Grand Central Cleethorpes - Kings Cross - Application to ORR

[Class 170101]

I suspect there will be alternative locations available if needed such as Ranskill/Carlton/Claypool loops or even the platform at Grantham.

Heading northbound, providing the coupling/uncoupling process is reliable enough, I can't see an issue doing it at Doncaster.

I doubt the loops have permissive working for passenger trains.

Grantham would be a pain as the station is effectively mostly on the downside so would require crossing to the down loop platform. Attaching in the Up Platform would foul the Up running line. Also is Grantham permissive to attach / detach?

I expect this open access application by Grand Central for four trains a day each way between Cleethorpes, Grimsby and London Kings Cross delivered by attaching a second set to their four trains a day each way between Bradford Interchange and London Kings Cross joining and dividing at Doncaster will have cross party support in Parliament looking at the following debate as recorded in Hansard.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Doncaster between 0200 and 0159 on 25/06/2025

Train information at Doncaster between 0200 and 0159 on 25/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I think the main problem will be working out how to keep single units on the Sunderland circuits whilst simultaneously keeping doubles on the Bradford / Cleethorpes circuits and at the same time keeping the maintenance opportunities alive. Currently some of the Bradford services become Sunderland services in London and vice versa.

Platform capacity could definitely be issue but the DfT don't seem keen on additonal services which carry more of a performance risk. The main performance risk of services arriving at a different time is only an issue on southbound services but the northbound services will mean additonal ECML crossings at Donny.

Platform capacity for the double sets at Kings Cross may also become an issue if they are platform sharing with Hull Trains / Lumo.

Via Lincoln is unlikely to be quicker than the Grand Central proposal, even with a 10 minute wait at Donny. The Lincoln services stop at all stations and the Grand Central are non stop from Donny to London. Its about 10 minutes slower to Doncaster from Cleethorpes compared to Lincoln but then 20-25 minutes quicker to London. There's only ever been proposals for 1 train per day by LNER too.

Based on the RTT link above the morning train from Cleethorpes will be too late. The Lincoln arrives at 09:22, the first Bradford it could join to doesn't arrive until 10:07 at Kings Cross.

 

[357]

I doubt the loops have permissive working for passenger trains.

Grantham would be a pain as the station is effectively mostly on the downside so would require crossing to the down loop platform. Attaching in the Up Platform would foul the Up running line. Also is Grantham permissive to attach / detach?

I've had a very early start today! I actually was thinking of Retford. I've never stopped there but I can't see space being an issue.

An alternative of course would be to hold the train from Bradford before reaching Doncaster, either in Hemsworth Loop or at Shaftholme Junction. I don't know the line from Cleethorpes so don't know if there's anywhere a train could be held in the event of the Bradford - London running late.

 

[800001]

I've had a very early start today! I actually was thinking of Retford. I've never stopped there but I can't see space being an issue.

An alternative of course would be to hold the train from Bradford before reaching Doncaster, either in Hemsworth Loop or at Shaftholme Junction. I don't know the line from Cleethorpes so don't know if there's anywhere a train could be held in the event of the Bradford - London running late.

Retford would actually be a good place to join.
LNER ever 2 hours, and then the Hull trains.
Platform availability would be very good!
Also increases services to there.

 

[357]

Retford would actually be a good place to join.
LNER ever 2 hours, and then the Hull trains.
Platform availability would be very good!
Also increases services to there.

I knew it made sense in my head

Come to think of it doesn't Retford get less LNER services in the new timetable?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Retford would actually be a good place to join.
LNER ever 2 hours, and then the Hull trains.
Platform availability would be very good!
Also increases services to there.

Retford and Grantham have been looked at seriously by Hull Trains and it is a no-go without platform/signalling alterations. Donny is about the only place you could do it but you are blocking a platform for several minutes.

 

[800001]

Retford and Grantham have been looked at seriously by Hull Trains and it is a no-go without platform/signalling alterations. Donny is about the only place you could do it but you are blocking a platform for several minutes.

