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Cardiff Central redevelopment plans

Rhydgaled

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You're not alone. I've been worried about those architects' drawings that proposed widespread destruction of the listed building for years and I'm glad the worst of it seems to have been dropped. Still some vandalism in these latest plans though with the end walls of some of the platform buildings proposed to be knocked down and replaced by modern glass. Yuck.
Creating adequate waiting facilities on the platforms is pretty important for the usability of the station.
I agree that waiting facilities are important, but I wouldn't say they need to be on the platforms. For example, I don't remember there being any buildings on platforms 2 to 4 at Swansea High Street station, just the canopy. Back to Cardiff, and I'm rather disappointed that the new platform 0 building and new south entrance don't seem to contain much in the way of passenger facilities. I think I would have concentrated waiting room and toilet facilties for the whole station in the new-build sections, reducing pressure on the platform facilities. Even so, by the sound of the Heritage Statement document included with the listed building consent application, there is very little of the GWR interiors left in the platform buildings, so I've nothing against most of the proposed internal remodelling to provide larger waiting rooms. They could have done that without impacting the GWR exteriors of the platform buildings, but chose to knock down GWR walls and replace with glass.

Actually, they may have made the suituation worse. The renders show passenger information displays in the western subway - surely that will cause people to stand around looking at them adding to congestion!
As opposed to the existing screens?
It's some time since I've been to Cardiff, but I don't remember there being electronic displays in the subways, and they're not there on TfW's 3D station tour either. For the avoidance of doubt, these are the displays I'm talking about:
WEST_SUBWAY-comment.jpg

At least one option would have destroyed the historically valuable subway tiles
Destroyed? Or removed for preservation elsewhere?
Where could they have moved them to? Those tiles would be very hard to find a suitable new home for. Not many places will have a long enough space with platforms grouped 1&2, 3 to 5 and 6&7.
 
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AdamWW

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It's some time since I've been to Cardiff, but I don't remember there being electronic displays in the subways, and they're not there on TfW's 3D station tour either. For the avoidance of doubt, these are the displays I'm talking about:

Unless I am imagining things, there are now screens in the subway near to each set of stairs giving departures for the relevant platforms. But I think they are relatively recent - they are the new full colour style that was recently introduced on the main concourse and I don't recall anything in the subway before.
 
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Unless I am imagining things, there are now screens in the subway near to each set of stairs giving departures for the relevant platforms. But I think they are relatively recent - they are the new full colour style that was recently introduced on the main concourse and I don't recall anything in the subway before.
I'm pretty sure there are as well. They're actually quite useful
 

Rhydgaled

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I did say it had been some time since I was last there. Having thought about it a bit more, it was probably about 2 years ago. I went out to try to get a ride on the 769s before they were withdrawn and sample the 231s (don't think the 756s had entered service yet) and I don't think I've been to Cardiff since.
 

WAB

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I agree that waiting facilities are important, but I wouldn't say they need to be on the platforms. For example, I don't remember there being any buildings on platforms 2 to 4 at Swansea High Street station, just the canopy. Back to Cardiff, and I'm rather disappointed that the new platform 0 building and new south entrance don't seem to contain much in the way of passenger facilities. I think I would have concentrated waiting room and toilet facilties for the whole station in the new-build sections, reducing pressure on the platform facilities. Even so, by the sound of the Heritage Statement document included with the listed building consent application, there is very little of the GWR interiors left in the platform buildings, so I've nothing against most of the proposed internal remodelling to provide larger waiting rooms. They could have done that without impacting the GWR exteriors of the platform buildings, but chose to knock down GWR walls and replace with glass.
People want to be near where their trains will arrive, not a multiple-minute walk across a concourse, through ticket barriers, through a narrow subway, up the stairs then a fair distance along a platform. This is particularly the case at stations with a lot of passengers changing trains and a lot of through trains with limited dwell time.

I also think you're overstating the value of the end walls of the platform buildings. Equipment cases, decaying phone box remains, and battered doors don't outweigh more welcoming customer facilities IMO.
 

Rhydgaled

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People want to be near where their trains will arrive, not a multiple-minute walk across a concourse, through ticket barriers, through a narrow subway, up the stairs then a fair distance along a platform. This is particularly the case at stations with a lot of passengers changing trains and a lot of through trains with limited dwell time.
If you're changing trains and have got a long wait, chances are you won't know what platform your next train will use anyway. A central large waiting room (inside the ticket barriers - I agree you don't want to make people pass through them any more than necessary - Birmingham New Street would be so much better if there wasn't the hastle of barriers if you go up the wrong set of stairs from the platform), with ample toilet facilities adjacent, would be useful in such cases. Then, a few minutes before your train is due, you head up to the platform (hopefully there won't be any last-minute platform alterations from one group of patforms to another, but in that case you wouldn't be any better off if you had waited on the platform anyway). By only having one or two trainloads of passengers needing to wait on the same platform together, and probably not for very long, the platform waiting rooms don't need to be massive (but would benefit from interior alternations to make them as large as possible without damaging GWR walls)*.

