Prosecution from WMR for short fare

[WesternLancer]

Update: Turns out I did in fact own a 16-17 railcard at the time, I have proof of this too. I'm sure this will be sufficient evidence against this particular part of the claim

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 May 2025 ==

So that's good - I assume they will accept that those tickets were legitimately discounted if you provide them with proof of the Railcard (I think those railcard's become invalid when you turn 18 years of age - even if the Railcard has not been owned for the full 12 months - so just to check you did not buy tickets with it after your 18th birthday?

Sure, one line more recent is as follows:

XX/XX/21 // Aston - Birmingham New Street // Evening Day Single // 0 // No (Railcard) // Short Journey // £5.80

So are they saying this is a 'short fare' and you travelled further that day? But you are saying you really did take the train Aston to New Street?

If so can you prove it or at least give some plausible reason why you might buy tickets from Aston (eg you visit Aston in order to do xxxx, or you lived near Aston station at the time and can show proof of that)

If you can't support it with some evidence you may simply need to state that it was a legitimate journey but they may not believe you.

 

[LucasT02]

Ok, so - it doesn’t seem they’ve made any errors in conflating the cases.

I can see this. However I struggle to understand their proof of me not doing that specific journey?

 

[AlterEgo]

I can see this. However I struggle to understand their proof of me not doing that specific journey?

They don’t need proof becuase they don’t want to prosecute this matter, but they do suspect it was a short fare in the manner similar to that of the occasion you were caught. They’re adding it to their settlement to prevent a prosecution for the single offence they did catch you for.

 

[LucasT02]

So that's good - I assume they will accept that those tickets were legitimately discounted if you provide them with proof of the Railcard (I think those railcard's become invalid when you turn 18 years of age - even if the Railcard has not been owned for the full 12 months - so just to check you did not buy tickets with it after your 18th birthday?


So are they saying this is a 'short fare' and you travelled further that day? But you are saying you really did take the train Aston to New Street?

If so can you prove it or at least give some plausible reason why you might buy tickets from Aston (eg you visit Aston in order to do xxxx, or you lived near Aston station at the time and can show proof of that)

If you can't support it with some evidence you may simply need to state that it was a legitimate journey but they may not believe you.

Thanks for the response, I can confirm I did buy those tickets with the railcard valid.

As for the other fares, I attend Aston University, and have legitimate reason to get the train from Aston to BNS. I could probably find proof of other reasons of me going to this station too.

 

[WesternLancer]

I can see this. However I struggle to understand their proof of me not doing that specific journey?

This is the problem - they are basically saying 'we don't think you paid the correct fare on that occasion, so we are goign to ask you to pay it now as part of a settlment offer. If you don't want to agree to that we will take you to court and prosecute you for the one occasion we have proof you had the wrong ticket'

They can say this because they know most people would rather not end up in court.

However, we do find that they usually 'play fair' if they think you are being honest with them - so with things you can prove to them that you were on a legit journey, or even provide something fairly plausible to support it - they might accept that for the dates concerned and reduce the sum they are asking for

 

[LucasT02]

This is the problem - they are basically saying 'we don't think you paid the correct fare on that occasion, so we are goign to ask you to pay it now as part of a settlment offer. If you don't want to agree to that we will take you to court and prosecute you for the one occasion we have proof you had the wrong ticket'

They can say this because they know most people would rather not end up in court.

However, we do find that they usually 'play fair' if they think you are being honest with them - so with things you can prove to them that you were on a legit journey, or even provide something fairly plausible to support it - they might accept that for the dates concerned and reduce the sum they are asking for

I understand, my last post is waiting for approval from a mod. But it mentions what I believe will be viable proof for them specific train journeys.

 

[Cuthbert]

I understand, my last post is waiting for approval from a mod. But it mentions what I believe will be viable proof for them specific train journeys.

Not sure with WMR but other ToCs have accepted proof and removed the charge.

 

[WesternLancer]

I understand, my last post is waiting for approval from a mod. But it mentions what I believe will be viable proof for them specific train journeys.

Yes. Now seen it. I guess you can reply with proof of being at the university eg copy of student id card for Aston and state you use that station to attend your studies.

Keep it polite and respectful and good chance they will accept it hopefully.

 

[X-City-WM]

Thanks for the response, I can confirm I did buy those tickets with the railcard valid.

As for the other fares, I attend Aston University, and have legitimate reason to get the train from Aston to BNS. I could probably find proof of other reasons of me going to this station too.

While this sounds like a good, plausible reason, Aston University is a 30-minute walk from Aston Railway Station, but only a 12-minute walk from Birmingham New Street, so you may need to give them a little bit more information about your journeys from AST to BNS.

 

[AlterEgo]

I understand, my last post is waiting for approval from a mod. But it mentions what I believe will be viable proof for them specific train journeys.

As has been pointed out, Aston station is far from the university. Is your contention that, on the occasion you were stopped with a short fare from Aston, you were in fact short faring, but all the other times were legitimate? WMR do know where Aston station is…they work in Birmingham!

I used to park at Aston University and walk into New Street; it’s not far.

You’ve been caught bang to rights; I wouldn’t try arguing about the previous journeys unless you can properly substantiate them. Saying you’d walk 30 minutes to Aston station to take a one stop train for a journey you can walk in 10-12 minutes is not credible.

 

[LucasT02]

Understood, but there's many circumstances why one would go to Aston station. Maybe people like to visit a place near the station, maybe there's nice food in that area. Some other people might not know the area so much to as think Aston station is near Aston University, as daft as it sounds. All these factors weigh up and it's wrong for them to make assumptions that just because one station is nearest that you can't get a train from the station that you want to, inconvenient as it may be.