I suppose the curved platform at Retford would not help with coupling up.

 

[Grimsby town]

As I previously mentioned in the the thread about LNER services to and from Cleethorpes. In my opinion, there is no need for such services. From Cleethorpes, Grimsby, Barnetby and Scunthorpe there is a sub 20 minute connection for a train to London, with the connection time roughly the same when heading to the aforementioned stations.

These are the top non served flows from London King's Cross for 2023/24. There's the usual health warnings about split ticketing not being included.

Sheffield - 79k passengers
Nottingham - 58k
Middlesborough -29k
Grimsby - 19k
Bedord - 19k
Scarborough - 19k
Stamford - 16k
Scunthorpe - 16k
Huddersfield- 15k

Cleethorpes also has 9k similar to Thornaby. So North Lincolnshire is probably the largest unserved market excluding the Midland Mainline destinations which may be impacted by overcounting. Given a lot of people drive to Newark or Doncaster or to the edge of London, there'll be demand for the services. Connections are ok at Doncaster but its quite easy for a delay to lead to an hour wait for TPE which will put infrequent users off. If places like Harrogate and Bradford can support a regular direct service, given there far better connections to Leeds (and York), North Lincolnshire should be able to support 4 trains per day.

It might also provide better connections at Doncaster to York and further north which are terrible with the current timetable.

Platform capacity for the double sets at Kings Cross may also become an issue if they are platform sharing with Hull Trains / Lumo.

Fair point but if that's a show stopper then the ECML clearly needs far more investment.

Based on the RTT link above the morning train from Cleethorpes will be too late. The Lincoln arrives at 09:22, the first Bradford it could join to doesn't arrive until 10:07 at Kings Cross.

Although Grand Central also want additonal services which might include an earlier service. I don't think 50 minutes will make a significant difference to people using it for meetings to London. Even commuting it'd only be a significant issue if you're not allowed to work on the train due to security issues.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I suspect there will be alternative locations available if needed such as Ranskill/Carlton/Claypool loops or even the platform at Grantham.

Heading northbound, providing the coupling/uncoupling process is reliable enough, I can't see an issue doing it at Doncaster.

GC would then need the extra driver to continue past Doncaster, if the plan is currently to have an extra driver book on/off at Doncaster then that isn't possible.

 

[357]

GC would then need the extra driver to continue past Doncaster, if the plan is currently to have an extra driver book on/off at Doncaster then that isn't possible.

It will all come down to money - is it cheaper to block a platform at Doncaster in the event of disruption or is it cheaper to roster drivers with some wiggle room.

Personally it wouldn't surprise me if the train is double crewed between Doncaster and London - a large number of GC trains already have multiple crew onboard (see previous thread about GC blocking off seats so crew can take their break).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I remember having a train magazine from 2008 predicting the start day of this service would be in the dizzying future of 2012. 30 Grand Central trains a day could be leaving King’s Cross by then I remember it saying.

 

[Failed Unit]

Cleethorpes also has 9k similar to Thornaby. So North Lincolnshire is probably the largest unserved market excluding the Midland Mainline destinations which may be impacted by overcounting. Given a lot of people drive to Newark or Doncaster or to the edge of London, there'll be demand for the services. Connections are ok at Doncaster but its quite easy for a delay to lead to an hour wait for TPE which will put infrequent users off. If places like Harrogate and Bradford can support a regular direct service, given there far better connections to Leeds (and York), North Lincolnshire should be able to support 4 trains per day.

Not sure how TPE are now, but in the not so dim and distance past, even if the train was on-time you could have a long wait for a TPE service that was terminated at Sheffield (rather then running to Cleethorpes)

 

[Gemz91]

Is it likely these would be crewed with Bradford crew and an early morning empty stock movement to Cleethorpes rather than a new depot at Cleethorpes?

 

[IanXC]

Presumably you could avoid the crossing move for the northbound Cleethorpes move by running it via Adwick and Skellow.