Last time I used them, the toilets on the platforms at Cardiff Central were awful; far too cramped and fairly poor quality. Is there really enough room on the platforms to provide decent toilet facilities? I'm not convinced, so am disapointed there aren't large numbers of new toilets proposed in the new buildings proposed behind platforms 0 and 8. As with waiting rooms, these want to be inside the barriers (I would rather not have barriers at all and ensure full check tickets on-board the trains instead, but accept that probably isn't going to be practical on Metro services and the Metro is too closely integrated with mainline services in Cardiff to make seperate Metro platforms (with barriers) possible) and as close to the entrance to the subways as possible. Given the distance of platform 0 from the rest of the station, I think two lots of toilets plus large waiting rooms are needed; one at concourse level in what TfW appear to be calling the 'West Wing' or 'Fish Jetty' (currently M&S I think, though I've never been in there) and the other (again at concourse level) in the new building behind platform 8.

* note that there doesn't appear to be any waiting rooms on platform 8 in the new plans

I also think you're overstating the value of the end walls of the platform buildings. Equipment cases, decaying phone box remains, and battered doors don't outweigh more welcoming customer facilities IMO.
I didn't say anything about phone boxes and equipment cases. Most of them are presumably 1990s (or more-recent) additions and if those are non-functional and can be (re)moved then go ahead and do that - but I assume they are functional or they wouldn't be there. The end walls of the platform buildings themselves are perhaps, on their own, not of any great significance. However, what whoever drew up these plans appears to have overlooked is the reason that much of Cardiff Central is listed; completeness. As a whole, the station is worth more than the sum of it's parts - there's a historic character to it. It's not quite Birmingham Moor Street, but it's good. Put a modern glass wall in there as that render does and the spell is broken; from the angles you can see the glass wall, that historic character would be gone. It just feels wrong.

As I said, I've nothing against re-arranging the relatively recent interiors - for example this image from the 3D tour:
3D-Tour1.jpg

The phone box presumably works (since there is wayfinding signage highlighting it) but it's not in keeping with the station so if it doesn't work get rid of it. As for the rest, you could move the ladies' toilet somewhere else, replace the three panes of frosted glass (one in the toilet door and two above it) with clear glass and put a large waiting room inside the door and I would have no complaints. I don't know whether the style of door is original, but if not you might be able to tweak the design of it to make the window a bit bigger while still being in-keeping.
 

AdamWW

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If you're changing trains and have got a long wait, chances are you won't know what platform your next train will use anyway.

Cardiff has fairly fixed platform usage so, except where platform 0 is involved and to some extent platform 7, any regular passenger will know which island to be on for a given destination without even having to look it up.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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Having gone through the very long and interesting heritage impact statement, I have to say I'm very impressed by the sensitivity of the proposed interventions.

I do have some sympathy with Rhydgaled's quibbles, but I think he has accepted that they are pretty minor compared to the wanton destruction of some previous schemes.

The one beef I have with the scheme is the decision to opt for an an entirely new style of frontage for the southern entrance. Nothing of worth is being destroyed, and it's entirely a matter of personal taste, but I would have preferred a southern facade more in sympathy with the northern entrance rather than one designed to contrast with it.
 
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I quite like the southern facade, it's different and better than some of the ultra modern designs seen before. I'm not very impressed with the lack of toilets in the new build sections and the lack of cover to the proposed tram platforms. The latter may change as that scheme is planned I guess.

I wonder what sort of annual passenger numbers this scheme is designed for? I'm assuming not the 40m+ future passenger forecasts that were projected before Covid, this seems like a tweak to capacity and not much more.
 

LlanishenBull

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Yes, there are already screens in the subway, and they're excellent.
They provide very useful information. Changing trains last week I was able to easily see my train (to Holyhead) wasn't scheduled to depart on platform 1 or 2 as usual. I went to the screen by the northern barriers to see what was happening, it was leaving from platform 0. If I'd wandered up to platforms 1 and 2 it may have taken me a minute or two to work out where I needed to be, risking me missing my train.
 

tigermonstera

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Cardiff Council's Planning Committee will meet on June 5th (see here), with both Cardiff Central Enhancement Program planning applications on the agenda. Both applications are recommended for approval.
 

Last Hurrah

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Cardiff are hosting games in the UEFA European Football Championship starting 9th June’28

Having experienced rail problems more than two decades ago when hosting the 1999 Rugby World Cup, there doesn’t seem to be any urgency in delivering this project

Meanwhile, the clock is ticking . . .
 
