likely that we'd just be doing standard tickets when the price is best. I do appreciate all of the help and insight though. Learned a lot for additional future train travel.

 

[WesternLancer]

No, I'm good but thanks. I think because it's 4 of us who really want to sit at table seating, even if the price is somewhat higher, we'll just do it when we're able to. If we lived in the UK and traveled by train more frequently it would be likely that we'd just be doing standard tickets when the price is best. I do appreciate all of the help and insight though. Learned a lot for additional future train travel.

That’s exactly what I would do if abroad doing a one off journey that I would want to enjoy and might never do again second time.

 

[Sealink]

Depending on when you want to travel, there is a service at 0755 operated by LNER.


You get a complimentary hot breakfast and other refreshments included.

*Unless LNER do their "Edinburgh Festival" menu.

I just checked a random date at the end of July (hopefully representative) and LNER are charging £36.80 per person in First Class, ScotRail (with minimum to no catering) is anything from £67.50 to £88.60

 

[marklyn]

Depending on when you want to travel, there is a service at 0755 operated by LNER.


You get a complimentary hot breakfast and other refreshments included.

*Unless LNER do their "Edinburgh Festival" menu.

I just checked a random date at the end of July (hopefully representative) and LNER are charging £36.80 per person in First Class, ScotRail (with minimum to no catering) is anything from £67.50 to £88.60

Hrm. Good idea. I'll check to see if one train later is LNER. Problem is we don't want to get to Edinburgh too early with lots of luggage and no where to store it. The place we're staying at says check-in at 3 so we want to keep the arrival times close to 3 and not a whole later than 4p.

 

[Iskra]

Hrm. Good idea. I'll check to see if one train later is LNER. Problem is we don't want to get to Edinburgh too early with lots of luggage and no where to store it. The place we're staying at says check-in at 3 so we want to keep the arrival times close to 3 and not a whole later than 4p.

If you contact the hotel, they may be able to store your luggage during the day for you.