Passengers forcing their way off stranded trains

[Old Timer]

The TOC will lose and the PR response, FATAL to the TOC that does it. :roll:

Oh in THAT case then we must let things stay as they are, until of course we end up with a handful of people wiped out.

Of course that wont be as FATAL to the TOC as a Prosecution for detraining on the basis of your logic then ?.

That is the same attitude that would result in NO prosecutions for fare evasion, smoking in Underground station, trespassing, etc, etc.

I mean a prosecution for the purpose of maintaining saftey, well how awful.:roll:

 

[bnm]

No offense meant, but, again from personal experience, the majority of staff working on the railways are hardly in the genius category !

Always be wary of statements starting 'No offence meant, but.....' As they invariably are offensive. As yours is. As for 'majority', I take it you've compiled robust statistical data on the IQ of rail staff to back that statement up?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From an Industry point of view, ALL parties need to get their act together fast over this.

Hammond needs to get a grip of the MoJ and the BTP

Teresa May needs to get a hold of the Media and give them a bloody good kicking over how they are reporting this.

RSSB / Network Rail need to look at how we can keep trains moving forward to reach a station or an access point.

ATOC needs to get a standardised announcement prepared that Train Crew can use to warn people NOT to disembark.

HMRI (ORR for the pedants) need to give authority for the Traction Current to remain ON when people deliberately disembark.

BTP Chief Constable need to be hauled in and told to prosecute ruthlessly.

Home Office need to pass a suitable mandatory prison sentence - WITH NO EXCEPTIONS

Magistrates need to be given a bloody good kicking and told to deal properly with Railway Crime.

NR / TOCs should consider issuing damages claims in the Civil Court against individuals who have detrained.

You forgot, 'Bring back National Service, the birch, hanging.....'

 

[ANorthernGuard]

No offense meant, but, again from personal experience, the majority of staff working on the railways are hardly in the genius category !

Be careful not to trip over your IQ on your way out!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is a specific questiom that I would like to ask concerning the 323 electric units which sometimes see passengers waiting for quite a while for the doors to open when the train has arrived at a station in the Greater Manchester area. Is there a fault with the door opening mechanism that has began to appear on those units?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

There is a specific questiom that I would like to ask concerning the 323 electric units which sometimes see passengers waiting for quite a while for the doors to open when the train has arrived at a station in the Greater Manchester area. Is there a fault with the door opening mechanism that has began to appear on those units?

Nope Local doors are a bit stiff for us to open so adds a couple of seconds..nothing more

 

[Old Timer]

You forgot, 'Bring back National Service, the birch, hanging.....'

Easy to criticise, harder to make constructive suggestions.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I'm surprised the RAIB hasn't investigated all these occurrances lately of passengers detraining themselves.

Oh yes - they won't do anything until someone is killed. About as pro-active as the rest of the industry in dealing with things.

 

[yorkie]

People are not stupid, they know what a third rail is and to walk on the side of the track where the third rail isn't.

How long are they supposed to wait without any information?
2 hours?
10 hours?
2 days?
a week?.

Do you want the TOCs likely answer? In which case, probably 10 hours

Given that people have been criticised for disembarking after around 6 hours, then I can only assume 10 hours is about the limit. Needless to say, I would not be prepared to wait that long.

http://twitpic.com/5hrb0s

I think most people can make up their own minds based on that photo.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

By the way, the windows were open on the train in question:
http://twitpic.com/5hrb0s

I'm surprised that in the subsequent three pages of posts, nobody seems to have pointed out that these people are evacuating on the juice side of the train... Look closely at the rail nearest their feet...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Do you want the TOCs likely answer? In which case, probably 10 hours

Given that people have been criticised for disembarking after around 6 hours, then I can only assume 10 hours is about the limit. Needless to say, I would not be prepared to wait that long.


I think most people can make up their own minds based on that photo.

so its all the TOC's fault..ok then

TOC's main interest in a situation like this is safety pure and simple, is it nice? No..is it Fair? No, But it is there for a reason. It is not up to You or anyone else to put anyone at risk, say for instance you were the first one out of that train and something happened to them would YOU take the responsibilty??, if you were "leading the way" do YOU take responsibilty for there lives??, on this forum there are alot of impressionable young lads/lasses who need to make absolutely clear to them not only is it unacceptable but totally unsafe to leave a train like in the photo shown and as a mod you have a responsibility to enforce that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm surprised that in the subsequent three pages of posts, nobody seems to have pointed out that these people are evacuating on the juice side of the train... Look closely at the rail nearest their feet...

good spot..just confirms the argument against this dangerous exercise

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

best we get on the Wigan Wallgate routes is a 156 with working toilets

If some of our forum posters had their way (e.g. Skelmersdale proposals), you would be seeing Merseyrail electrics in the bay platforms at Wigan Wallgate

 

[Bedpan]

I'm surprised the RAIB hasn't investigated all these occurrances lately of passengers detraining themselves.

