London terminals transfers - why not by bus?

[redreni]

I don't know the answer to your question, but one advantage of walking such a relatively short distance is knowing exactly how long it will take.

Depending how many pubs you stop in, of course.

 

[cjw714]

It will be the usual combination of historical quirk and no desire to change things. At least the tube transfer is included in the train fare, cross-city transfers (except for tickets between two GM stations) in Manchester are not.

I actually can’t think of many interchanges where the bus would be preferable to the tube though, unless you have an aversion to the tube for whatever reason.

Euston-Waterloo was mentioned but that’s a direct tube; King’s Cross-Waterloo is just as easy via the Victoria Line and Bakerloo Line due to the cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus (also an option to avoid the Northern Line from Euston).

I don't have a particular aversion to the tube but I always prefer to do Victoria to Paddington by bus. It's only a few minutes slower, involves a lot less walking and is generally much more pleasant.

 

[Hadders]

Do we actually know that Kings Cross - Euston is quicker walking the whole way?

The answer is 'it depends!'

If walking:
At Kings Cross which platform does your train arrive at?
Are you in a good position for the optimum exit (I aim for the footbridge and exit the station by Platform 9)
Walk through St Pancras, cross Midland Road and walk along Dangoor Walk (beside the Crick Institute)
Walk through the Ossulston Estate
Cross Chalton Street
Walk through Churchway alleyway and up Doric Way then up the steps into Euston
I can walk platform to platform in 8 minutes

If tube:
At Kings Cross position yourself at the very front of the train
Exit through the barriers turn right down the steps to the Underground
At the bottom of the steps turn left and head for the tube ticket hadd, ignoring the sign at the bottom if the steps telling you to turn right for the Victoria Line
Proceed to the southbound Victoria Line, position yourself to get on at carriage 2
Wait up to 2 minutes for a train (you might be luck and there be one int he platform upon arrival)
Exit at Euston fo up two escalators and through the ticket barriers, then up a further escalator to the concourse
The train running time is 1 minute but TfL's journey planner says to allow 12 minutes. In reality you'll probably knock 2-3 minutes off it.

If you follow the signs to the Victoria Line at Kings Cross, rather than taking the shortest route via the tube ticket hall) then walking is faster.
If you're a slow walker or walk along the Euston Road rather than the short cut described above then the tube is likely to be faster.
If you dwadle ont he escalators or are in the wrong position for a speedy exit from teh Victoria Line then I'd say walking would win.

Perhaps we should do a forum race next time we have a meal in the area!

 

[MrJeeves]

Do we actually know that Kings Cross - Euston is quicker walking the whole way? I remember some good natured gentle ribbing for taking the tube between the two on some railforums meetup where I was up against the wall time wise and took the Victoria line. In my head it made sense to save a minute or two but maybe I just deserved the ribbing!

I've done Euston platform to St Pancras Thameslink southbound platform in 9 minutes before, with a suitcase. Maybe add 2 or 3 minutes onto that for getting to King's Cross instead?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've done Euston platform to St Pancras Thameslink southbound platform in 9 minutes before, with a suitcase. Maybe add 2 or 3 minutes onto that for getting to King's Cross instead?

I used to do King’s Cross (arriving in first class, so at the front of the train) to Euston in 10 minutes flat.

I do think the tube would generally be quicker than that, especially if you walk the escalators, but there’s only a matter of seconds in it and you’re more in control on foot.

 

[yorkie]

...Walk through St Pancras, cross Midland Road and walk along Dangoor Walk (beside the Crick Institute)
Walk through the Ossulston Estate
Cross Chalton Street
Walk through Churchway alleyway and up Doric Way then up the steps into Euston...

The absolute shortest route may not appear on Google Maps and might not be immediately obvious (though looking at Open street maps certainly helps), however as long as you go via the back streets and not via Euston Road, that's the main thing. There isn't much traffic, and there aren't hoards of pedestrians in the way. I can also make tight connections going this way, and there is no way I could beat it with the tube.

However, a slow or less mobile walker might be better off with the tube westbound, and the bus eastbound.

 

[Hadders]

Here's a Google Maps link I managed to force from St Pancras Midland Road exit to Euston. To get it to work I had to use a via point to each section shows 4 minutes, total 8 minutes.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/XBzumihRbTg88hWt7?g_st=ic

 

[Watershed]

Here's a Google Maps link I managed to force from St Pancras Midland Road exit to Euston. To get it to work I had to use a via point to each section shows 4 minutes, total 8 minutes.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/XBzumihRbTg88hWt7?g_st=ic

Unfortunately the route involves passing through the back of the Crick Institute; they seem to have a habit of closing the permissive path at random - despite its opening hours being regulated as a condition of their planning permission. Very frustrating that there's no such thing as public rights of way in London.

