London terminals transfers - why not by bus?

[edwin_m]

The bus station at Euston is at the station front and couldn't be easier.

I'd certainly not be taking a train between the two stations; as others have said, it's either a case of take the bus, or walk the whole way, nothing else makes sense!

While here if the passenger has an ENCTS pass that covers the fare is ( was ) a ' Maltese Cross ' ticket valid on the bus linking the rail stations?

There's a wider question here of why the "Maltese Cross" transfer is only valid by tube, when the bus is clearly the better option for Euston to Kings Cross. This may also be so for other transfers, particularly for the elderly, infirm, those with small children or heavy luggage or people that just don't like the tube particularly at busy times.

 

[plugwash]

I could see there being concerns about stopping maltese cross tickets from turning into de-facto travelcards. IIRC LU barriers have the ability to write-back to tickets to prevent them being used more than once, but busses don't even have magstripe readers at all.

 

[infobleep]

I remember once going from Euston to Waterloo with some heavy bags. It was a struggle. No doubt the bus would have been easier but it wasn't valid on my ticket so struggle with the underground I did.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Years ago there was serious consideration of something like this (unfortunately I think the context was the 2005 terror attacks which made some wary of Tube travel) - my hazy recollection being the plan was for an inter-termini bus transfer 'add on' to rail tickets. Evidently it never reached the implementation stage.

 

[DelW]

I remember once going from Euston to Waterloo with some heavy bags. It was a struggle. No doubt the bus would have been easier but it wasn't valid on my ticket so struggle with the underground I did.

I've been known to use the 68 / 168 between those two, as a rather pleasanter alternative to the Northern Line when not in a hurry. (Payment wasn't an issue as I had either a Travelcard, or more recently an ENCTS pass.)

 

[Tetchytyke]

It will be the usual combination of historical quirk and no desire to change things. At least the tube transfer is included in the train fare, cross-city transfers (except for tickets between two GM stations) in Manchester are not.

I actually can’t think of many interchanges where the bus would be preferable to the tube though, unless you have an aversion to the tube for whatever reason.

Euston-Waterloo was mentioned but that’s a direct tube; King’s Cross-Waterloo is just as easy via the Victoria Line and Bakerloo Line due to the cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus (also an option to avoid the Northern Line from Euston).

 

[Watershed]

It will be the usual combination of historical quirk and no desire to change things. At least the tube transfer is included in the train fare, cross-city transfers (except for tickets between two GM stations) in Manchester are not.

I actually can’t think of many interchanges where the bus would be preferable to the tube though, unless you have an aversion to the tube for whatever reason.

Euston-Waterloo was mentioned but that’s a direct tube; King’s Cross-Waterloo is just as easy via the Victoria Line and Bakerloo Line due to the cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus (also an option to avoid the Northern Line from Euston).

I think Euston to Kings Cross is a fair example. There's a lot of walking involved, and particularly stairs, if you take the Tube. That's the case whether you go for the Northern/Victoria line or walk to/from Euston Square for the sub-surface lines.

Those with mobility issues, or who simply have a lot of luggage, may well find it easier to take a bus.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think Euston to Kings Cross is a fair example

Absolutely. I walk when it’s dry but when it’s raining or I have luggage I take the bus.

It’s more 50:50 in the King’s Cross to Euston direction because you have to cross Euston Road twice when you take the bus.

 

[infobleep]

I've been known to use the 68 / 168 between those two, as a rather pleasanter alternative to the Northern Line when not in a hurry. (Payment wasn't an issue as I had either a Travelcard, or more recently an ENCTS pass.)

That sounds great and I ahead used buses in central London before when I had a season ticket or i was travelling from a friend's house to a station.

But if it's a cross-london travel, I insist on only using the routes permitted by the ticket

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It will be the usual combination of historical quirk and no desire to change things. At least the tube transfer is included in the train fare, cross-city transfers (except for tickets between two GM stations) in Manchester are not.

There are (sometimes) direct TPE trains running hourly between Manchester Piccadilly / Manchester Oxford Road over to Manchester Victoria, or vice-versa, for anyone who doesn't wish to pay the £1.40 Metrolink fare. Not always so easy to do a straightforward cross London transfer without using the tube, and isn't the cost of doing do normally included in / added to the through ticket price?

 

[redreni]

There's a wider question here of why the "Maltese Cross" transfer is only valid by tube, when the bus is clearly the better option for Euston to Kings Cross. This may also be so for other transfers, particularly for the elderly, infirm, those with small children or heavy luggage or people that just don't like the tube particularly at busy times.

