Leeds station improvement updates

[YorksLad12]

From the satellite view, I don't really understand how moving the track would work - it looks like each track that you move will have further knock-on effects right across the station! If that is the plan, obviously I'm missing something! Maybe the tracks for P15/16/17 are actually a bit further apart presently than they really need to be for clearances, or something like that?

If you're on a train on P17, a departing TPE service from P16 certainly feels close.

I was there also there yesterday. Very helpful and wide ranging discussion I wish I'd recorded. Slewing tracks just enough to allow 17 to be widened and extending tracks further to allow trains from the Sheffield direction to enter the station without crossing others. There's a new bridge to cross the station with better lifts.

Like YorksLad12 I'd really like to have seen specific plans and mock ups but they may be available when it gets specifically authorised. Like all railway projects it's not yet a done deal although work could start by the end of 2025.

It's going to be very disruptive for rail users and those operating and using businesses around Granary Wharf. Whether they can bring any materials in by canal is under consideration - maybe a token barge for PR reasons?

We must have spoken to different people! A new bridge wasn't on the cards, just a wider circulation area. It's all staying within the current station envelope though.

Southern Entrance was built by floating things up the river from Water Lane (the bit beyond Asda), so who knows? While I'd like to see drawings I think I'd rather see a project plan. I still think they might do the work during a TPE closure, and there's too much to do in a Christmas closure; you might be able to do the platform work and track slewing but not the lift-moving element. In that case, it might be better to do the lift first so that you only lose P17 for a while, not 16 & 17 at the same time (the existing lift doesn't need to be fully decommissioned at the same time).

 

[johntea]

The amount of minutes of my life wasted on a train making excellent progress only to come to a screeching halt near that building merchant as you approach Platform 17…if they can knock something up to improve that it will be brilliant!

 

[yorksrob]

The amount of minutes of my life wasted on a train making excellent progress only to come to a screeching halt near that building merchant as you approach Platform 17…if they can knock something up to improve that it will be brilliant!

Oh yes, they could make a film "Engine Shed Junction" from all of our experiences waiting for platform 17 !

 

[Killingworth]

If you're on a train on P17, a departing TPE service from P16 certainly feels close.


We must have spoken to different people! A new bridge wasn't on the cards, just a wider circulation area. It's all staying within the current station envelope though.

Southern Entrance was built by floating things up the river from Water Lane (the bit beyond Asda), so who knows? While I'd like to see drawings I think I'd rather see a project plan. I still think they might do the work during a TPE closure, and there's too much to do in a Christmas closure; you might be able to do the platform work and track slewing but not the lift-moving element. In that case, it might be better to do the lift first so that you only lose P17 for a while, not 16 & 17 at the same time (the existing lift doesn't need to be fully decommissioned at the same time).

There are clearly overlapping plans needed for all the projects around Leeds, desired but as yet unfunded. Ordsall chord came up in our conversation. One of several components that might have worked better if had all been delivered. Which bits will get done, when?

The overall aim is to service twice the current passenger numbers. At the speed of many recent projects we may need to be servicing more than twice as many again before they're complete.

Part of the overall work around Leeds includes increasing the number of tracks entering the station. Inevitably several components of the plans overlap so phasing them all together should reduce both costs and disruption. The fear has to be that they'll not be programmed together but piecemeal as funds are, and aren't, made available.

 

[Halish Railway]

I take it that there are no plans for an approach to Leeds from the Hallam line to remove the interaction with westbound TPE trains.

The overall aim is to service twice the current passenger numbers. At the speed of many recent projects we may need to be servicing more than twice as many again before they're complete.

I don’t see passenger numbers for services using the Hallam line can be doubled whilst they’re restricted to using platform platform 17 at Leeds. Certainly this scheme is a step in the right direction, but it is no panacea.

 

[Killingworth]

I take it that there are no plans for an approach to Leeds from the Hallam line to remove the interaction with westbound TPE trains.

I don’t see passenger numbers for services using the Hallam line can be doubled whilst they’re restricted to using platform platform 17 at Leeds. Certainly this scheme is a step in the right direction, but it is no panacea.

The difficulty here is that there are over lapping schemes and priorities. Old railway land has been sold off (sometimes effectively given away to avoid liability to maintain it) and negotiations are necessary to buy bits back before they're lost forever and get built on. The areas may be small but can be vital when wanting to restore those extra tracks and reduce interactions

 

[yorksrob]

Talking of Leeds, why are all the escalators out of use all the time these days ?

About time they got their fingers out their arses.

 

[YorksLad12]

I take it that there are no plans for an approach to Leeds from the Hallam line to remove the interaction with westbound TPE trains.

Is there a list of projects somewhere? If not... should we create one?

Definitely happening: New Station Street, station forecourt and P16/17 changes.
Assumed to be happening: demolition of accommodation building (though I don't know the hows and whys).
Speculative: everything else, really, including Route G into platforms 16 & 17 with or without a new viaduct.