You can of course go around the north side of the building, but the extra 2 minutes it takes can be the difference between making a connection and missing it, with 15+ mins to wait until the next train (especially during disruption).

 

[MrJeeves]

Unfortunately the route involves passing through the back of the Crick Institute; they seem to have a habit of closing the permissive path at random - despite its opening hours being regulated as a condition of their planning permission. Very frustrating that there's no such thing as public rights of way in London.

I suppose I've been lucky, having never seen it closed before, even during ongoing construction works!

How have they closed it before? I can't see any gates they could close or lock (except for the vehicle access portion at the south-western end). Have they put up temporary fencing or something similar before?

 

[Haywain]

How have they closed it before? I can't see any gates they could close or lock (except for the vehicle access portion at the south-western end). Have they put up temporary fencing or something similar before?

Temporary fencing on the couple of occasions I've suffered that minor inconvenience. It's been with work going on in the section of Dangoor Walk that isn't separately fenced off. If that happens (and I'm likely to encounter it at the St Pancras end) I just divert straight along Brill Place and Phoenix Road into Eversholt Street.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I didn't even know you could get through that way usually I use the Euston road or Brill Place past the clock pub. I always thought the cross London ticket was valid via any means too, I'm learning alot tonight as someone who uses a cane I usually bus it up to St Pancras/KGX the other way I like to factor in some time to call into the wetherspoons so gently stroll.

I do have my concerns as I'm due to proquire a wheelchair soon as the tube is difficult now let alone on wheels, I'd say go via Willesden Junction but they've hidden their wheelchair ramps and have been refusing to assit as of late and then thats 3 sides of a triangle to Clapham Junction if all did work smoothly.

Minimum connection times have been a bone of contention nationwide, people used that argument with the recent Nottingham footbridge experiment. In a perfect world all things would run smoothly if you have a flexible ticket it makes life alot easier but then you have the cost penalty.

 

[Hadders]

I suppose I've been lucky, having never seen it closed before, even during ongoing construction works!

How have they closed it before? I can't see any gates they could close or lock (except for the vehicle access portion at the south-western end). Have they put up temporary fencing or something similar before?

It was closed recently while roof works were completed on the Crick Institute. In fact there was one weekend where Brill Place was closed as well as Dangoor Walk necessitating a diversion through a park! The works finished a few months back and ntil then I'd never Dangoor Walk be closed since it opened back in 2017.

I'd have thought there was more risk of the route through the Ossulston Estate being closed - that would be a pain!

Strangely enough I was reading about Dangoor Walk on ian visits the other day:

London’s Alleys: Dangoor Walk, NW1

This is a fairly new alley that opened up a route across land that had been closed to the public for over 140 years.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

This is a fairly new alley that opened up a route across land that had been closed to the public for over 140 years.



It sits behind the British Library on land that had been housing but the housing was swept away in the 1880s to construct a huge railway goods yard sitting next to St Pancras station. The Somers Town Goods Depot opened in 1887, and remained in use until the 1960s when cargo deliveries by rail declined thanks to the rise of road traffic and refrigeration, which took away the urgency of daily deliveries for food.

The land remained off limits though until eventually the British Library took over the southern half of the site. The Library had intended to take over the whole goods yard site, but cost overruns on the current library saw its ambitions cut back, leaving a large plot of undeveloped land at the northern side of the old goods yard.

A decade ago, the remaining part of that undeveloped land was developed, for the Francis Crick Institute which carries out medical research, and as part of the agreement for the new building, a new alleyway was created.

This new alley has effectively restored a road that had crossed the site before the land was taken over by the railways, reopening the land once more to the public.

The passageway was opened in June 2017, although the formal ribbon cutting took place in September 2017, and was named after the Dangoor family, in honour of their philanthropic support for the Francis Crick Institute and Cancer Research UK.

The dominant feature of the passage is the looming building of the Francis Crick Institute, in its mix of brown stone-clad walls and bronzed windows lining the whole of the north side of the alley.



At the moment, the south side of the alley is split between parking for the British Library, and a community garden managed by the Story Garden. However, all that will change in a few years time as the British Library has finally secured approval to expand again and will be building a shared use building on the site, which includes space in the basement for Crossrail 2, if that’s ever built.

