Grand Central Cleethorpes - Kings Cross - Application to ORR

[357]

Grand Central to submit application for direct services between Lincolnshire and London | Grand Central Rail

www.grandcentralrail.com

Under the proposals, direct services to London will be provided from Cleethorpes, Grimsby, Habrough, and Scunthorpe, with Grand Central planning to operate the services from as early as December 2026.

The plan makes best use of capacity on the rail network by running trains from the proposed new stops before connecting into existing Grand Central services at Doncaster.

The application will likely be welcomed by local businesses, communities, and stakeholders across East Lincolnshire who have been campaigning for the reintroduction of direct rail links to London, with Cleethorpes not having a direct service for over 30 years.

If approved, the extended route will provide additional capacity and improved connectivity with four new return services per day and over 775,000 additional seats annually made available between Cleethorpes, Grimsby and London’s Kings Cross.

I wonder if the coupling/uncoupling at Doncaster will be approved or if they will need to come up with another plan?

 

[Cach17]

That'd surely undercut LNER's proposed daily KGX-Cleethorpes service.

 

[Snow1964]

This is Arriva group press release

Arriva Group today notifies Network Rail that it is submitting an open access application to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) for direct services between Cleethorpes, Grimsby and London, making use of Grand Central’s existing open access route to Doncaster and extending the service to new underserved areas.

The proposals are expected to be welcomed by communities, businesses and organisations in East Lincolnshire, who have been campaigning for the reintroduction of direct rail links to London, with Cleethorpes not having a direct service for over 30 years.

If approved, the extended route will provide additional capacity and improved connectivity with four new return services per day and over 775,000 additional seats annually made available between Cleethorpes, Grimsby and London’s Kings Cross.

Amanda Furlong, Interim Managing Director of Arriva’s UK Trains division said: "Arriva wants to make travelling by train as accessible as possible and this proposal will offer a much-needed, direct connection between major Lincolnshire towns and the capital, providing significant connectivity benefits for communities and businesses and driving long-term economic growth for the region”.

As well as providing additional capacity, Grand Central’s proposed new connections will unlock significant economic benefits, with a study by the Greater Lincolnshire Local Enterprise Partnership estimating a Cleethorpes-London service could generate up to £30.1 million annually for the region.

In addition to this application to expand services in Lincolnshire, Grand Central has previously submitted two other applications with the ORR, including proposals for two extra daily return services between Bradford and London and an early morning and late evening return from York to London. The operator also has an outstanding application to extend its existing track access rights until 2038.

Arriva Group to submit application for expanded UK open access rail connections in Yorkshire and the Humber

Services would bring direct London connection to Grimsby and Cleethorpes by extending existing open access routes with Grand Central. Application will be notified to Network Rail today and submitted to the Office of Road and Rail, commencing a period of consultation with industry. New services...

news.arriva.co.uk

 

[357]

That'd surely undercut LNER's proposed daily KGX-Cleethorpes service.

I don't see how - unless they are timed within minutes of each other.

GC are proposing 4 trains a day, so a significant increase on the proposed 1 train from LNER that I believe hasn't even started yet?

You can't undercut services that haven't started yet.

 

[Prerail]

Where are Grand Central going to get the trains to run the services?

 

[357]

Where are Grand Central going to get the trains to run the services?

They are planning to order new units for all services if track access is extended.

 

[Prerail]

They are planning to order new units for all services if track access is extended.

Those units won’t be available before 2028 at the very earliest, and this service is due to start next year

 

[Trainz6013]

I wonder if that has something to do with 180109 being at Alstom? maybe they are going to take on some of the stored 180s for the additional services until the new stock is ready

 

[Cach17]

Where are Grand Central going to get the trains to run the services?

They have 10 Class 180s, along with a pair of 221s. I would think there's enough spare units to attach to the Bradford services.

(that is assuming enough 180s are in working order!)

 

[357]

Those units won’t be available before 2028 at the very earliest, and this service is due to start next year

Fair point, for the meantime there are 180s and 221/222 units potentially available so I'm sure something will be sorted if this is agreed.