That sort of thing. I know we've had the Leeds Integrated Station Masterplan but that's 10 years old.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Assumed to be happening: demolition of accommodation building (though I don't know the hows and whys).

I believe asbestos may have something to do with it!

 

[Ben427]

Is there a list of projects somewhere? If not... should we create one?

Definitely happening: New Station Street, station forecourt and P16/17 changes.
Assumed to be happening: demolition of accommodation building (though I don't know the hows and whys).
Speculative: everything else, really, including Route G into platforms 16 & 17 with or without a new viaduct.

That sort of thing. I know we've had the Leeds Integrated Station Masterplan but that's 10 years old.

The TfN document from last year covers alot of things if you dig around

Agenda for Rail North Committee on Tuesday, 3rd September, 2024, 10.30 am

 

[Iskra]

A lot of escalators out of action again at Leeds Station recently.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, what is going on with them. Are they just due replacement ?

 

[D6130]

Talking of Leeds, why are all the escalators out of use all the time these days ?

About time they got their fingers out their arses.

Well they are now more than 25 years old.... manufactured by Köne in Keighley and transported to Leeds by rail on flatbed wagons hauled by class 56 locomotives. I remember seeing them sitting in the siding at Keighley.

 

[yorksrob]

Well they are now more than 25 years old.... manufactured by Köne in Keighley and transported to Leeds by rail on flatbed wagons hauled by class 56 locomotives. I remember seeing them sitting in the siding at Keighley.

I did wonder. I remember reading that LU's have to be replaced regularly.

 

[xotGD]

The Batch'd cake stall has been upgraded. Now complete with a video screen.

 

[alexl92]

We must have spoken to different people! A new bridge wasn't on the cards, just a wider circulation area. It's all staying within the current station envelope though.

I’ve been told by someone who should know that a third footbridge is planned to cross the middle of the station.

 

[Killingworth]

I’ve been told by someone who should know that a third footbridge is planned to cross the middle of the station.

In my post 1320 I mentioned thiis after speaking to the consultation team beside the current lift to 16/17. What was lacking was a plan or any illustrations to show the intended work. The present lift has to go to improve circulation in that area. A new lift must go nearer the middle.

 

[YorksLad12]

I’ve been told by someone who should know that a third footbridge is planned to cross the middle of the station.

Struggling to see how that fits in with everything else. A replacement for the eastern footbridge is all that's really needed, with passenger lifts. Anything else would start to interfere with platform widths, plus the vehicles that run out from the stores delivery off P8/P7 (which is already a bit awkward).

I believe asbestos may have something to do with it!

Careful demolition then

 

[Halifaxlad]

Struggling to see how that fits in with everything else. A replacement for the eastern footbridge is all that's really needed, with passenger lifts. Anything else would start to interfere with platform widths, plus the vehicles that run out from the stores delivery off P8/P7 (which is already a bit awkward).

Perhaps a new footbridge is being built as a replacement as I doubt it is possible to build lifts up to that bridge that doesnt have lifts.

 

[Ben427]

Struggling to see how that fits in with everything else. A replacement for the eastern footbridge is all that's really needed, with passenger lifts. Anything else would start to interfere with platform widths, plus the vehicles that run out from the stores delivery off P8/P7 (which is already a bit awkward).


Careful demolition then

The eastern footbridge even if upgraded doesn't do much for footfall and flow, especially because it's too far away from most platforms to be much use.

Will be interesting to see what is announced after the CSR and infrastructure review

 

[YorksLad12]

The eastern footbridge even if upgraded doesn't do much for footfall and flow, especially because it's too far away from most platforms to be much use.

Will be interesting to see what is announced after the CSR and infrastructure review

Not really. The western footbridge is no use for platforms 0-8 - nine platforms. The eastern footbridge is useful for platform interchange (e.g. from an XC service to a local Northern one), as all of the northbound services use that side of the station. It's useless if you have luggage, a pushchair or mobility issues, but I've often swum against the tide going up the stairs when the hoards are swarming down both sides of the steps instead of sticking to one. If it was doubled in width and had lifts, and was signposted better, people would use it more.

But yes, interesting to hear what is announced. I emailed someone about the station parking four weeks ago (no answer yet) because it's non-stop now with the car horns. Hoping there's money to sort that out...

 

[Ben427]

Not really. The western footbridge is no use for platforms 0-8 - nine platforms. The eastern footbridge is useful for platform interchange (e.g. from an XC service to a local Northern one), as all of the northbound services use that side of the station. It's useless if you have luggage, a pushchair or mobility issues, but I've often swum against the tide going up the stairs when the hoards are swarming down both sides of the steps instead of sticking to one. If it was doubled in width and had lifts, and was signposted better, people would use it more.

But yes, interesting to hear what is announced. I emailed someone about the station parking four weeks ago (no answer yet) because it's non-stop now with the car horns. Hoping there's money to sort that out...