 

[LucasT02]

As has been pointed out, Aston station is far from the university. Is your contention that, on the occasion you were stopped with a short fare from Aston, you were in fact short faring, but all the other times were legitimate? WMR do know where Aston station is…they work in Birmingham!

I used to park at Aston University and walk into New Street; it’s not far.

You’ve been caught bang to rights; I wouldn’t try arguing about the previous journeys unless you can properly substantiate them. Saying you’d walk 30 minutes to Aston station to take a one stop train for a journey you can walk in 10-12 minutes is not credible.

How do they expect people to substantiate reasons for travelling from a train station they like?

 

[Haywain]

Some other people might not know the area so much to as think Aston station is near Aston University,

That might happen once, maybe, but not on a regular basis.

 

[LucasT02]

That might happen once, maybe, but not on a regular basis.

I don't know, you'd be surprised how many people use the railway and don't know what they're doing. I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here, some reasons are more plausible than others. I get they're an investigation team, but why should people be penalized for no wrongdoing...

 

[AlterEgo]

How do they expect people to substantiate reasons for travelling from a train station they like?

That has to be weighed against the fact your version of events is unlikely. That, namely, you were caught red handed short faring from Aston, you accept you short fared, but all the other Aston short fares were all legitimate and honest. I don’t think I would advance your explanation if I were you, and trying to be too clever with the investigator will just mean they prosecute you for the single offence anyway.

 

[LucasT02]

That has to be weighed against the fact your version of events is unlikely. That, namely, you were caught red handed short faring from Aston, you accept you short fared, but all the other Aston short fares were all legitimate and honest. I don’t think I would advance your explanation if I were you, and trying to be too clever with the investigator will just mean they prosecute you for the single offence anyway.

Fair enough, if it sounds unlikely then so be it. Interested to know though what may happen if you were to question against the evidence that they've got, if they've only asked for evidence from yourself for the journeys?

 

[WesternLancer]

Interested to know though what may happen if you were to question against the evidence that they've got, if they've only asked for evidence from yourself for the journeys?

well that discussion would not happen because the only time they might need to engage with it would be in court and in court they will only be talking about the one incident they caught you bang to rights on.

The choice is pay the settlement they are offering or deal with the one incident in court

They don't actually want to penalise people for things they have not done, but also they are not going to spend time discussing things with people 'giving them BS' to use a phrase.

 

[AlterEgo]

Fair enough, if it sounds unlikely then so be it. Interested to know though what may happen if you were to question against the evidence that they've got, if they've only asked for evidence from yourself for the journeys?

They don't need evidence. They aren't prosecuting you for those offences; what they are doing is charging you for what they believe are all the other times you did exactly the same thing. If you argue the toss with them they'll prosecute for the single time you got caught; you don't hold the cards here.

If they wanted to, they could also bring, on top of that, a civil claim for the other fares. You're like a guy who's been arrested for shoplifting a computer keyboard "yes officer you caught me leaving the shop, it's a fair cop, I'll come quietly" and then they look inside your living room and there are fifty other identical computer keyboards there. I mean really.

A County Court, if the TOC decides on a civil claim, decides only on balance of probabilities (that is, is something *more likely to be true or not*) rather than a criminal standard of proof (sure, beyond reasonable doubt). If your explanation is you travelled to Birmingham New Street from Aston University by walking 30 minutes to travel another 7 minutes, one stop on the train using a ticket you paid for, instead of just walking 12 minutes for free...and you also got caught red handed short faring in exactly the same way...I wouldn't fancy your chances. I don't think it's reasonable to ask people to believe that.

I don't know, you'd be surprised how many people use the railway and don't know what they're doing. I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here, some reasons are more plausible than others. I get they're an investigation team, but why should people be penalized for no wrongdoing...

Please don't try to insult the investigators' intelligence. You were caught.

 

[Hadders]

The important point tofor @LucasT02 to remember here is they were caught bang to rights - WMR are entitled to prosecute this case in the Magistrates Court and if this happens they will win. @LucasT02 would have to pay a fine, surcharge, WMR court costs and compensation for the fare avoided on the occasion they were caught. They would also have a criminal conviction.

As an alternative to court, WMR will settle the case if @LucasT02 co-operates with their investigation and pays the fares where short faring is suspected, plus an admin fee. If a settlement is offered and paid there is no court case and no criminal record.

I know what I would be doing in the circumstances....

 

[LucasT02]

Update:
They have removed the charges for tickets where I did have an active railcard at the time. This bought the cost down to £340 (incl. the admin fee) - which is a significantly more amount than just buying a train ticket in the first place. It's definitely given me an insight into the data they can get from companies such as Trainline etc. and it puts me off using them from a data protection standpoint if I'm honest.

I'd like to see what advancements WMT put in place going forward. I think if they want to stop this happening completely they should have more barriers in place along the lines to prevent this full stop. That's just my take though.

I understand what is meant by the fact that they don't need evidence. But I also think it's wrong to assume, so I guess we won't be able to find any common ground.

Thanks for the help on this thread, it's been incredibly useful!

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for updating us. This is a decent outcome in the circumstances.

On a more general point people are generally completely unaware of the digital footprint they leave. There are also better train ticket retailers to use than Trainline - they are never normally the cheapest option, despite their advertising claims!

 

[Haywain]

and it puts me off using them from a data protection standpoint if I'm honest.

You can never consider your data to be protected if you are committing criminal offences.