So what is currently a very open air alley will eventually become more alley-like, as a passage between two very tall buildings.

At the western end, the alley splits in half, with a wide section that can be sealed off for delivery vans to park there, and a narrow more classically alley width passage along the side that’s kept open.

Do note the small sign at the end of the alley, noting that it’s legally private land, so they can close it when they want to.



That said though, this passageway is an example of how councils can, when they want to, ensure there’s public access to spaces that have been closed off — in this case for over a century, and undo the damage caused by previous generations who thought little of sweeping away the housing in favour of a railway depot.

The result though has been a passageway that’s so well used by locals that it’s taken me months of walking past almost every week before I managed to cobble together enough photos of it (almost) empty to write this article.

 

[Egg Centric]

I suppose I've been lucky, having never seen it closed before, even during ongoing construction works!

Quite surprising that - while I do this regularly I still do this probably do this lest than most railforum-ers and it's quite common. Very interesting that it is against the planning terms (although that probably doesn't make much difference - a related example of this reminded by the thread about the Yarmouth railtour is that the Tesco in Ely was allowed to extend its car park at a time when parking in Ely station was free on the condition that rail goers could park there. Now of course they'll get a gazillion pound fine but is anything done about this...?)

 

[Class15]

I've been known to use the 68 / 168 between those two, as a rather pleasanter alternative to the Northern Line when not in a hurry. (Payment wasn't an issue as I had either a Travelcard, or more recently an ENCTS pass.)

Of course it’s worth noting that the 168 no longer exists, and has been replaced by the 1 (still can’t get my head around that bus route number, it just feels odd!) up here. Not sure if that goes to Waterloo though.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Of course it’s worth noting that the 168 no longer exists, and has been replaced by the 1 (still can’t get my head around that bus route number, it just feels odd!) up here. Not sure if that goes to Waterloo though.

Goes all the way to Canada Water

Although I can understand your apprehension to the route it is the loneliest number that you'll ever do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2025 ==

1 bus route

Choose a stop to view live arrivals and status information or add to favourites

tfl.gov.uk

 

[MrJeeves]

It was closed recently while roof works were completed on the Crick Institute. In fact there was one weekend where Brill Place was closed as well as Dangoor Walk necessitating a diversion through a park! The works finished a few months back and ntil then I'd never Dangoor Walk be closed since it opened back in 2017.

Oh, maybe I dodged that closure. I do remember walking down the footpath with scaffolding to the side and above it! It was rather narrow, but still open at that point.

 

[infobleep]

I don't know, but I really can't imagine acceptance or not of Maltese Cross tickets on TfL buses would make the slightest difference given that users of wheelchairs and mobility scooters are already carried free. Your hypothetical case seems like a textbook example of somebody who might well need to allow themselves more than the MCT for this kind of transfer, and that wouldn't change.

I didn't know they were carried for free. That solves the issue then.

 

[Hadders]

Oh, maybe I dodged that closure. I do remember walking down the footpath with scaffolding to the side and above it! It was rather narrow, but still open at that point.

Yes was scaffolding there for a few months, then it was closed completely for a time, mainly during the day and at weekends iirc. The scaffolding's all gone now and things are back to normal.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Unfortunately the route involves passing through the back of the Crick Institute; they seem to have a habit of closing the permissive path at random - despite its opening hours being regulated as a condition of their planning permission. Very frustrating that there's no such thing as public rights of way in London.
[...]

That's incorrect.

The 12 inner London boroughs (+ City of London) are not required to produce or maintain a definitive map. However that does not mean public rights of way do not exist within inner London.

 

[infobleep]

That's incorrect.

The 12 inner London boroughs (+ City of London) are not required to produce or maintain a definitive map. However that does not mean public rights of way do not exist within inner London.

So how do people know where the public rights of way are?

 

[Travelmonkey]

I didn't know they were carried for free. That solves the issue then.

Well when the ramps work, but that's a different debate for elsewhere. Also not that helpful for people with other mobility aids (rollators/crutches/canes)

 

[Watershed]

That's incorrect.

The 12 inner London boroughs (+ City of London) are not required to produce or maintain a definitive map. However that does not mean public rights of way do not exist within inner London.

If you can't show a right of way exists using a definitive map, the landowner could deny its existence - leaving you with the invidious option of pursuing them through Court. So for all practical intents and purposes... they don't really exist.