 

[Grimsby town]

It's pretty much the same proposal that was proposed originally by Grand Union trains (or some other name) around a decade or so ago. I think the plan then was to split and join with a new Bradford service via Leeds. The Leeds service was rejected due to revenue extraction but it was stated at the time that the Cleethorpes service would be acceptable by itself.

As long as there as the rollingstock can be sourced, this service is surely a no brainer. Revenue extraction should be relatively minimal. Capacity between Doncaster and Grimsby shouldn't be an issue given the reductions in freight. Grimsby to Cleethorpes might be somewhat of a bottleneck with Lincoln services being extended but terminating at Grimsby could be possible for some services or in times of disruption. The only potential issue is the performance risk of splitting and joining but that hopefully won't be a show stopper especially compared to proposals using additonal paths.

 

[Kite159]

Wouldn't it introduce a risk with attaching & detaching 180s* at Doncaster?

At least it will reduce the number of 5 coach trains taking up paths on the southern section of the ECML.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Splitting and joining cl.180 units in service will be a brave move. Experience has shown that this is not ideal.

The time penalty for doing this at Doncaster isn’t just a couple of minutes and you can easily lose your existing paths in trying to timetable this. Doncaster is also a busy station and occupying a platform for 10 or so minutes whilst all the activities take place may be unacceptable.

Personally speaking, the route across from Grimsby to Donny is very slow. If LNER ever get their service via Market Rasen going, they will take most of the traffic.

 

[Grimsby town]

Splitting and joining cl.180 units in service will be a brave move. Experience has shown that this is not ideal.

The time penalty for doing this at Doncaster isn’t just a couple of minutes and you can easily lose your existing paths in trying to timetable this. Doncaster is also a busy station and occupying a platform for 10 or so minutes whilst all the activities take place may be unacceptable.

Personally speaking, the route across from Grimsby to Donny is very slow. If LNER ever get their service via Market Rasen going, they will take most of the traffic.

Platform capacity could definitely be issue but the DfT don't seem keen on additonal services which carry more of a performance risk. The main performance risk of services arriving at a different time is only an issue on southbound services but the northbound services will mean additonal ECML crossings at Donny.

Via Lincoln is unlikely to be quicker than the Grand Central proposal, even with a 10 minute wait at Donny. The Lincoln services stop at all stations and the Grand Central are non stop from Donny to London. Its about 10 minutes slower to Doncaster from Cleethorpes compared to Lincoln but then 20-25 minutes quicker to London. There's only ever been proposals for 1 train per day by LNER too.

 

[357]

Splitting and joining cl.180 units in service will be a brave move. Experience has shown that this is not ideal.

I suspect new couplers may well be installed if this service is started up using 180s.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's pretty much the same proposal that was proposed originally by Grand Union trains (or some other name) around a decade or so ago. I think the plan then was to split and join with a new Bradford service via Leeds. The Leeds service was rejected due to revenue extraction but it was stated at the time that the Cleethorpes service would be acceptable by itself.

That was in fact Grand Central themselves! They proposed a big expansion of their West Yorkshire services alongside Cleethorpes but as you say it was rejected but with a very strong hint that Cleethorpes alone would have been approved.

I suspect new couplers may well be installed if this service is started up using 180s.

I suspect someone like @Clarence Yard would know one way or the other but my impression was the issue lies within the software and getting the units talking to each other rather than the physical coupling itself. So changing couplers doesn't help you sadly.

 

[357]

I suspect someone like @Clarence Yard would know one way or the other but my impression was the issue lies within the software and getting the units talking to each other rather than the physical coupling itself. So changing couplers doesn't help you sadly.

I've never driven an Alstom unit with this TMS in multiple, however the TMS is the most reliable I have ever used. Much simpler than an Electrostar or Aventra for example, but much more reliable as a result.

 

[YorkRailFan]

They have 10 Class 180s, along with a pair of 221s. I would think there's enough spare units to attach to the Bradford services.

(that is assuming enough 180s are in working order!)