Western footbridge is useful for all transpennine traffic, and also for XC as well. The eastern one is for most people the "wrong" way to exit the station


As long as the CSR and infrastructure review doesn't cancel everything then it should become evident soon.

There's a reason why a new footbridge is preferred over an upgrade to the eastern footbridge. Pedflow etc is all modelled for these schemes of this type.

 

[londonmidland]

It seems hit and miss whether the new white LED screens here on the platforms display platform information for that particular platform or not.

It’ll just say ‘Please check timetable for services’ if it doesn’t.

 

[YorksLad12]

Western footbridge is useful for all transpennine traffic, and also for XC as well. The eastern one is for most people the "wrong" way to exit the station


As long as the CSR and infrastructure review doesn't cancel everything then it should become evident soon.

There's a reason why a new footbridge is preferred over an upgrade to the eastern footbridge. Pedflow etc is all modelled for these schemes of this type.

Yes, I get the pedflow thing - we looked at it for Southern Entrance (and in the end decided not to reverse the escalators).

My point in that it would be difficult/awkward to build a new, centre footbridge because of the lack of platform space. The eastern footbridge is a bit out of the way, but reversing the stairwells to platforms 9-15 would be difficult, especially with lifts to fit in. *Widening* the existing footbridge makes sense; it's very narrow when swimming against the flow, as I know from experience.

 

[Ben427]

I think fundamentally the issue is upgrading the eastern footbridge probably wouldn't do much to relieve the pinch points the station currently and in the future faces around the western end, especially looking ahead to the future.

 

[GingerSte]

If it were to happen, would this hypothetical footbridge need lifts? All platforms currently have step free access from the eastern footbridge, as mentioned already. Putting in additional lifts on each platform feels like a waste.

I'm assuming at this point that the new bridge would be just to help with pedestrian flow, rather than to institute a one-way system. If it were one way, then I would see the need for lifts.

(Apologies if this has been asked and answered already.)

 

[YorksLad12]

If it were to happen, would this hypothetical footbridge need lifts? All platforms currently have step free access from the eastern footbridge, as mentioned already. Putting in additional lifts on each platform feels like a waste.

I'm assuming at this point that the new bridge would be just to help with pedestrian flow, rather than to institute a one-way system. If it were one way, then I would see the need for lifts.

(Apologies if this has been asked and answered already.)

You meant western, I assume? Yes they do, but if you arrive at 11D or similar, it's a bit of a trek to the slowest lifts in the world, and you get to the escalators first. Then you have to slightly double back on yourself to reach the gate line. Watching people hoik luggage up and down the eastern footbridge steps shows (to me) that there's a need for something at that end too.

No-one would follow a one-way system. I'm not going to go to P7 via the western footbridge, not P17 via the eastern! Plus, there's the LNER unit on P8 every hour to consider.

 

[YorksLad12]

You meant western, I assume? Yes they do, but if you arrive at 11D or similar, it's a bit of a trek to the slowest lifts in the world, and you get to the escalators first. Then you have to slightly double back on yourself to reach the gate line. Watching people hoik luggage up and down the eastern footbridge steps shows (to me) that there's a need for something at that end too.

No-one would follow a one-way system. I'm not going to go to P7 via the western footbridge, not P17 via the eastern! Plus, there's the LNER unit on P8 every hour to consider.

Small update: the whole of the Princes Exchange car park was fenced off this afternoon. If I'm lucky they're going to convert it to a short-stay or PHV pick-up point, to reduce the amount of 'hornage' disturbing the peace. Probably not though...

 

[thejuggler]

After managing to avoid the pick up area at the station for quite a few years (last time it took me 30 minutes to queue due to roadworks) I had reason to do so last week.

It is still a mess and I can't see it ever getting better. So confusing over where you can and can't stop to pick up and exiting is even more confusing, but after looking at Google Earth I think I know why.

The drop off area in what was the old car park circulates the wrong way for the majority of traffic dropping off, why it operates anticlockwise in a country with RHD vehicles is a mystery.

 

[Ben427]

After managing to avoid the pick up area at the station for quite a few years (last time it took me 30 minutes to queue due to roadworks) I had reason to do so last week.

It is still a mess and I can't see it ever getting better. So confusing over where you can and can't stop to pick up and exiting is even more confusing, but after looking at Google Earth I think I know why.

The drop off area in what was the old car park circulates the wrong way for the majority of traffic dropping off, why it operates anticlockwise in a country with RHD vehicles is a mystery.

I expect it's because if it operated clockwise then the queue would lead to even more people dropped off closer to the wetherspoons entrance than they already do, causing more traffic snarlups.

The biggest problem with the PUDO, aside from the rush caused by London trains (if you avoid these peaks its nowhere near as bad) is Uber drivers waiting in the drop off area for ages, and often refusing to take any jobs unless it's a premium ride. There needs to be enforcement about the waiting times.