Oh yes - they won't do anything until someone is killed. About as pro-active as the rest of the industry in dealing with things.

They're investigating the Kentish Town incident and nobody was killed (or hurt) there.

see http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/110526_St_Pancras_International.cfm

 

[Surreytraveller]

The train companies need to learn how to deal with these incidents professionally and effeciently, otherwise passengers will just continue fending for themselves. Within London, it will always be worth detraining yourself, as you're going to be near a bus stop to continue your journey.

 

[moggie]

The TOC will lose and the PR response, FATAL to the TOC that does it.

Really? You seem very confident - maybe you could offer yourself up as the test case?:roll:

As for the PR - if it's a toss up between a court case for pax being prosecuted for decending onto the track or a fatality or some impatient loon who has got themselves electrocuted /run over I think we can all work out where the TOC/NR lawyers would want to be. Either way the media will get it wrong as they usually do.

Re the terrorist scenario - perfect example - there's a bomb threat, trains need to be moved pronto and some t*t and his mates are running around the railway like some clutch of headless chickens - what would you do next being as you represent the side that knows best? You decide!

Like I said - if the TOC loses the court case - it will be ALL pax who will ultimately pay the price in higher fares to fund some knee jerk reaction prompted by the case. Maybe it's the best thing that could happen so long as the TOC PR makes it clear what cost is apportioned to address the issue of railway ramblers.

 

[yorkie]

...on this forum there are alot of impressionable young lads/lasses who need to make absolutely clear to them not only is it unacceptable but totally unsafe to leave a train like in the photo shown and as a mod you have a responsibility to enforce that....

I am not prepared to read every post and there should be no expectation of that! If you are unhappy with a particular post, then use the reporting system (but this is for genuine cases only where there is a genuine concern about a post, not just for a disagreement over opinion).

so its all the TOC's fault..ok then

Is it? I am unsure what "all" refers to, but just in case there is any confusion, my post did not touch the issue of 'fault', for any incident.

It is not up to You or anyone else to put anyone at risk,

In an ideal world, no-one should be put in a situation of "risk" by any individual or organisation. Risk could include potentially exhaustion or dehydration, in addition to the risks you identify.

Like I said - if the TOC loses the court case - it will be ALL pax who will ultimately pay the price in higher fares to fund some knee jerk reaction prompted by the case. Maybe it's the best thing that could happen so long as the TOC PR makes it clear what cost is apportioned to address the issue of railway ramblers.

Is there any evidence of fares actually going up based specifically on the result of any particular court case? or is this just a statement designed to scare people?

 

[Surreytraveller]

They're investigating the Kentish Town incident and nobody was killed (or hurt) there.

see http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/110526_St_Pancras_International.cfm

They're only investigating that incident because the train moved. Even the RAIB don't care about stranded passengers potentially having their health affected by boiling trains that were badly designed and train companies that treat them with contempt.

 

[bnm]

Easy to criticise, harder to make constructive suggestions.

I'm broadly in agreement with the sentiment. Joe Public needs to made aware of the dangers, and the authorities should consider stronger warnings and deterrents. As well as a few prosecutions.

Just not in agreement about Teresa May dictating to the press, ORR mandating that the juice rails are not isolated during unplanned evacs, or mandatory prison sentences for those that take it upon themselves to bail out.

 

[ungreat]

Exactly.

People like this have the brain capacity of a lobster. They don't care about anybody else, all that matters is them, them and them.

And that quote sums up ALL and any passenger action like this....me me me me me me me me me me..oh look Im so important Mr Smiths paperclips are late.NEVER is it done for the good of all,only the one

 

[313103]

As an aside to what has taken place on yesterdays farce on South Eastern. Today i was working a train from Richmond to Stratford that got held up for 65 minutes due to a operational incident at Bollo Lane Level Crossing.

Once information was found out about what was going on i made an announcement and kept doing this about every five to ten minutes, as well as walking through the train reassuring everyone on board that we are doing our best, but literally the driver and myself could do absolutely nothing as decisions made about where to go do not come from us and as someone alluded to earlier the process is long winded (one person after another, after another) before the staff on the ground get to know. Any suggestions by traincrew are often met with derision, yet are then carried out by the toc as if it was their idea.

