15X Fleet future & withdrawal

[MattRat]

I thought the Class 175s to GWR was seeing off the GWR Class 150s. Some as direct replacement, others by freeing up 158/166s to replace them.

There's some routes that can only take a 150, due to short platform length and no SDO

 

[43096]

I thought the Class 175s to GWR was seeing off the GWR Class 150s. Some as direct replacement, others by freeing up 158/166s to replace them.

That is not the intention. The 175s are primarily to replace the remaining HSTs and displace 80x sets back to Paddington services that they were removed from previously.

 

[JonathanH]

I thought the Class 175s to GWR was seeing off the GWR Class 150s.

No, because there are additional services (eg Mid Cornwall Metro) which need more class 150s to operate them.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I thought the Class 175s to GWR was seeing off the GWR Class 150s. Some as direct replacement, others by freeing up 158/166s to replace them.

Maybe partly - I think their primary purpose is to replace the HSTs, no?

 

[Trainman40083]

Maybe partly - I think their primary purpose is to replace the HSTs, no?

Thought there was only a handful of HSTs sets left in service

 

[AlastairFraser]

Thought there was only a handful of HSTs sets left in service

There are, but I think that's more due to technical issues than anything else. GWR are suffering major stock shortages, which is probably the second component justifying the 175 cascade.

 

[YorkshireBear]

There are, but I think that's more due to technical issues than anything else. GWR are suffering major stock shortages, which is probably the second component justifying the 175 cascade.

It also releases the 802s off regional services. That combined with the HSTs and additional Cornwall services absorbs all the 175s.

 

[Iskra]

It would be nice if we could see some Sprinters celebrated by being re-painted into retro liveries before they are withdrawn, as is traditional for well-respected fleets! I’d certainly be up for a Class 158 farewell Railtour too

 

[AlastairFraser]

It also releases the 802s off regional services. That combined with the HSTs and additional Cornwall services absorbs all the 175s.

Indeed. Which is why a battery/4th rail fleet to replace the 165s on the Aylesbury route initially and a resultant cascade to GWR to replace some 150s would be useful.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

185s to Exeter-Waterloo?

I doubt that'll happen - A 9-car 185 each of 3 coaches won't match the capacity of a 159 of the same length. The proposed 12-car battery 450's preferably with 2+2 table seating is the answer!

 

[Brubulus]

I doubt that'll happen - A 9-car 185 each of 3 coaches won't match the capacity of a 159 of the same length. The proposed 12-car battery 450's preferably with 2+2 table seating is the answer!

185s and 159s have the exact same capacity. I'd be amazed if there were no sprinter/MU differentials on the route though.

 

[Iskra]

185s and 159s have the exact same capacity. I'd be amazed if there were no sprinter/MU differentials on the route though.

And the lack of a gangway connection would probably be seen as a backward step. Also a waste of powerful DMU’s designed for hilly routes.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Where will the last 156 service be operated? My money is on Cumbrian Coast being the backwater that it is.

 

[Trainman40083]

Where will the last 156 service be operated? My money is on Cumbrian Coast being the backwater that it is.

I would agree that it will probably be a Northern service

 

[swt_passenger]

And the lack of a gangway connection would probably be seen as a backward step. Also a waste of powerful DMU’s designed for hilly routes.

One of the main reasons stated for removal of the 170s by SWT was they hindered through access on long trains on the Exeter route. On the other hand I thought 170s were much better for dwell times on the Chandlers Ford frequent stopping services.

 

[Trainman40083]

One of the main reasons stated for removal of the 170s by SWT was they hindered through access on long trains on the Exeter route. On the other hand I thought 170s were much better for dwell times on the Chandlers Ford frequent stopping services.

Yet it seemed a waste of a 100mph unit on such a local service.

 

[Andyh82]

But with 158s and our climate getting hotter, with much warmer/hotter spring and summer weather, is it reasonable to expect people to endure the sweatbox conditions of 158s? I don't understand why the air con on 158s has never been properly fixed, and if it can't be fixed, I can't see how it can be justified keeping 158s in service long term, or even short term.

Why can they not fit new air con in the 158s?

I’m no expert but I’d assume modern 2020s air con would take up either the same or less room than the 1990s air con that was originally fitted

I was on a lightly loaded Northern 158 today, one of the refurbished ones with the ironing board style seats and I was having a look around thinking that from a passenger point of view, there is very little difference between them and what a brand new train would look like.

The only difference being the air con and possibly if they’d fitted a PIS that looked a little bit more modern

The 150/155/156 are a completely different story though and do feel ‘old’

 

[Cardiff123]

Why can they not fit new air con in the 158s?

I’m no expert but I’d assume modern 2020s air con would take up either the same or less room than the 1990s air con that was originally fitted

I was on a lightly loaded Northern 158 today, one of the refurbished ones with the ironing board style seats and I was having a look around thinking that from a passenger point of view, there is very little difference between them and what a brand new train would look like.