Aren't there a total of 14 180s with 4 being ex-EMR units in storage? GC operated 180 110 (ex-EMR) for a period of time quite recently and it seemed quite reliable (for a 180!) going up and down the ECML. If the other 4 are usuable, they'd be OK as a short term solution until GC's new trains arrive sometime in 2028.

 

[ainsworth74]

Cheers. I'll tell Alstom not to bother.

Not quite sure what I've done to warrant that reaction but I was simply observing considering my understanding of @Clarence Yard's roles in the industry they may have some first-hand knowledge they could share. In the interim I thought I'd relate my impression of the situation.

If that's caused offense then I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

[dk1]

Apart from revenue raiding from Doncaster, I really struggle to understand the potential from this area.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The problems with 180’s coupling in service tend to be electrical. You suddenly find something doesn’t work and it’s a no go.

In that sense they are a bit similar to putting cl.50’s together. You were never quite sure what you were going to get!

 

[357]

The problems with 180’s coupling in service tend to be electrical. You suddenly find something doesn’t work and it’s a no go.

In that sense they are a bit similar to putting cl.50’s together. You were never quite sure what you were going to get!

Indeed. Happy to discuss current progress in PM if it interests you however I won't be sharing information that's not currently public domain in this thread as I like my job more than I like this forum

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Mar 2025 ==

Not quite sure what I've done to warrant that reaction but I was simply observing considering my understanding of @Clarence Yard's roles in the industry they may have some first-hand knowledge they could share. In the interim I thought I'd relate my impression of the situation.

If that's caused offense then I'm sorry you feel that way.

Sorry if I read your post the wrong way - if was very early in the morning at the time

 

[weeklycommuter]

I expect this open access application by Grand Central for four trains a day each way between Cleethorpes, Grimsby and London Kings Cross delivered by attaching a second set to their four trains a day each way between Bradford Interchange and London Kings Cross joining and dividing at Doncaster will have cross party support in Parliament looking at the following debate as recorded in Hansard.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2025-02-06/debates/1BAA1E79-8EE0-465B-97E6-F555486A7963/RailServicesOpenAccessOperators

Rail Services: Open Access Operators
Volume 761: debated on Thursday 6 February 2025

Martin Vickers (Brigg and Immingham) (Con)
I beg to move, That this House has considered open access operators for rail services.

I start by drawing attention to the progress made on the east coast main line, where today three privately owned open access inter-city operators compete with the Government-run LNER. This successful and mature model is now 25 years old and sees open access operators connect towns and cities across the north that were traditionally not served, or that endured poor inter-city connections. Open access is a great success. The statistics reflect that on many fronts, and I will come on to the detail.
One group of towns that open access has not yet reached consists of Grimsby, Cleethorpes and the intermediate stations. I am determined that the Brigg and Immingham constituency and the wider northern Lincolnshire area enjoy more direct and fast trains connecting with London and other key cities. I have been campaigning for such a service since 2011 and remain committed to delivering this key and long overdue connection. I hope Members will indulge me if I focus on this constituency matter for a few minutes before moving on to the wider arguments.
From a Grimsby point of view, it matters not whether the service leaves the main line at Newark and runs via Lincoln, or whether it leaves at Doncaster and takes the route through Scunthorpe. Either route will also serve Grimsby, Cleethorpes, Barnetby and Habrough. Habrough is just two miles from the country’s largest port, Immingham. For that reason alone, it surely deserves a direct service to the capital.
Some years ago, Grand Central submitted an application to run services via Doncaster, which was turned down by the regulator. I have been raising this issue with successive Ministers for many years, and I have been given no end of reasons why it cannot happen. First, there was the question of capacity on the main line. That is not a problem if the existing services to Lincoln are extended to Cleethorpes, however, because they already have a path from King’s Cross through to Newark. LNER ran a trial of their Azuma units through to Cleethorpes and found no serious issues, other than at Market Rasen, which requires a new footbridge and some work on the platform. My right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) may have something to say on that during the debate.
It now appears that the problems at Market Rasen are being put forward as the reason why services cannot go ahead. If the reported costs of between £15 million and £20 million for the work at Market Rasen are to be believed, Network Rail needs to improve its procurement process and find new contractors. Quite simply, those figures are ridiculous, and it sounds more like a tactic to convince Ministers not to go ahead. I trust that the Minister will address that point in his response.
Melanie Onn (Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Brigg and Immingham (Martin Vickers) on securing this debate, and I am very pleased to support him in it. He has been a long-standing campaigner on this issue. On the point about platform improvements at Market Rasen, is he aware of other areas in the country that are getting modular platform extensions, which are proving to be much cheaper than the price he mentioned?