The southbound Cleethorpes portion could be held on the slow lines at Kirk Sandal awaiting the portion from Bradford.

The southbound Bradford your options are a little further away - as mentioned above Hemsworth and Shatfholme depending on the routing of the service.

 

[Mojo]

That'd surely undercut LNER's proposed daily KGX-Cleethorpes service.

The LNER proposal is a service via Market Rasen and Lincoln whereas GC's is via Scunthorpe.

 

[bunnahabhain]

The only permissive platform at Grantham is P3. P4 is only permitted during disruption on the ECML and not for regular use.

 

[Class 170101]

Presumably you could avoid the crossing move for the northbound Cleethorpes move by running it via Adwick and Skellow.

Assuming you can get a path across the flat Junctions at / near Adwick Station.

 

[Galaxy]

Just looking this in a bit more detail which on the December 2025 timetable.

Departures ex-Doncaster to Cleethorpes: 1252, 1452, 1802, 2134 (no major clashes if the TPE remains at 2147)
Departures ex-Cleethorpes to Doncaster: 0710, 0847, 1050, 1550
Departures ex-Scunthorpe to Doncaster: 0800, 0937, 1139, 1638

An extra three units required to make it work, but the plan works as far as units on the SX timetable.

Loads more to do on this though to make it fit at Donny...

 

[weeklycommuter]

That'd surely undercut LNER's proposed daily KGX-Cleethorpes service.

The LNER proposal is a service via Market Rasen and Lincoln whereas GC's is via Scunthorpe.

LNER are only promising one KGX-Cleethorpes train a day and they currently say they cannot even deliver that so if I were the MPs I would tell LNER not to bother and support the four GC trains a day via Doncaster instead.

 

[Class 170101]

LNER are only promising one KGX-Cleethorpes train a day and they currently say they cannot even deliver that so if I were the MPs I would tell LNER not to bother and support the four GC trains a day via Doncaster instead.

I would support both as an MP (if I was one). The more the merrier.

But why can LNER say they can't deliver? Its in marginal time and surely if Market Rasen is the problem then just run through with provision in the schedule to add the call at a later date. Market Rasen shouldn't cause it to be a busted flush.

 

[WAB]

I do think that this is risky operationally. I can well envisage some judicious cancellations if one or both portions don't make it to Donny on time.

 

[brad465]

Set this service up, get Tinie Tempah to promote it and he finally say "I've been Southampton and now I've also been to Scunthorpe."

(Runs for cover)

 

[Gemz91]

I would support both as an MP (if I was one). The more the merrier.

But why can LNER say they can't deliver? Its in marginal time and surely if Market Rasen is the problem then just run through with provision in the schedule to add the call at a later date. Market Rasen shouldn't cause it to be a busted flush.

Is Market Rasen a particularly large catchment area from surrounding towns without railways? I don’t know the area, only know of the name because of the racecourse.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Just looking this in a bit more detail which on the December 2025 timetable.

Departures ex-Doncaster to Cleethorpes: 1252, 1452, 1802, 2134 (no major clashes if the TPE remains at 2147)
Departures ex-Cleethorpes to Doncaster: 0710, 0847, 1050, 1550
Departures ex-Scunthorpe to Doncaster: 0800, 0937, 1139, 1638

An extra three units required to make it work, but the plan works as far as units on the SX timetable.

Loads more to do on this though to make it fit at Donny...

The Dec 25 dwells at Donny are only a couple of minutes at best, so at 5 minimum for a 180 uncouple/couple (it’s 7 for a 222 or 80x, btw) and then allowing a second train to come in, it is likely going to mean missed paths north or south on those Dec 25 KX-Bradford services.

I suspect they are planning this with their proposed extra Bradford paths included so they get away with needing only 2 extra units in traffic. Still very expensive for the likely revenue gain on the Doncaster to Cleethorpes section.