The only difference being the air con and possibly if they’d fitted a PIS that looked a little bit more modern

The 150/155/156 are a completely different story though and do feel ‘old’

I'm sure I read that the original late 1980s / early 1990s design air con in the 158s was based on CFCs, which were banned across Europe and the UK in 1989, rendering the original air-conditioning fitted in the 158s useless from the start.

Still, 35 years on, I find it hard to believe it's too difficult to find a permanent solution to the abysmal air con in 158s, or to fit an entirely new system.

 

[stevieinselby]

And the lack of a gangway connection would probably be seen as a backward step. Also a waste of powerful DMU’s designed for hilly routes.

As there are a number of trains on the London to Salisbury/Exeter route that split, having non-gangwayed units would be particularly unhelpful. Even without that, it would be a retrograde step.

Yet it seemed a waste of a 100mph unit on such a local service.

If you look at all the routes that are run by 100mph units across the country, there's probably getting on for half of them where the train doesn't have any opportunity to exceed 75mph.
Conwy Valley, anybody?

 

[Energy]

Still, 35 years on, I find it hard to believe it's too difficult to find a permanent solution to the abysmal air con in 158s, or to fit an entirely new system.

Many have had them replaced. SWT had Liebherr systems fitted, but more importantly, had people who could maintain them based at the 159's depot.

 

[43096]

Many have had them replaced. SWT had Liebherr systems fitted, but more importantly, had people who could maintain them based at the 159's depot.

That is the biggest issue. SWT stuck to the manufacturer’s maintenance regime for the Liebherr kit and it showed. Other TOCs didn’t.

 

[The exile]

Hopefully it does. It would be much better for SWR to be an electric-only network

That can be done (almost) at the stroke of a pen. If DfT want to make SWR (or whatever it becomes under GBR) all electric- then all they have to do is transfer the diesel operations to GWR (or whatever it becomes).

 

[Snow1964]

That can be done (almost) at the stroke of a pen. If DfT want to make SWR (or whatever it becomes under GBR) all electric- then all they have to do is transfer the diesel operations to GWR (or whatever it becomes).

Ironically at time of privatisation there was even a Wessex trains that covered a lot of the diesel lines in the area. It later got merged (into what is now GWR). Nowadays SWR diesel services cross GWR services to Portsmouth at Salisbury (without good connection times)

 

[Grecian 1998]

IIRC there was a proposal around 2003 for Exeter - Waterloo to be transferred into the Wessex franchise so that Wessex had a route into London giving it more prestige (ignoring the long stretches of single track). However it was then decided that it was preferable to have a single operator out of Waterloo.

Nowadays SWR diesel services cross GWR services to Portsmouth at Salisbury (without good connection times)

It depends where you're going. If you're going from Exeter to Southampton or Sherborne to Bristol then connections are pretty good. If you're going from Warminster to London Waterloo, then not so much. Connections seem to be best for those travelling on the Salisbury - Exeter section for part of their journey, but less useful for those travelling on other routes.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That can be done (almost) at the stroke of a pen. If DfT want to make SWR (or whatever it becomes under GBR) all electric- then all they have to do is transfer the diesel operations to GWR (or whatever it becomes).

Of course it can, but then you get into transferring depots and rolling stock late in their expected functional operating life etc...
The 450 plan for London - Exeter and potentially the Romsey Rounders makes a lot of sense, and I hope it comes to fruition.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ironically at time of privatisation there was even a Wessex trains that covered a lot of the diesel lines in the area. It later got merged (into what is now GWR). Nowadays SWR diesel services cross GWR services to Portsmouth at Salisbury (without good connection times)

Wessex Trains was a later addition, at the start of privatisation it was Wales & West. Wessex came about when the Welsh bit of Wales & West was split off into part of Wales & Borders.

 

[D365]

Of course it can, but then you get into transferring depots and rolling stock late in their expected functional operating life etc...

Would there be any reason to move the 15x fleet from Salisbury?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Would there be any reason to move the 15x fleet from Salisbury?

Their replacement by the proposed dual mode 450s (and then likely cascade to GWR or export to a poorer country).

 

[Snow1964]

GWR 150s are getting a C6 heavy overhaul and corrosion repairs, but it is unclear if the aluminium body trains (158, 165, 166) can be treated the same as cannot just replace panels of aluminium and weld it to steel underframes in same way

 

[Earle Grey]

Bearing that in mind, the 158s at TfW could go to Northern to send some of their worst 150s to the scrapheap finally, and, if the discontinuous electrification plan on the West of England line proves to be successful, the SWR 158/159s could eliminate most of the 150s

Back in April on Green Signals - Inside Northern Trains, Matt Rice COO suggests that there will be no increase in the 15x fleet as they gear up to introduce new trains to replace them in the next 5 years. Current fleet to be refurbished/maintained in the interim.