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Cardiff are hosting games in the UEFA European Football Championship starting 9th June’28

Having experienced rail problems more than two decades ago when hosting the 1999 Rugby World Cup, there doesn’t seem to be any urgency in delivering this project

Meanwhile, the clock is ticking . . .
It was reported that enabling works would start later this year, that's lightning fast for a Welsh rail project.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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It was reported that enabling works would start later this year, that's lightning fast for a Welsh rail project.
From my perspective Welsh rail projects seem lightning fast compared to those over the border.

Metro more or less done from weird idea to completion in fifteen years.

Tap on/ Tap off done and dusted.

Total replacement of fleet, just about there.
 
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From my perspective Welsh rail projects seem lightning fast compared to those over the border.

Metro more or less done from weird idea to completion in fifteen years.

Tap on/ Tap off done and dusted.

Total replacement of fleet, just about there.
You're right overall but there are projects which have been moving at a glacial pace, i.e. Bay line. Also the new tram line has come into being very quickly but now there's a 2 1/2 year wait for work to start.
 

Topological

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From my perspective Welsh rail projects seem lightning fast compared to those over the border.

Metro more or less done from weird idea to completion in fifteen years.

Tap on/ Tap off done and dusted.

Total replacement of fleet, just about there.
Many of these were TfW rather than being projects on National Rail line infrastructure.

As well as the 398s, other questions of TfW include:

Standard Premium / 1st on the 197s?
The Mk4 fleet reliability? Ignoring the recent accident with HD02, there have been very few days in which 5 Mk4 sets completed the full 5 diagrams (Although prior to the accident there had been almost 4 days out of 5 for a couple of weeks).

Cardiff Central strikes me as more of a national project than regional. Although I do concede the lack of ambition with the changes to the station itself mean that much of the project is away from the tracks.
 

Last Hurrah

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For the volume of people using the station on event days, the existing subways are no longer suitable

A wide styled bridge over the tracks accessing all platforms similar to Reading would be a meaningful solution which can to be used while utilising the existing subways for exiting passengers

Whilst they are doing that perhaps create one or even two west facing bay platforms with the increasing number of local services

As to the Southern entrance facade, that’s a subjective decision as it is some distance from the northern entrance

St Pancras, London Bridge, Birmingham New St, Manchester Victoria, Reading have all had significant amounts spent in modernising them - Cardiff needs to be modernised in a similar manner having waited patiently for its turn in the queue
 

AdamWW

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St Pancras, London Bridge, Birmingham New St, Manchester Victoria, Reading have all had significant amounts spent in modernising them - Cardiff needs to be modernised in a similar manner having waited patiently for its turn in the queue

Apparently the government is about to anounce billions in regional spending. Maybe in that there will be a bit more money for Cardiff?
 

tigermonstera

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News from this morning: The planning committee has voted to approve both applications.

From the minutes of the meeting:
25/00645/PRAP – CATHAYS

Cardiff Central Railway Station, Central Square, Cathays, Cardiff

Construction of New Building at Platform 0, External Modifications to West Wing, New Southern Entrance and Two HV Substations.

The application was granted subject to conditions.
 
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tigermonstera

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Thank you for reopening the thread — WalesOnline are reporting that the project will get the go-ahead next week:
The business case for the project was submitted back in the spring to the Department for Transport.

An announcement next week is expected to see it moving to the delivery phase.

The work is expected to be completed ahead of the Principality Stadium hosting the opening game of the men's Euro 2028 football tournament.
(Link)
 
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We can expect lots of work at Cardiff Central next year with this and the Cardiff Bay tram link both starting. Will be a massive change to the south side of the station, looking forward to seeing it develop.
 

tigermonstera

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Thanks for sharing - when do we reckon we'll start to see actual work being done at the station?
The most recent timeline I'm aware of is from March (link), but doesn't go into detail on start dates. The Cardiff Central FAQ states that:
The enabling works at the station are expected to begin later in 2025 and we’re aiming to deliver the majority of the enhancements by 2028. The delivery of the scheme is subject to planning and full business case approval. We’re working closely with Cardiff Council on the planning process. We’ll keep you updated on the progress of the scheme.
The Central side of Crossrail is likely to happen at a similar time, given that this article in the New Civil Engineer says that:
In  Spring 2026,  enabling highway and public realm works will commence, while the start of construction of the tram track and associated platforms at Cardiff Central station will take place in late 2026. Completion of all infrastructure works will follow, with the asset becoming operational by mid-2028, fuelled by the involvement of Cardiff’s Principality Stadium in the Euro 2028 football championships.

I would imagine that the new Car Park opening will be a deciding factor in when major works can start.
 
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Smwrff

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Some very interesting snippets in the CCR Minutes given above, which show a staged completion from mid-2027, although the overall program already seems to be behind schedule by 6 months.....

And the interfaces diagram is interesting...especially as it shows the outline scope of Network Rail Masterplan....but which does not seem aligned with Southern Entrance design....
 

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