The most important thing is keep passengers informed even if you have spout the same old rubbish. A person touched on the as to why it wasnt announced how long it was going to be. I have learnt my lesson from this i never give a time and the reason being is that passengers treat it as an EXACT time and if it isnt they will do what they wish. I ften when asked the question how long is this going to last with 'How long is a piece of string'?

With regard London Overgrounds incident the company decided to do what the traincrew suggested (but only 20 minutes after!) and return to back to Richmond. I gave passengers the details of LOs customer services, along with the email and also London Travel watch. Whilst not everyone was happy at least i had couple who actually came up and thanked me for 1 giving out information and 2 for being honest and upfront with them.

I supposed it helped that the 378s air con kept evryonepretty cool helped a great deal.

 

[Eagle]

Reading this thread, I am reminded of this (1:56 on and variously throughout the episode)

It has happened to me that I've been stuck on a train in 30+ °C heat. It was between Canley and Coventry and we were immediately behind a broken-down and completely immobile freighter which was just west of Coventry North Junction and there was no way we could overtake. It took the signallers 90 minutes or so to allow us to reverse to Canley (and the train a mile behind us to Tile Hill)—I know it's a two-track railway with 7 or 8tph each way, but still, an hour and a half? To be fair to him the guard was coming out keeping us updated, even if the information was the same each time.

And yet, despite the heat, the length of time and that we were only perhaps a five-minute walk from the end of Canley platforms, no-one bailed. Not a soul.

 

[Crossover]

I'm surprised that in the subsequent three pages of posts, nobody seems to have pointed out that these people are evacuating on the juice side of the train... Look closely at the rail nearest their feet...

Having just been reading through this I was going to mention it if you hadn't but that's damn close to the power rail!

 

[455refurb]

To be honest you can't really blame the passengers in this incident (or the last one) for getting off the train, I wouldn't have done but I can understand why they did. From the photo posted earlier the train was barely 60 yards outside the station.

There's no Alpha male about it, false bravado, "want want want" etc, simply a desire to escape a 35+degree oven having been given little or no information of when help will be at hand.

If there's a genuine emergency talk to the train crew or dial 999 but there will be little sympathy when it turns out it's just a temper tantrum with no mummy around to make it better.

Which is, I'm afraid, an extremely poor, unacceptable attitude to display towards a paying passenger in your care who may be frightened, suffering any number of complications, claustrophobia, diabetes etc the list goes on.

The fault is with the way the industry is these days and lies with the TOC's and Network Rail for not having adequate provision to deal with incidents like this. Procedurally the situation should have been managed such that the passengers were kept informed at all times and controlled so that they wouldn't have felt they needed to escape. In my opinion it is simply unacceptable for passengers to be abandoned on a stranded train for that length of time in that amount of heat with so little information.

As stated - I would not decamp from the train without authority - but I can well understand why people did. There needs to be a top down review of how TOC's and NR deal with situations like this, and on the BTP side how they respond to genuine cases of wilful negligence, damage & trespass.

Until that takes place and the various links in the chain are properly joined up from traincrew to NR engineer fixing the fault, this will keep happening, and the passengers can't be blamed for it.

 

[O L Leigh]

What I will address is the "reasonableness" of the actions of the passengers. This topic has cropped up time and again and unfortunately opinion falls into one of only two possible camps. Either the passengers acted sensibly and rationally or they were blethering idiots who unwittingly made their own bad situation worse by impeding the efforts of the railways to deal with it. I know where I sit in this discussion.

There are only two times when you should decamp from a train, and they are a) when instructed to do so by the traincrew, and b) in an emergency. For clarity, there really is no discussion about what constitutes an emergency. If the train is on fire, has been involved in a major accident or there is a tiger loose in first class (oh god, how I wish...) then that is an emergency. Being stopped due to a power failure is not an emergency, no matter how unpleasant it might become inside the train. Clearly these passengers SHOULD have stayed put, been stoic and waited for the cavalry. As I have said on a previous occasion, spilling out all over the railway is only going to result in all train movements being stopped and delay the arrival of the promised help.

The problem is that when you find yourself in such a difficult situation you really are at the mercy of your passengers and there is very little you can do to prevent them taking matters into their own hands or to contain them once they have. You have to do what you can to keep them on-side for as long as humanly possible, and that means being honest, showing them you're doing all you can to help them and explaining to them the consequences of their actions. These things can be done without recourse to control or the signaller, but even so you're going to be facing a mountain. All these passengers want to be somewhere and want to know when they're going to get there, and you're not going to be able to tell them.

