TfW 158s to Northern?

[GhostManDN91]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #5 originally in this thread.

The Welsh 158s will be available at some point.

I'm hearing Northern have requested those 158s too. I don't know if it will happen officially but I've heard it.

 

[brad465]

I'm hearing Northern have requested those 158s too. I don't know if it will happen officially but I've heard it.

Given the shortage of units being discussed in the Northumberland line thread, I can certainly see Northern wanting more 158s to bolster this and/or other routes. Could we get a situation where the 24 units are divided between the 2 based on whose needs are greatest? I can see Northern getting a more favourable deal out of the TfW 158s when considering GWR are getting the 175s.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The ROSCO would prefer all the TfW cl.158 units to be with one user and the DfT seem to agree with them. They were slated by the DfT for Northern and not for GWR.

I suspect that is still the case and they will be going to Northern in due course.

 

[brad465]

The ROSCO would prefer all the TfW cl.158 units to be with one user and the DfT seem to agree with them. They were slated by the DfT for Northern and not for GWR.

I suspect that is still the case and they will be going to Northern in due course.

Are they going to be a pure fleet boost, or will some existing stock (like the handful of 155s) be binned off in the process, similar to how the 175s are both increasing the fleet size and seeing off the Castle HST sets?

 

[Rich McLean]

The ROSCO would prefer all the TfW cl.158 units to be with one user and the DfT seem to agree with them. They were slated by the DfT for Northern and not for GWR.

I suspect that is still the case and they will be going to Northern

Are they going to be a pure fleet boost, or will some existing stock (like the handful of 155s) be binned off in the process, similar to how the 175s are both increasing the fleet size and seeing off the Castle HST sets?

I would imagine they will end up allocated to Heaton, so all Perkins engined units are in one place, releasing 156s to boost capacity elsewhere.

 

[Rail Quest]

What would the situation be with the unique cabs of the TfW units? In the event they transferred to Northern, I'd assume either the additional equipment is removed (though I'm not sure how much equipment would need to be binned) or Northern drivers who'd need to sign them would receive additional training to accommodate the differences. If the latter is possible, surely that would be a less costly option?

 

[DanNCL]

It doesn't quite confine the Perkins engined units all in one place as there's some with EMR, but it would put most of them together. Heaton seems the logical destination but replacement of the 156s there by 158s would only work if either some 156s were retained for the Cumbrian Coast or the diagrams were re-worked to use Newton Heath/Allerton units on the Cumbrian Coast instead of Heaton units.

 

[Rich McLean]

It doesn't quite confine the Perkins engined units all in one place as there's some with EMR, but it would put most of them together. Heaton seems the logical destination but replacement of the 156s there by 158s would only work if either some 156s were retained for the Cumbrian Coast or the diagrams were re-worked to use Newton Heath/Allerton units on the Cumbrian Coast instead of Heaton units.

EIther/Or would work.

 

[Halish Railway]

What would the situation be with the unique cabs of the TfW units? In the event they transferred to Northern, I'd assume either the additional equipment is removed (though I'm not sure how much equipment would need to be binned) or Northern drivers who'd need to sign them would receive additional training to accommodate the differences. If the latter is possible, surely that would be a less costly option?

Or if the cabs are that much of an issue they could use them as centre coaches to lengthen some of the Perkins units to three coaches. Yes you lose the standardisation of two carriage trains but having three car units as an option would be very sensible for routes around the North East where two carriages isn’t enough but four is too many.

(Of course you’d have to change the gangway fitting on the driving end on the ex-TfW units).

 

[Rail Quest]

Or if the cabs are that much of an issue they could use them as centre coaches to lengthen some of the Perkins units to three coaches. Yes you lose the standardisation of two carriage trains but having three car units as an option would be very sensible for routes around the North East where two carriages isn’t enough but four is too many.

(Of course you’d have to change the gangway fitting on the driving end on the ex-TfW units).

Great idea!

 

[sprinterguy]

Or if the cabs are that much of an issue they could use them as centre coaches to lengthen some of the Perkins units to three coaches. Yes you lose the standardisation of two carriage trains but having three car units as an option would be very sensible for routes around the North East where two carriages isn’t enough but four is too many.

(Of course you’d have to change the gangway fitting on the driving end on the ex-TfW units).

You could certainly do so with some of the ex-TfW units, and I'd agree that it'd be beneficial for a number of North East services currently running as 2-car sets, but not with all of them, as the number of TfW units outnumbers Heaton's total Perkins allocation, even without splitting them down to individual coaches.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2025 ==

It doesn't quite confine the Perkins engined units all in one place as there's some with EMR, but it would put most of them together. Heaton seems the logical destination but replacement of the 156s there by 158s would only work if either some 156s were retained for the Cumbrian Coast or the diagrams were re-worked to use Newton Heath/Allerton units on the Cumbrian Coast instead of Heaton units.

There are fewer TfW 158s than the total number of Heaton allocated 156s, so some of the latter would need to be retained anyway, so that should still work out.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Just a note, TFW have had the lease on the 158’s extended for another 2 years, and there’s no guarantee that it won't be extended again.