 

[johntea]

How much of GC revenue comes from the Doncaster/York to London bit, rather than from the bits further north (or west)? I thought the former was the profitable bit. In which case, this seems to make less sense, as it doesn't provide any extra services down the ECML (and if it is about capacity, then longer trains could simply run on the current routes, or just from Doncaster/York). Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it and think it's excellent news, but this was the first thought that crossed my mind. Or maybe my understanding that the ECML is the profitable bit is wrong.

I was on the 10:57 Kings Cross to Bradford Interchange today and was somewhat surprised how busy it was a)leaving London and b)stil fairly busy after I alighted at Pontefract (granted most may have bailed at Wakefield!) but the grand tour of West Yorkshire certainly seems to be an attraction for some passengers

There also seemed to be a change of guard at Doncaster which I didn't know was a thing

 

[rishtonlad]

I have used the service to get from Doncaster to Halifax a few times on a Saturday and there is always seems quite a few going past Doncaster and there always seems good numbers getting off at each stop.

 

[DarloRich]

Sigh. I am going to be the one who says it: yet more capacity on key lines used up with marginal services designed to placate provincials.

Also: Grand Central do not have the most, erm, stellar reliability record. Should they be adding more services?

 

[ainsworth74]

Sigh. I am going to be the one who says it: yet more capacity on key lines used up with marginal services designed to placate provincials.

Though, of course, they're not after more paths between Doncaster and London for this one. Which is a change!

 

[DarloRich]

Though, of course, they're not after more paths between Doncaster and London for this one. Which is a change!

TBH they are cancelled so often they might actually create paths

Should have kept the HST.

 

[leighsw2]

Sigh. I am going to be the one who says it: yet more capacity on key lines used up with marginal services designed to placate provincials.

As I previously mentioned in the the thread about LNER services to and from Cleethorpes. In my opinion, there is no need for such services. From Cleethorpes, Grimsby, Barnetby and Scunthorpe there is a sub 20 minute connection for a train to London, with the connection time roughly the same when heading to the aforementioned stations.

North-East and North Lincolnshire has a combined population of 326,600 - greater than Derby or Nottingham and not far short of Leicester. Also greater than Hull, Middlesbrough and Sunderland. It must be one of the largest population centres in England without a direct service to London. The service the area's had to put up with for the last 30 years is a joke - overcrowded DMUs, no catering, a connection at Doncaster that's little better than a lottery. Journey times (when the connection does work) are scarcely better than 50 years ago when there were four direct trains a day to Grimsby and Cleethorpes (on a train with 10 coaches including a buffet and restaurant!)

(I also note that North-East Lincolnshire is one of the few places in England whose population actually fell between the censuses of 2011 and 2021, so the economic development of the area is clearly not being helped by the transport situation.)

Connections are ok at Doncaster but its quite easy for a delay to lead to an hour wait for TPE which will put infrequent users off.

That would be me then - I haven't visited Cleethorpes since 2019 and if I do go I will arrange to be picked up in the car by a family member at Doncaster or Newark. Anything rather than subject myself to the hellishness of connecting at Doncaster to TPE!

 

[185143]

North-East and North Lincolnshire has a combined population of 326,600 - greater than Derby or Nottingham and not far short of Leicester. Also greater than Hull, Middlesbrough and Sunderland. It must be one of the largest population centres in England without a direct service to London. The service the area's had to put up with for the last 30 years is a joke - overcrowded DMUs, no catering, a connection at Doncaster that's little better than a lottery. Journey times (when the connection does work) are scarcely better than 50 years ago when there were four direct trains a day to Grimsby and Cleethorpes (on a train with 10 coaches including a buffet and restaurant!)

(I also note that North-East Lincolnshire is one of the few places in England whose population actually fell between the censuses of 2011 and 2021, so the economic development of the area is clearly not being helped by the transport situation.)


That would be me then - I haven't visited Cleethorpes since 2019 and if I do go I will arrange to be picked up in the car by a family member at Doncaster or Newark. Anything rather than subject myself to the hellishness of connecting at Doncaster to TPE!

Could think of worse things than missing a connection and having to spend the best part of an hour in The Draughtsman, along with it being a free trip though!