And this brings me back to a point I have already laboured. Mass break-outs from stranded trains and misuse of on-train equipment (in this instance, the emergency door egress handles to get some fresh air) makes it harder for railstaff to get the train moved and delays the arrival of whatever assistance is required. As with the break-out at Foxton following a dewirement, people getting out onto the tracks just turns an already bad situation worse and everyone suffers. Irrespective of whatever the Sub Standard may say on the matter, the quickest way to resolve a stranding is for the passengers to cooperate with the traincrew. Taking matters into their own hands, no matter how rational or understandable this may be, only serves to introduce further delay, discomfort and misery.

The point that I feel I am only slowly getting across to people with regard to break-outs is the impact it has on the attempts to bring speedy relief to the largest number of people. I couldn't give a stuff if a punter wilfully ignores me by going for a stroll and then falling down an open drain. That's entirely his/her concern.

However, I will say it again, people wandering about on the infrastructure will result in a caution at best and more likely a line closure. If there is an attempt to bring up an assisting train this will be thwarted meaning that it takes much longer to resolve the problems. That was certainly the case with this incident, as passenger action certainly delayed the train's eventual movement to Kentish Town and endangered all those standing near the open doors. Had they not taken matters into their own hands they would have got to Kentish Town much sooner.

Just saves me typing it all out again.

What concerns me more is that the press coverage that has been accorded to these break-outs is only going to make future break-outs much more likely. Incidents that should be merely inconvenient are quickly going to spiral out of control if passengers start deciding that they know best and acting against the instructions of the traincrew. Lets be under no illusions, no driver or guard wants to be stuck somewhere for hours in a failed train either.

Prescient.

O L Leigh

 

[EM2]

I am pretty certain that on every train emergency notice, there is a sentence warning that it is safer to stay on the train than to disembark. As was proved by the HST power car fire near Slough (if I recall correctly) some years back when someone bailed out into the path of an Up Service.

I'm sure O L Leigh can provide the exact wording but on NXEA 315's it's along the lines of:
'You should only leave the train in an emergency, and only then under the direction of a member of staff. In almost all circumstances, it is safer to stay on the train'.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Hence why window smash hammers have been removed, as the RSSB found it was safer to remain on the train.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Be careful not to trip over your IQ on your way out!

I'll do my best !

BTW : I am entitled to, but never use 'Dr' before my name, as I hold a PhD in Economics. I wouldn't want to be mistaken for an MD on a broken-down train, with all the confusion that it could cause !

 

[185]

Hence why window smash hammers have been removed, as the RSSB found it was safer to remain on the train.

When it's derailed, crashed & on fire

 

[The Snap]

Hence why window smash hammers have been removed, as the RSSB found it was safer to remain on the train.

What about if a train derails and rolls? For example, the Pendolino at Grayrigg. The carriages were in very good condition considering they had gone down the embankment on their sides - I imagine not every window smashed of its own accord. Hence, in this situation, how is one meant to break a window in order to escape, when surely it is safer to NOT remain on the train (which at this point is on its side in a field)?

 

[OxtedL]

It has been suggested that many of those who lost their lives in Ufton Nervet died because they were flung through windows which were able to smash in the crash. Those on board were then unable to escape through the remaining windows, as the hammers were useless (or something like that).

The decision was taken that it was much, much safer to have strong windows to contain passengers in the event of a roll event. There are already at least 2 exits from every coach, so it is going to be the correct decision in all but the most extreme of events.

 

[The Snap]

No offense meant, but, again from personal experience, the majority of staff working on the railways are hardly in the genius category !

What an absolutely absurd comment to make. There are a large number of very, very well educated people in the railway industry, whether it be in the TOC or infrastructure side of things.

You have a PhD in economics? That must mean you're a banker or stock broker then? Which means you're responsible for the recession and thousands of job losses? Thought so. No offence like!

It has been suggested that many of those who lost their lives in Ufton Nervet died because they were flung through windows which were able to smash in the crash. Those on board were then unable to escape through the remaining windows, as the hammers were useless (or something like that).

The decision was taken that it was much, much safer to have strong windows to contain passengers in the event of a roll event. There are already at least 2 exits from every coach, so it is going to be the correct decision in all but the most extreme of events.

The Pendolino windows were particularly strong and many didn't appear to smash (one of the several design/construction properties of the unit that saved so many lives). From you've said, passengers are expected to clamber along the carriage, into the vestibule and out of the door as opposed to breaking a window?
I suppose that's a compromise though - clamber to the door because the windows are too tough to smash, or possibly go straight through the window when the train derails because the glass is weak. I would suggest the former is most desirable in that case!

I suppose I can accept the RSSB reasoning now. Cheers .