I don't get why TfL don't allow this. It would help with transfers that have to take place when the tube isn't running. It would help people make their connections when there's disruption on the tube. It would have helped a lot when they were working on the escalators at Euston - as it was they tried to suppress demand by having the TfL journey planner tell people going to Euston to get off at Warren St or Euston Square and walk, but they seemed to just accept that people making through National Rail journeys would make their tube transfers as usual. They should have been actively encouraging them to use the bus instead (particularly if transferring between Kings Cross or St Pancras and Euston).

Years ago there was serious consideration of something like this (unfortunately I think the context was the 2005 terror attacks which made some wary of Tube travel) - my hazy recollection being the plan was for an inter-termini bus transfer 'add on' to rail tickets. Evidently it never reached the implementation stage.

Didn't one of the bombs go off on a bus? Though, of course, I accept these things don't run along rational lines, and there are people who just don't like being underground for too long (or, ideally, at all). People who would take a mainline train and be able to deal with the tunnels, but can't deal with the Underground. Allowing cross-London transfers by bus would help them, too.

I could see there being concerns about stopping maltese cross tickets from turning into de-facto travelcards. IIRC LU barriers have the ability to write-back to tickets to prevent them being used more than once, but busses don't even have magstripe readers at all.

If TfL ever sorts out e-ticket and ITSO acceptance for cross-London transfers, that concern should be reduced dramatically. To make it easy, they could then say you can only use one bus for a cross-London transfer, so there's no question of anyone using it like a PlusBus ticket as a substitute for a Travelcard to get around central London.

A great many short trips within zone 1 made by non-Londoners on the tube would be better made on foot or by bus. But navigation is easier on the tube. I'm all for giving people the option for cross-London transfers, though!

 

[Hadders]

I guess the one of the issues is the interchange time.

Take something like Kings Cross to Victoria - minimum connection time is 36 minutes
Victoria Line 8 minutes running time, TfL Journey planner says 17 minutes
By Bus it's two buses, TfL Journey Planner says 43 minutes

You'd be looking at increasing the minimum interchange times if you allowed cross-London journeys to be made by bus.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't get why TfL don't allow this.

Financial reasons. The same as why there is a mixed-mode premium on Cross London travel on Oyster / Contactless, which no one is ever going to give up on.

While it may just be a different pot for TfL, the fact is that anyone currently using a bus for this transfer is paying for that journey.

 

[redreni]

I guess the one of the issues is the interchange time.

Take something like Kings Cross to Victoria - minimum connection time is 36 minutes
Victoria Line 8 minutes running time, TfL Journey planner says 17 minutes
By Bus it's two buses, TfL Journey Planner says 43 minutes

You'd be looking at increasing the minimum interchange times if you allowed cross-London journeys to be made by bus.

Many people wouldn't be able to walk that in 36 minutes either - would you propose telling them they're not allowed to walk, or else increasing the MCT in case they do decide to walk?

I just don't see that as an issue. Just say your ticket will be accepted if you want to make a cross-London transfer by bus, but it's 'at your own risk' in terms of timing of connections. TfL already excludes buses from its delay refund scheme, so it's hardly a stretch to say we're not going to be responsible for getting you between terminals by bus in any particular timescale, is it? I don't think anybody's proposing that National Rail journey planners should start telling people to make transfers by bus, are they?

Having said that, some NR stations in central London are quite close by bus but not by tube. On a journey from Hertfordshire to Surrey, Thameslink to City Thameslink, bus to Waterloo is a perfectly sensible route, for instance. There might be a case for defining fixed bus links between certain station pairs, such as those two, for the purpose of allowing cross-London transfers to be made by bus between them. But I'd have thought the fixed links that exist already should continue to be based on tube transfer times, and people should be told if they choose to get the bus and miss their train, that's on them.

 

[30907]

As the most useful transfer appears to be EUS-KGX/STP, how about an instruction to crews on the 205 to accept Maltese Cross tickets - I don't think if affects TfL's income significantly

Edit: for this specific journey (there may be a few more examples).

 

[redreni]

Financial reasons. The same as why there is a mixed-mode premium on Cross London travel on Oyster / Contactless, which no one is ever going to give up on.

While it may just be a different pot for TfL, the fact is that anyone currently using a bus for this transfer is paying for that journey.

Yeah, twice, since they've already bought a train ticket with a Maltese Cross which means TfL has already been paid to convey them between the terminals.

I doubt the revenue we're talking about is even noticeable, but if it is, I don't think "but we want to carry on double-charging people" is a very strong argument against doing this.

