Should Scotrail have ordered 802s instead of HSTs?

[Bletchleyite]

An 80x really is very close to being a bimode 444, to be honest. The ambiance is very similar.

 

[supervc-10]

About twenty years too late with the design unfortunately. I do think an ac version might have been a good option for Liverpool Street to Norwich back in the 2000s though.

Oh I don't mean specifically a Desiro

Just the general layout/setup of the 444. A flat fronted 5-car unit, doors at the ends of the cars, 23m long vehicles, 100-110mph max speed. Designed right a common platform could be used with a doors-at-thirds layout as well for a number of other operators whilst maintaining a common mechanical/electrical setup.

An 80x really is very close to being a bimode 444, to be honest. The ambiance is very similar.

I'd say the 444 has better seats
But yes I'd overall agree - a similar setup. But the 80x has the bodyshell built to 140mph standards, with a more streamlined end taking up more space. A 110mph certified bodyshell could be lighter and allow more usable space inside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh I don't mean specifically a Desiro

Just the general layout/setup of the 444. A flat fronted 5-car unit, doors at the ends of the cars, 23m long vehicles, 100-110mph max speed. Designed right a common platform could be used with a doors-at-thirds layout as well for a number of other operators whilst maintaining a common mechanical/electrical setup.


I'd say the 444 has better seats
But yes I'd overall agree - a similar setup. But the 80x has the bodyshell built to 140mph standards, with a more streamlined end taking up more space. A 110mph certified bodyshell could be lighter and allow more usable space inside.

I'd agree on the seats.

I do wonder if Hitachi will bid an AT200 bimode, which would be exactly what you're suggesting - basically an 80x but top speed 110mph and gangwayed cab ends. ScotRail wouldn't often need to run 10-car services, but it'd be handy to be able to do it on occasion.

 

[Meerkat]

An 80x really is very close to being a bimode 444, to be honest. The ambiance is very similar.

Not sure I agree - the 444s are great with their vertical sides feeling spacious and so much glass you get a great view (if a bit rippled).

 

[MarkyT]

Not sure I agree - the 444s are great with their vertical sides feeling spacious and so much glass you get a great view (if a bit rippled).

Agreed. When I was commuting between Basingstoke and Waterloo in the early 2000s I usually tried to catch a 444 if possible, usually on a Portsmouth or Soton semi via Eastleigh, especially going home. After a hot and sweaty day in the office, the always reliable aircon in that big, bright, red upholstered standard class cabin was just luxury. I don't dislike 80xs, but the 444s really seemed a step change to me at the time. I actively avoided class 442s then. They were becoming very tired and threadbare inside with a pervasive fusty smell and unreliable air con. The seats were too low, raked back and heavily padded for my liking and I think were the main source of the Mk1-like smell! I much preferred the WoE 159s which had been refurbed more recently with a bright interior and good seats. The early Desiro engineering design is rather dated today of course. Bodyshells and bogies are considered overly heavy compared to later generations and the high floors couldn't accommodate level boarding at 3ft platforms which is likely to be a future requirement for many new fleet orders. An interior feel as classy as the 144s could be recreated in a new bodyshell design of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For what it's worth the 397 is probably even closer to being a "Class 344" than the 80x - same big windows and feeling of spaciousness albeit an iffy ride at times - I'd be more than happy with these for ScotRail in a bi-mode version (which will already exist because LNER have ordered some).

 

[MarkyT]

For what it's worth the 397 is probably even closer to being a "Class 344" than the 80x - same big windows and feeling of spaciousness albeit an iffy ride at times - I'd be more than happy with these for ScotRail in a bi-mode version (which will already exist because LNER have ordered some).

I've not ridden one of these, but from photos, the windows look bigger and lower than the Hitachis. A rationale for narrow-depth windows set at a higher level was established for later Mk2s and subsequent designs by BR. The measure was claimed to reduce the perception of speed and possible nausea. While that phenomenon may be relevant for very fast trains on HS lines, I think its importance was probably exaggerated at UK classic intercity speeds. Voyagers/Meridians also have taller and lower windows than many other 125mph-capable UK trains; their interior ambiance is adversely affected by the tapered tilting bodyshell profile however.

 

[Mikey C]

I've only been on one 397 journey, they are superficially nice, but I was shocked by how badly they ride. The TPE seats weren't great either, but different ones can be specced, whereas the poor ride seems more engrained with the CAF products.