Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Anonymous10]

I was being a little facetious but I would be very surprised to learn that capacity on the lines they operated was sustained, or even increased, in the immediate aftermath of their withdrawal given the effects of Covid.

Capacity did drop (seated capacity) with the introduction of the 231s however they're much more pleasant and the same number of carriages, however they may be slightly shorter.

 

[Geeves]

You can come up with all the grand plans in the world regards to timetable changes at Wigan etc but the problem is that it in the case of Victoria for the new traction it's about 5 drivers a week and there's 400 of them, additional to that you need someone at Piccadilly to be available to route conduct so the Victoria drivers can do their practical handling because the amount of 323s out and about on the north side is practically zero in the grand scheme of things.

So no unfortunately things will be in the hands of the gods as far 769s keeping going for a while longer yet.

 

[sportzbar]

This is what I do not understand. They could theoretically have split the Southport service at Wigan from the May timetable change, with 3/4 car EMUs between Oxford Road/Stalybridge and Wigan North Western, and a DMU shuttle from the bay platform at Wallgate. And/or the Leeds to Wigan Wallgate service could be extended to Southport (they have over an hour turnaround in a siding at Wigan as things stand, which is hardly efficient diagramming). While this would result in a slight reduction in diagrammed coaches on some Wigan-Manchester trains, it would be far better than the current situation, where they are short formed more often than not.

Gonna be pedantic here an say that the Leeds-Wigan services don't have "over an hour turnaround in a siding at Wigan". The train arrives at Wigan at xx.40 and has a 5 min dwell to ensure all passengers are off. It them departs for the carriage sidings at xx 44, arriving at xx.47. The unit (with driver) them sits there until xx.42 when it comes back into service as the xx.49 to Leeds. So from arriving at Leeds to departing back to Leeds is 1hr 09m. So including shunting it's actually 55m which isn't enough time to continue to Southport.....

 

[amahy]

Gonna be pedantic here a say that the Leeds-Wigan services don't have "over an hour turnaround in a siding at Wigan". The train arrives at Wigan at xx.40 and has a 5 min dwell to ensure all passengers are off. It them departs for the carriage sidings at xx 44, arriving at xx.47. The unit (with driver) them sits there until xx.42 when it comes back into service as the xx.49 to Leeds. So from arriving at Leeds to departing back to Leeds is 1hr 09m. So including shunting it's actually 55m which isn't enough time to continue to Southport.....

I never said there is enough time for it to continue to Southport and still use the same number of units, but continuing to Southport would only require one more unit, and result in around a 40 minute turnaround at Southport, which is far better than the current situation.

 

[sportzbar]

I never said there is enough time for it to continue to Southport and still use the same number of units, but continuing to Southport would only require one more unit, and result in around a 40 minute turnaround at Southport, which is far better than the current situation.

Again being pedantic , that is exactly what you implied by stating....

"And/or the Leeds to Wigan Wallgate service could be extended to Southport (they have over an hour turnaround in a siding at Wigan as things stand, which is hardly efficient diagramming)."

So you did state that they have over an hour turnaround in Wigan sidings which as I've pointed out is factually incorrect.

However if you did mean that it would require the use of one more unit, then perhaps you should have stated that, which (I've just double checked), you didn't, hence my pedantic reply....

 

[Peter Sarf]

I am going to guess that the 1h09m hanging around at Wigan and its siding means that if a unit is missing or fails the service can be stepped up with the unit just arriving having 9 minutes to be turned round for its return to Leeds by not using the siding.

Whether the 1h09m at Wigan + siding is over the top resilience is another question.

 

[Bob Price]

A lot of movement today. The Rail Adventure 43's have just passed Bushbury en route to Crewe Electric Depot towing 769452, assuming to have it's pantograph refitted. Due Crewe about 12.30.

ROG 37800 just passed Crewe towing 769421 now with pantograph, heading for Crewe South Yard.

With 002 now fitted and having no TFW vinyls it looks like the replacement project is well underway.

 

[Geeves]

We've had long distance trains to Southport and they always end up getting cut short with Southport line passengers stuck at Wigan. Anyway it won't be an issue soon as the Leeds to Wigan will soon be Leeds to Salford Central.

To bring things back on topic has anyone heard anything of the extra 769s making a move into service yet Even my friend at ROG was none the wiser

 

[Liam L]

We've had long distance trains to Southport and they always end up getting cut short with Southport line passengers stuck at Wigan. Anyway it won't be an issue soon as the Leeds to Wigan will soon be Leeds to Salford Central.

To bring things back on topic has anyone heard anything of the extra 769s making a move into service yet Even my friend at ROG was none the wiser

If 002 is one of them? (Sorry I'm not sure which ones Northern are expecting), It was dragged back to Long Marston on Tuesday.

 

[KendalKing]

If 002 is one of them? (Sorry I'm not sure which ones Northern are expecting), It was dragged back to Long Marston on Tuesday.

It's supposely 421 & 452.

 

[Liam L]

It's supposely 421 & 452.

Thank you

 

[Wyrleybart]

You can come up with all the grand plans in the world regards to timetable changes at Wigan etc but the problem is that it in the case of Victoria for the new traction it's about 5 drivers a week and there's 400 of them, additional to that you need someone at Piccadilly to be available to route conduct so the Victoria drivers can do their practical handling because the amount of 323s out and about on the north side is practically zero in the grand scheme of things.