 

[tfw756rider]

Just a note, TFW have had the lease on the 158’s extended for another 2 years, and there’s no guarantee that it won't be extended again.

So the Cambrian won't switch from 158s to 197s until at least 2027? And will the 158s be maintained better (past being "safe") for the next two years?

As you may well know, they've been in a bit of a rubbish state internally lately, considering they were supposedly last refurbished in 2020 (albeit not with the intention of staying with Transport for Wales as long as they have/will, obviously). Loose base seat cushions, "window out of use", all sorts of other things, just generally poor interior condition. At least one vehicle of one unit (I can't remember which) even has a section of stapled-in black carpet.

 

[D365]

Angel Trains has previously indicated that the now-obsolete Ansaldo ETCS will be removed from the TfW Class 158s before they are re-leased.

 

[Lurcheroo]

So the Cambrian won't switch from 158s to 197s until at least 2027?

TFW have said publicly that the earliest they will be in service on the Cambrian is January 2026.

They are already maintained as best as they can be. But they’re having terrible issues getting parts. Stuff has to be made to order which means expensive and long lead times.
They were indeed refurbished.
Yes the carpet was damaged so a section had to be replaced. I would think it is secured down using an adhesive, the staples will just be the ensure it doesn’t start lifting at the edges and get pulled up.

 

[tfw756rider]

TFW have said publicly that the earliest they will be in service on the Cambrian is January 2026.

They are already maintained as best as they can be. But they’re having terrible issues getting parts. Stuff has to be made to order which means expensive and long lead times.
They were indeed refurbished.
Yes the carpet was damaged so a section had to be replaced. I would think it is secured down using an adhesive, the staples will just be the ensure it doesn’t start lifting at the edges and get pulled up.

I replied in the 197 thread

Ah yeah, I can appreciate that they're doing what they can with what they can get hold of and I guess they'd be even worse if that wasn't the case.

I've also heard that the refurbishment wasn't of the highest quality, so hopefully the 197s will stay in a better state for longer.

Thanks for the detailed explanation about the fastening of the carpet, that makes sense

Hopefully, when these 158s do eventually go to Northern (or whoever), they serve them well (until they're replaced by new trains).

 

[craigybagel]

What would the situation be with the unique cabs of the TfW units? In the event they transferred to Northern, I'd assume either the additional equipment is removed (though I'm not sure how much equipment would need to be binned) or Northern drivers who'd need to sign them would receive additional training to accommodate the differences. If the latter is possible, surely that would be a less costly option?

ETCS can be switched off with the flick of a switch, and it reverts to being a normal 158, albeit with a smaller speedometer than on an unmodified unit. That said, the equipment isn't treated any differently on our traction cards; TfW drivers are free to drive any type of 158, and some of them were still driving GWR's units until fairly recently.

I think it has been stated separately though that the owners plan to remove the equipment before passing the units onto their next operator.

 

[Rail Quest]

ETCS can be switched off with the flick of a switch, and it reverts to being a normal 158, albeit with a smaller speedometer than on an unmodified unit. That said, the equipment isn't treated any differently on our traction cards; TfW drivers are free to drive any type of 158, and some of them were still driving GWR's units until fairly recently.

I think it has been stated separately though that the owners plan to remove the equipment before passing the units onto their next operator.

Ahh interesting, thanks for the info!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Given the shortage of units being discussed in the Northumberland line thread, I can certainly see Northern wanting more 158s to bolster this and/or other routes. Could we get a situation where the 24 units are divided between the 2 based on whose needs are greatest?

Given that the TfW class 158s are Perkins-engined units, it would probably be better to keep them together and, if nowhere needs all 24, to have whoever takes them cascade some more-standard 158s onwards (eg. I think GWR has standardised on the 350hp Cummins variant of 158s).

What would the situation be with the unique cabs of the TfW units? In the event they transferred to Northern, I'd assume either the additional equipment is removed (though I'm not sure how much equipment would need to be binned) or Northern drivers who'd need to sign them would receive additional training to accommodate the differences. If the latter is possible, surely that would be a less costly option?

ATW borrowed a 3-car GWR 158 for a day/weekend once or twice so presumably there is no problem with drivers of TfW 158s also being able to drive a non-ETCS 158.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Mar 2025 ==

So the Cambrian won't switch from 158s to 197s until at least 2027?

I understand that 31 TfW 150/2s are now leased until 31/03/2027 and the 24 class 158s until 30/04/2027 - given what has been said on other toipcs regarding exams on the 150/2s it is far from certain whether any of those units will still be working for TfW by then. There's also the possibility of sub-leases to move stock sooner if TfW are finished with them before the lease ends - I'm pretty sure TfW are also still leasing the 170s (until 2033 or longer) but they are now sub-leased to EMR.

Personally though, since we're in the speculative section, I would just try to get class 197s onto a Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury shuttle every two hours (to help cover for poor availability of 158s after two were damaged in a collision) and leave the other hours (Birmingham and Pwllheli workings) in the hands of the 158s.

 

[Siemens Staines]

ATW borrowed a 3-car GWR 158 for a day/weekend once or twice so presumably there is no problem with drivers of TfW 158s also being able to drive a non-ETCS 158.

