Potential new West London Orbital route

[Questaware]

Tfl have received the detailed plans from Mott McDonald.

This You Tube video presents this.

 

[eh_oh]

Where is the actual FOI request with the document?

 

[Dstock7080]

I don’t see the detailed plans from Mott McDonald in the video?

 

[greatkingrat]

Tfl have received the detailed plans from Mott McDonald.

This You Tube video presents this.

No it doesn't, it presents your crayon ideas.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Another You Tube video on the West London Orbital (WLO) Railway has appeared this month

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9xInvVNqWM

West London Orbital Railway Progress and Feasibility Presentation by David Mansfield, Programme Engineering Manager, London Overground Projects at the Permanent Way Institution London Section meeting (Hybrid) on 12 March 2025

The presentation document is at the following link

https://www.thepwi.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/West-London-Orbital-Railway_D-Mansfield.pdf

WLO route
• TfL is working jointly with the West London Alliance of boroughs on developing the WLO scheme
• The scheme has four core objectives focused on:
1) Enhancing orbital public transport connectivity
2) Enabling and optimising the delivery of new homes and jobs
3) Enhancing public transport capacity to relieve pressure on existing corridors
4) Delivering wider economic, environmental and social benefits, reducing inequalities
• We have been working with Network Rail who have undertaken timetable assessment, traction power modelling and internal sponsorship activities for the scheme

WLO would deliver a substantial increase in public transport connectivity in west London
• An extra half a million people can reach Old Oak Common within an hour
• Substantial increase in public transport accessibility improving scale, rate and value of development
• Reduced public transport crowding, particularly on radial routes

 

[JonathanH]

Another You Tube video on the West London Orbital Railway has appeared this month.

An interesting presentation setting out the issues. Somewhat amazed that this might actually happen but guess that there are still a lot of hurdles to get through yet.

One slightly unfortunate bit of the plans is not having an easy link to Ealing, but it seems to have a role in passenger dispersion from Old Oak Common, so maybe those connections can be made there.

 

[gravitystorm]

I thought it was a great presentation (aside from the unfortunate sound quality) and here's hoping it gets the go-ahead.

But ... the timelines! Even if the all funding is agreed, permission granted on schedule, and everything else runs to plan, then it will be 2034 before it's ready for passengers (see video at 46:06). This is for adding passenger services to an existing set of railways, with no additional land required or houses being compulsory purchased or anything else of that scale. It seems incredible that such seemly self-contained projects run at such a glacial pace.

I don't mean to criticise the project team here, of course. They are playing with the cards they've been dealt. It's the wider systems of planning, on both sides of the railway boundary, that seem to have been designed to make even the smallest changes almost impossible to achieve.

 

[SynthD]

Some points from Mansfield video that railwaysceptic linked. This looks like a pdf of the presentation

https://www.thepwi.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/West-London-Orbital-Railway_D-Mansfield.pdf

A north facing bay at Old Oak Common Lane, not yet decided which side this will be. There are well advanced plans of the two options (in a public PDF?). This is for extra Hendon-OOCL services.

Wood Lane level crossing in Hounslow (east of Isleworth station) is now(?) a concern. This may be because WLO is no longer an X but a Y, all southbound trains will go to Hounslow.

Some sidings will be made north of Old Oak Common Lane station, on the west side, north of the canal, south of the WCML. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place//@51.5301143,-0.2478009,344m Further sidings at Wembley C.

The extra lines of the four tracking of Acton Wells Junction looks like it is only for from northeast to southeast, ie Mildmay only.

 

[Meerkat]

Is closing Bollo Level Crossing without a road alternative really going to fly? Would seem guaranteed to lead to local opposition.

 

[Bald Rick]

But ... the timelines! Even if the all funding is agreed, permission granted on schedule, and everything else runs to plan, then it will be 2034 before it's ready for passengers (see video at 46:06). This is for adding passenger services to an existing set of railways, with no additional land required or houses being compulsory purchased or anything else of that scale. It seems incredible that such seemly self-contained projects run at such a glacial pace.

My bold. There is additional land required, and probably compulsory purchase - or at least the project will need to plan on the basis of compulosry purchase to cover the risk that the current owners of the land required are not ”willing sellers”. Certainly an Order under the Transport and Works Act is required, and from where they are now in the process that is at least three years away.

 

[gravitystorm]

My bold. There is additional land required, and probably compulsory purchase - or at least the project will need to plan on the basis of compulosry purchase to cover the risk that the current owners of the land required are not ”willing sellers”. Certainly an Order under the Transport and Works Act is required, and from where they are now in the process that is at least three years away.

Oh, my bad, I didn't notice that (or it wasn't mentioned) during the presentation. They did focus on how they had rearranged the turnbacks at Hounslow to avoid the need for any land take there, so it must be somewhere else on the route.

 

[Chris Butler]

- or at least the project will need to plan on the basis of compulosry purchase to cover the risk that the current owners of the land required are not ”willing sellers”. Certainly an Order under the Transport and Works Act is required, and from where they are now in the process that is at least three years away.