 

[Belperpete]

I didn't know they were carried for free. That solves the issue then.

This seems to be one of the few entitlements that isn't restricted to either Londoners or English pass holders.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2025 ==

I don't get why TfL don't allow this. It would help with transfers that have to take place when the tube isn't running. It would help people make their connections when there's disruption on the tube. It would have helped a lot when they were working on the escalators at Euston - as it was they tried to suppress demand by having the TfL journey planner tell people going to Euston to get off at Warren St or Euston Square and walk, but they seemed to just accept that people making through National Rail journeys would make their tube transfers as usual. They should have been actively encouraging them to use the bus instead (particularly if transferring between Kings Cross or St Pancras and Euston).

Surely if TfL advice during tube disruption is to use the bus, they should be accepting the + tickets on the bus?

Didn't one of the bombs go off on a bus? Though, of course, I accept these things don't run along rational lines, and there are people who just don't like being underground for too long (or, ideally, at all). People who would take a mainline train and be able to deal with the tunnels, but can't deal with the Underground. Allowing cross-London transfers by bus would help them, too.

Yes, one of the bombs was on a bus. I should imagine that there are people averse to taking buses too. I certainly wouldn't dream of taking heavy luggage on a London bus during the rush hour.

If TfL ever sorts out e-ticket and ITSO acceptance for cross-London transfers, that concern should be reduced dramatically. To make it easy, they could then say you can only use one bus for a cross-London transfer, so there's no question of anyone using it like a PlusBus ticket as a substitute for a Travelcard to get around central London.

Aren't Plusbus tickets only valid for the start or end of your rail journey? It would be useful if you could get them for intermediate places, such as if you are breaking your journey.

A great many short trips within zone 1 made by non-Londoners on the tube would be better made on foot or by bus. But navigation is easier on the tube. I'm all for giving people the option for cross-London transfers, though!

Agreed that it doesn't take as long to walk as many think. I often used to walk between Paddington and St P if I had plenty of time before my booked train. Whether it was good for my health walking through the traffic fumes along Euston Road is another matter. Thanks to those who posted the back way between Euston and St.P. I recall that a number of years ago TfL (I presume) put up some signs for a back route, but the signage got a bit sparse once you were on the route, and I got well lost.

 

[Deerfold]

Aren't Plusbus tickets only valid for the start or end of your rail journey? It would be useful if you could get them for intermediate places, such as if you are breaking your journey.

No. They're valid for the entire day of your rail journey in the defined area.

Many would not be worth it for only 1 or 2 journeys.

 

[Haywain]

Aren't Plusbus tickets only valid for the start or end of your rail journey?

That's the rules, yes.

It would be useful if you could get them for intermediate places, such as if you are breaking your journey.

Break of journey is exercised by so few people that it was probably never considered. However, you might have success asking at a ticket office although there is no entitlement.

 

[redreni]

Aren't Plusbus tickets only valid for the start or end of your rail journey? It would be useful if you could get them for intermediate places, such as if you are breaking your journey.

If you've a point-to-point train ticket then yes, you can only buy PlusBuses for the origin and/or destination, not intermediate stations. (If you have a Ranger or Rover, you can normally buy a PlusBus for any zone where the interchange station - or at least one of them - is within the validity of the Ranger or Rover).

I just meant that, once you have a PlusBus ticket for a place, it's a day ticket valid for unlimited bus journeys within the relevant zone, and I can see why TfL wouldn't want to allow Maltese Cross tickets to be used in the same way in central London. So while we still have paper tickets, they'd be reliant on drivers only accepting them for boarding at or near one of the train stations where you can start a cross-London transfer (and they'd have to be briefed to know which stops along the route they're driving that applies to), they'd have no control over where people got off, and they wouldn't be able to stop people re-using them.

If Maltese Cross tickets were only issued as e-tickets or on ITSO smartcards, then at least TfL could ensure they would only be accepted for one tube transfer or one bus journey. In that case, they wouldn't really need to worry too much about where people got on or off the bus: if they don't travel directly between terminals then they'll have to make their own way or use PAYG when they do eventually want to go to the station to get their train.

Ultimately, as I say, TfL gets paid for these transfers, and if somebody chooses to make the transfer by bus rather than tube that's a win for TfL, because they're forgoing a tube journey for which the Maltese Cross ticket is valid and for which the usual adult fare is £2.80 or £2.90, in favour of something for which the usual adult fare is £1.75.