So no unfortunately things will be in the hands of the gods as far 769s keeping going for a while longer yet.

This is why the (passenger franchised) railways are in such a mess. You do not need 400 drivers to be trained to driver 6 units a day on one particular route. That is very costly protectionism at it's very worst, and DfT really should get a grip. You really would not have 400 captains and first officers type trained on a particular type of aeroplane to fly one particular (and not prestigious) route.

 

[KendalKing]

You do not need 400 drivers to be trained to driver 6 units a day on one particular route.

How many driver's, do you think that are need?

I am sure that the driver's, themselves would disagree with you.

 

[sportzbar]

How many driver's, do you think that are need?

I am sure that the driver's, themselves would disagree with you.

Well considering there are less than 250 drivers at Victoria, I'm sure the drivers themselves would disagree with you....

 

[KendalKing]

Well considering there are less than 250 drivers at Victoria, I'm sure the drivers themselves would disagree with you....

What about the locations, that driver's are based at?

 

[sportzbar]

What about the locations, that driver's are based at?

Not sure what you mean. Only Victoria (and a small number of Buxton drivers) is left to do training wise and half of the drivers are already done. So nowhere near 400 or even 200 left to do. More likely around 100-150 or so...

 

[FrontSideBus]

It would be nice to see the one that went through the Channel Tunnel going again. It's stored, isn't it?

 

[Bikeman78]

I was being a little facetious but I would be very surprised to learn that capacity on the lines they operated was sustained, or even increased, in the immediate aftermath of their withdrawal given the effects of Covid.

The majority of trains to Bargoed and Rhymney are four car class 231s and they are full in the peaks. One out of four trains are class 150s which come from Bridgend and even one of those is booked a pair.

 

[Chris125]

The majority of trains to Bargoed and Rhymney are four car class 231s and they are full in the peaks. One out of four trains are class 150s which come from Bridgend and even one of those is booked a pair.

"in the immediate aftermath of their withdrawal given the effects of Covid"

 

[Bikeman78]

"in the immediate aftermath of their withdrawal given the effects of Covid"

I'm confused. They were withdrawn in May 2023 and replaced with class 231 (also four cars) which started running in January 2023. I think passengers numbers were going up, not down, at that point.

 

[Chris125]

I'm confused. They were withdrawn in May 2023 and replaced with class 231 (also four cars) which started running in January 2023. I think passengers numbers were going up, not down, at that point.

Like I said it was a facetious comment, it's not worth endlessly debating.

 

[Wyrleybart]

How many driver's, do you think that are need?

I am sure that the driver's, themselves would disagree with you.

Assuming that each of the six units per day needs 5 drivers per day, you need 30 drivers per day to run the service. Assuming each driver could work a 769 two days per week out of the four turns per week, you still at less than 100 drivers a week including AL, sickness, training etc.

The four hundred drivers quoted assumes that every Northern driver within a hundred miles has a diagram on the Staley-Southport route, which is really not necessary. This is pure "control" to make sure that all drivers get a slice of it.

 

[thealexweb]

Assuming that each of the six units per day needs 5 drivers per day, you need 30 drivers per day to run the service. Assuming each driver could work a 769 two days per week out of the four turns per week, you still at less than 100 drivers a week including AL, sickness, training etc.

The four hundred drivers quoted assumes that every Northern driver within a hundred miles has a diagram on the Staley-Southport route, which is really not necessary. This is pure "control" to make sure that all drivers get a slice of it.

Manchester Victoria based staff have a reputation of being quite reasonable no?
You should turn your attention to Blackpool based crews who insist on being traction on routes/traction they don't actively use...

 

[childwallblues]

Surely you only need Wigan and Liverpool drivers trained on the 769s?

 

[sportzbar]

Surely you only need Wigan and Liverpool drivers trained on the 769s?

Wigan and Victoria mainly with Liverpool drivers to take them to Allerton depot.

 

[M60lad]

And Victoria drivers I'm guessing to take them to and from Newton Heath Depot

 

[sportzbar]

And Victoria drivers I'm guessing to take them to and from Newton Heath Depot

Wigan drivers - Stalybridge/Oxford Road - Southport, Victoria - Newton Heath, Springs Branch and Lime st

Victoria Drivers - Stalybridge/Oxford Road - Southport, Victoria - Newton Heath.

Liverpool Drivers - Victoria/Wigan - Lime St/Allerton

 

[Geeves]

Wigan drivers - Stalybridge/Oxford Road - Southport, Victoria - Newton Heath, Springs Branch and Lime st.
Victoria Drivers - Stalybridge/Oxford Road - Southport, Victoria - Newton Heath.

Liverpool Drivers - Victoria/Wigan - Lime St/Allerton

Liverpool also have work to Stalybridge as a hold over to when they used to go all the way Huddersfield on the stopper. Wigan sign Newton Heath as well. Victoria do not sign Springs Branch currently.

I wasn't in today but yesterday plenty of 769 incidents. One out at Parbold for some time and issues at Victoria with no power. Could've been the same unit actually.

 

[GhostManDN91]

Noticed today that there aren't any 769s at all out at Wigan. All of the Southport to Manchester trains are running as 2 car.

 

[AMD]

Yep, it got to the point around half 10 this morning that there was only one working unit left, and Network Rail have stated that when it's down to one it has to be pulled from service.