I'm very interested in the siting of the platforms at Old Oak Common Lane* station and of the Mildmay platforms at the same site (which I assume have to come at some time in the future). It looks to be 'on the edge (literally)' whether there will need to be compulsory purchase of land. The interesting thing is that one side of the track is residential and the other undeveloped. Obviously they would prefer to purchase the undeveloped land (if they need to). My question is, apart from the 'political/PR' aspects, is the process or the other formal legal hurdles to cross different for residential and non-residential land?

* a.k.a. Old Oak Common - Victoria Road (even though I don't think the entrance will be on Victoria Riad)

 

[Bald Rick]

My question is, apart from the 'political/PR' aspects, is the process or the other formal legal hurdles to cross different for residential and non-residential land?

It’s the same process.

 

[MarkyT]

I'm very interested in the siting of the platforms at Old Oak Common Lane* station and of the Mildmay platforms at the same site (which I assume have to come at some time in the future). It looks to be 'on the edge (literally)' whether there will need to be compulsory purchase of land. The interesting thing is that one side of the track is residential and the other undeveloped. Obviously they would prefer to purchase the undeveloped land (if they need to). My question is, apart from the 'political/PR' aspects, is the process or the other formal legal hurdles to cross different for residential and non-residential land?

* a.k.a. Old Oak Common - Victoria Road (even though I don't think the entrance will be on Victoria Riad)

I think if Mildmay platforms aren't there when WLO is built, there will be a north entrance on Victoria Rd only, at least initially. A south entrance via a subway tunnel could be added later part of the OOC Lane station development and if the Mildmay station is there at time of construction, then it's likely the south entrance will be created immediately. There'd be a question whether the N entrance as planned is worth building at all or whether a continuation of the subway path to an alternative intersection with the road would be a better option.

 

[Mr. SW]

A couple of points. A north entrance for the WLO platforms would be sub-optimal for the Out-of-Station Interchange with North Acton. Also it would be a waste of money to instal expensive lifts and then have to effectively abandon them when/if the new route is added at the southern end of the platforms to connect with the North London Line services. I suspect this will be taken into account and that any northern entrance will be for emergencies only.

 

[Meerkat]

I think if Mildmay platforms aren't there when WLO is built, there will be a north entrance on Victoria Rd only, at least initially. A south entrance via a subway tunnel could be added later part of the OOC Lane station development and if the Mildmay station is there at time of construction, then it's likely the south entrance will be created immediately. There'd be a question whether the N entrance as planned is worth building at all or whether a continuation of the subway path to an alternative intersection with the road would be a better option.

The plans show two footbridge alternatives. Both go to OOC Lane

 

[MarkyT]

The plans show two footbridge alternatives. Both go to OOC Lane

Some early concepts I saw of the wider complex showed a subway roughly in this location for TfL platfrom access, which could be better from a level change perspective for HS2/GWR/EL interchange. The general site of the HS2 terminal is some 8m lower than OOC lane at this point which is ~2m above the Mildmay tracks. With a footbridge over the tracks you'll have to climb up to OOC Lane (the street), cross it on the flat (with all its additional buses) then scale a footbridge to gain access to the TfL station. Lots of lifts or ramps for that too. Looks like the northern bridge location avoids an apartment block. Maybe there's some reason a subway would be impossibly difficult or expensive.

 

[Mr. SW]

There is a concept illustration here from 2016 - just scroll down

NNet

It shows a broad footbridge across the rail lines but a foot crossing over the road. Interestingly, it doesn't show the platforms on the Dudding Hill Line, as they hadn't thought about it yet.

 

[MarkyT]

There is a concept illustration here from 2016 - just scroll down

NNet

It shows a broad footbridge across the rail lines but a foot crossing over the road. Interestingly, it doesn't show the platforms on the Dudding Hill Line, as they hadn't thought about it yet.

This one:

Maybe add WLO using a wider bridge divided down the middle with a paid side, then steps/lifts to the additional platforms and another small gateline near the Victoria Rd end to avoid a long walk from that entrance if you're going to Neasden.

 

[Chris Butler]

With a footbridge over the tracks you'll have to climb up to OOC Lane (the street), cross it on the flat (with all its additional buses) then scale a footbridge to gain access to the TfL station. Lots of lifts or ramps for that too. Looks like the northern bridge location avoids an apartment block. Maybe there's some reason a subway would be impossibly difficult or expensive.

I think the 2016 illustrations have been overtaken by the OPDC Local Plan (mid 2022).

The planned bridge is not a footbridge, it's a new road (Old Oak Street). It's planned to run from the front of OOC station across the Mildmay lines (and the entrance to Old Oak Common station) and then parallel to the Mildmay for a short distance before crossing Victoria Road and heading to North Acton station (north side).

The gap between houses on Midland Terrace and Wells House Road pretty much constrain (if demolition is to be avoided) where it crosses the Mildmay lines and that corresponds to the north and south options shown on the TfL plan.

PS: I call the lines the Mildmay lines as a shorthand. Obviously they're more than that with freight and WLO maybe) traffic as well.