Until recently, two GWR 158s stabled on Canton on Saturday night / Sunday morning. I may be wrong, and someone please correct me if I am, but I don't think that GWR drivers sign the road on to Canton and that these ECS trains were worked by TfW drivers on behalf of GWR, which would confirm this point.

 

[craigybagel]

Until recently, two GWR 158s stabled on Canton on Saturday night / Sunday morning. I may be wrong, and someone please correct me if I am, but I don't think that GWR drivers sign the road on to Canton and that these ECS trains were worked by TfW drivers on behalf of GWR, which would confirm this point.

They were. There was a link of TfW drivers at Cardiff that signed Bristol (and at over point, beyond) and worked services on behalf of GWR. That ended with the introduction of Turbos.

That said, in theory any TfW driver could work any GWR (or other TOC's) 158, and one did end up on a Manchester service one day when GWR were on strike.

 

[Kite159]

More units for the Northern Blackhole?

@craigybagel I recall during one GWR strike a GWR 158 ended up on a TfW service to Swansea from Cardiff

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They were. There was a link of TfW drivers at Cardiff that signed Bristol (and at over point, beyond) and worked services on behalf of GWR. That ended with the introduction of Turbos.

That said, in theory any TfW driver could work any GWR (or other TOC's) 158, and one did end up on a Manchester service one day when GWR were on strike.

When was that?

 

[craigybagel]

More units for the Northern Blackhole?

@craigybagel I recall during one GWR strike a GWR 158 ended up on a TfW service to Swansea from Cardiff

Correct. I think it was an event day that coincided with a GWR strike day and it was deemed in everyone's best interests to reduce the load on TFW's regular services.

When was that?

I can't remember the exact date, but it was about 6 years ago I think. From what I remember, the unit didn't actually make it all the way to Manchester; there was disruption on the day and it got turned back early. But it was regular TfW crews who worked it.

At the end of the day, it's really not hard to read an analogue speedometer instead of a digital one, and that's pretty much the only difference for driving a 158 without ETCS. It's slightly more complicated the other way around; a driver from another TOC switching to a TfW 158 would struggle as the unit won't more than 2 feet unless you properly set up ETCS, even on conventionally signalled routes - unless you find the switch to isolate it.

TfW 158 training for drivers even briefly covers the differences between Perkins and Cummins engined units (despite only using the former).

 

[Llanigraham]

Correct. I think it was an event day that coincided with a GWR strike day and it was deemed in everyone's best interests to reduce the load on TFW's regular services.

I can't remember the exact date, but it was about 6 years ago I think. From what I remember, the unit didn't actually make it all the way to Manchester; there was disruption on the day and it got turned back early. But it was regular TfW crews who worked it.

At the end of the day, it's really not hard to read an analogue speedometer instead of a digital one, and that's pretty much the only difference for driving a 158 without ETCS. It's slightly more complicated the other way around; a driver from another TOC switching to a TfW 158 would struggle as the unit won't more than 2 feet unless you properly set up ETCS, even on conventionally signalled routes - unless you find the switch to isolate it.

TfW 158 training for drivers even briefly covers the differences between Perkins and Cummins engined units (despite only using the former).

Didn't that "problem" used to show itself when they passed Woofferton Junct Box and some units closed down, especially in the early evening?

 

[craigybagel]

Didn't that "problem" used to show itself when they passed Woofferton Junct Box and some units closed down, especially in the early evening?

That was part of the issue there alright; the only way to clear the fault caused by picking up signals from the radio transmitting centre next door was to reboot the whole system, as though you'd just keyed into the cab, and set it up from scratch. This usually took about 2 minutes. Unfortunately, the easy fix of driving through the area with ETCS isolated wasn't an option as whilst there is a switch to isolate it available to drivers as I mentioned earlier, it requires a special key only issued to fitters to reinstate it again.

 

[thealexweb]

A few months didn’t we have recurring rumours of Northern expressing interested in the TfW 158s as a replacement that are going off lease later this year. That sounds like a lot more viable than returning out of use stock to service.

 

[T74]

A few months didn’t we have recurring rumours of Northern expressing interested in the TfW 158s as a replacement that are going off lease later this year. That sounds like a lot more viable than returning out of use stock to service.

A few months didn’t we have recurring rumours of Northern expressing interested in the TfW 158s as a replacement that are going off lease later this year. That sounds like a lot more viable than returning out of use stock to service.

the tfw 158s are defo going to northern I know a driver who works for northern and was told they getting some by December if not b4

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2025 ==

The tfw 158s are defo going to northern I know a driver who works for them and was told they are getting some from December if not b4

 

[GhostManDN91]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2025 ==

The tfw 158s are defo going to northern I know a driver who works for them and was told they are getting some from December if not b4

Any idea if the TfW 158s are being used as extra stock or to replace existing trains?

 

[158822]

This will almost certainly be delayed as has been previously discussed in this thread the TfW 158s don’t go off lease for a while now.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2025 ==

The tfw 158s are defo going to northern I know a driver who works for them and was told they are getting some from December if not b4