 

[800001]

I expect this open access application by Grand Central for four trains a day each way between Cleethorpes, Grimsby and London Kings Cross delivered by attaching a second set to their four trains a day each way between Bradford Interchange and London Kings Cross joining and dividing at Doncaster will have cross party support in Parliament looking at the following debate as recorded in Hansard.

LNER originally where planned to attach/detach there 801s on route in there original plans.
This was altered to run in fixed formations to reduce risk of delay from awaiting delayed services, and also issues arising from coupling/uncoupling.

I find it risky for GC to plan this at such a busy station and with limited alternative platforms if something is running late.

 

[Failed Unit]

I will be interesting how LNER react now, if this will focus their mind to getting their service running in 2026. For them to increase the frequency they will also need an extra unit (as the currrent proposal is marginal time). However I also struggle to understand where the demand is coming from. Taking some of TPEs Doncaster - Cleethorpes fare box will of course help. If LNER / EMR do really improve the connection at Lincoln, we could see some interesting AP pricing. Splitting a joining seems to always cause a lot of debate, however I have not seen many performance issues on the former Network South East services. They also use congested tracks.

 

[357]

I find it risky for GC to plan this at such a busy station and with limited alternative platforms if something is running late.

I suspect there will be alternative locations available if needed such as Ranskill/Carlton/Claypool loops or even the platform at Grantham.

Heading northbound, providing the coupling/uncoupling process is reliable enough, I can't see an issue doing it at Doncaster.

 

[800001]

I suspect there will be alternative locations available if needed such as Ranskill/Carlton/Claypool loops or even the platform at Grantham.

Heading northbound, providing the coupling/uncoupling process is reliable enough, I can't see an issue doing it at Doncaster.

Services heading south, why would they use a loop? And Grantham is worse than Doncaster!

Also, who drives the unit to those locations to attachment? Surely the driver would be rostered to Doncaster to then work an alternative service?

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

How much of GC revenue comes from the Doncaster/York to London bit, rather than from the bits further north (or west)? I thought the former was the profitable bit. In which case, this seems to make less sense, as it doesn't provide any extra services down the ECML (and if it is about capacity, then longer trains could simply run on the current routes, or just from Doncaster/York). Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it and think it's excellent news, but this was the first thought that crossed my mind. Or maybe my understanding that the ECML is the profitable bit is wrong.

 

[Donny Dave]

As I previously mentioned in the the thread about LNER services to and from Cleethorpes. In my opinion, there is no need for such services. From Cleethorpes, Grimsby, Barnetby and Scunthorpe there is a sub 20 minute connection for a train to London, with the connection time roughly the same when heading to the aforementioned stations.

 

[357]

Services heading south, why would they use a loop? And Grantham is worse than Doncaster!

If it's due to continue as a ten car but one portion is delayed, it's better to wait and attach in a loop rather than blocking a platform at Doncaster.

I am thinking out loud as someone who signs the route - I'd be fine coupling in a loop but I can imagine that people above me may prefer it was done in a platform.

Also, who drives the unit to those locations to attachment? Surely the driver would be rostered to Doncaster to then work an alternative service?

Many diagrams at smaller operators have large amounts of time built in "just in case". With only 4 trains a day there's probably not going to immediately be something else available to drive, but we will wait and see what happens.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Mar 2025 ==

trains could simply run on the current routes

On the West Riding the only place a 10 car train would fit after Doncaster is platform 1 at Bradford. There are already two stations where a 221 needs the rear door locking out of use.