 

[Basil Jet]

An option I havent seen suggested is for the entire Overground service from Clapham Junction to use the existing curve just south of Willesden Junction (without platforms) and reverse at a new single bay platform between the lines at Acton Wells Junction, before heading up the Dudding Hill line to Harlesden (Bakerloo interchange) and Hendon.

The entire Overground service from Stratford would call at the nearby new pair of platforms before heading half to Richmond and half to Hounslow.

Thus, all Overground services would call at 3 nearby platforms (with one set of staff), and all services towards South Acton would use one platform instead of two different ones, and all services towards Gospel Oak would use one platform instead of two different stations a kilometre apart .

 

[Bald Rick]

An option I havent seen suggested is for the entire Overground service from Clapham Junction to use the existing curve just south of Willesden Junction (without platforms) and reverse at a new single bay platform between the lines at Acton Wells Junction, before heading up the Dudding Hill line to Harlesden (Bakerloo interchange) and Hendon. The entire Overground service from Stratford would call at the nearby new pair of platforms before heading half to Richmond and half to Hounslow. Thus all Overground services would call at 3 nearby platforms (with one set of staff), and all services towards South Acton would use one platform instead of two different ones, and all services towards Gospel Oak would use one platform instead of two different stations a kilometre apart .

I think that means 20 through movements plus 8-10 turnback movements through Acton Wells in the peak hours, plus frieght. I can’t see how that can be timetabled. (Nor how to turn 8-10 services off one platfrom each hour).

 

[Crithylum]

I think that means 20 through movements plus 8-10 turnback movements through Acton Wells in the peak hours, plus frieght. I can’t see how that can be timetabled. (Nor how to turn 8-10 services off one platfrom each hour).

I think on paper it is possible (100m trains are much quicker to turn than 200m+ intercity trains), but it would be insanely vulnerable to any disruption. Not worth the risk and complexity imo.

 

[greatkingrat]

And even if it was possible, I don't think people on the Clapham branch would be very happy about swapping direct trains to Camden/Highbury/Stratford for direct trains to Harlesden and Hendon.

 

[Basil Jet]

And even if it was possible, I don't think people on the Clapham branch would be very happy about swapping direct trains to Camden/Highbury/Stratford for direct trains to Harlesden and Hendon.

The journey planner usually sends WLL / NLL journeys via Central London, so for Caledonian Road & Barnsbury to Shepherds Bush it might tell you to get the *eastbound* train to change at Highbury and Oxford Circus rather than get the through westbound train. Unless you are disabled, keeping the NLL connected to the WLL is of little use.

I didn't make it clear but I was suggesting that a reversing bay would be built with the NLL pair on its east side and the Dudding Hill freight pair on its west. This involves widening the formation, but four-tracking is planned here so I guess some commercial property demolition and disruption to the GWML are inevitable under any WLO plan.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And even if it was possible, I don't think people on the Clapham branch would be very happy about swapping direct trains to Camden/Highbury/Stratford for direct trains to Harlesden and Hendon.

Even Highbury and Islington is much faster to reach by taking SWR to Vauxhall and the Victoria line from there, and as for anywhere further along on the line, the time savings of going via Vauxhall or Waterloo Tube are even bigger. An hour and five minutes to Stratford is not attractive when you can do it in half an hour via Waterloo and the Jubilee.

 

[cle]

I don't think end to end journeys are the focus, as agree, the Victoria line is London's incredible hypotenuse.

There is going to be a ton of house-building at the likes of Harlesden, Neasden and OOC - I don't think the first two will be big destinations - more swathes of apartments - but they will be sources of traffic. Like Cricklewood/BXW.

OOC will be a hub for all directions, and this will make a lot of journeys quicker, e.g. N/NW London to Heathrow.

 

[SWT_USER]

Some points from Mansfield video that railwaysceptic linked. This looks like a pdf of the presentation

https://www.thepwi.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/West-London-Orbital-Railway_D-Mansfield.pdf

A north facing bay at Old Oak Common Lane, not yet decided which side this will be. There are well advanced plans of the two options (in a public PDF?). This is for extra Hendon-OOCL services.

Wood Lane level crossing in Hounslow (east of Isleworth station) is now(?) a concern. This may be because WLO is no longer an X but a Y, all southbound trains will go to Hounslow.

Some sidings will be made north of Old Oak Common Lane station, on the west side, north of the canal, south of the WCML. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place//@51.5301143,-0.2478009,344m Further sidings at Wembley C.

The extra lines of the four tracking of Acton Wells Junction looks like it is only for from northeast to southeast, ie Mildmay only.

Why? There are about half the number of trains over it than there were 5 years ago

 

[Bald Rick]

Why? There are about half the number of trains over it than there were 5 years ago

It’s not about now!

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Even Highbury and Islington is much faster to reach by taking SWR to Vauxhall and the Victoria line from there, and as for anywhere further along on the line, the time savings of going via Vauxhall or Waterloo Tube are even bigger. An hour and five minutes to Stratford is not attractive when you can do it in half an hour via Waterloo and the Jubilee.

The London Overground trains using the West London Line are heavily patronised. Evidently a lot of people find the current service useful.