 

[Hadders]

Many people wouldn't be able to walk that in 36 minutes either - would you propose telling them they're not allowed to walk, or else increasing the MCT in case they do decide to walk?

I just don't see that as an issue. Just say your ticket will be accepted if you want to make a cross-London transfer by bus, but it's 'at your own risk' in terms of timing of connections. TfL already excludes buses from its delay refund scheme, so it's hardly a stretch to say we're not going to be responsible for getting you between terminals by bus in any particular timescale, is it? I don't think anybody's proposing that National Rail journey planners should start telling people to make transfers by bus, are they?

Having said that, some NR stations in central London are quite close by bus but not by tube. On a journey from Hertfordshire to Surrey, Thameslink to City Thameslink, bus to Waterloo is a perfectly sensible route, for instance. There might be a case for defining fixed bus links between certain station pairs, such as those two, for the purpose of allowing cross-London transfers to be made by bus between them. But I'd have thought the fixed links that exist already should continue to be based on tube transfer times, and people should be told if they choose to get the bus and miss their train, that's on them.

The minimum connection times assume travel is by underground services, they are already increased at times of the day when the underground doesn't operate, Kings Cross to Victoria is 46 minutes between midnight and 05:29 when you need to make your own way there.

 

[redreni]

The minimum connection times assume travel is by underground services, they are already increased at times of the day when the underground doesn't operate, Kings Cross to Victoria is 46 minutes between midnight and 05:29 when you need to make your own way there.

Exactly. I'm just trying to understand why you think accepting Maltese Cross tickets for cross-London transfers on buses would mean the existing MCT during London Underground operating hours would need to be calibrated to make the bus transfer possible within that time?

If you're in a hurry, take the tube - that's what the journey planner assumes you'll do.

The only time I would advocate basing the MCT on bus transfer times would be in the exact scenario you mention - transfers between midnight and 05:29. Or, if any new fixed links were to be introduced for station pairs that have no tube service but a good bus service between them (like City Thameslink and Waterloo), then the MCT for those new fixed links could be based on a realistic bus transfer time. But if people take the bus when there's a quicker option by tube and they miss their train as a result, that's a matter for them, surely? Same as if they choose to walk and don't allow enough time.

 

[Hadders]

Exactly. I'm just trying to understand why you think accepting Maltese Cross tickets for cross-London transfers on buses would mean the existing MCT during London Underground operating hours would need to be calibrated to make the bus transfer possible within that time?

If you're in a hurry, take the tube - that's what the journey planner assumes you'll do.

The only time I would advocate basing the MCT on bus transfer times would be in the exact scenario you mention - transfers between midnight and 05:29. Or, if any new fixed links were to be introduced for station pairs that have no tube service but a good bus service between them (like City Thameslink and Waterloo), then the MCT for those new fixed links could be based on a realistic bus transfer time. But if people take the bus when there's a quicker option by tube and they miss their train as a result, that's a matter for them, surely? Same as if they choose to walk and don't allow enough time.

So what happens to someone on an Advance ticket who uses the bus and misses their booked train connection?

Are they allowed to get a later train?

'Us on here' know how these sort of things work and what is feasible but the vast majority of the ublic wouldn't know this. If the ticket allows travel by bus then there will be an expectation that they will be sorted out in the event of a delay on the bus.

 

[redreni]

So what happens to someone on an Advance ticket who uses the bus and misses their booked train connection?

Are they allowed to get a later train?

'Us on here' know how these sort of things work and what is feasible but the vast majority of the ublic wouldn't know this. If the ticket allows travel by bus then there will be an expectation that they will be sorted out in the event of a delay on the bus.

No, they're not allowed to get a later train if it's one of the existing fixed links where the MCT is based on a tube transfer.

They may be if they were using the hypothetical fixed bus link I'd like to see created between City Thameslink and Waterloo, but that MCT would be based on the bus transfer time, so would be long enough to make it unlikely anybody would miss their connection (or, at least, no more likely than it already is for tube transfers)

I don't think it would be an issue, though, because you wouldn't publicise the fact travel is permitted by bus, and you would make sure journey planners continued to tell people to transfer by tube.

You would just put up some info on some hidden-away page on National Rail Enquires and/or the TfL site saying cross-London tickets are accepted on London buses between the appropriate terminals, but passengers must note that the journey time may be longer by bus than by tube and it's their responsibility to make sure they have enough time if they want to travel by bus. In practice the info would only be seen by

1. people like us, or
2. by people who ask (e.g. they may ask a ticket retailer if taking the bus is allowed and be referred by them to the relevant info).

The vast majority of people would simply continue doing whatever they're doing now.

 

[Egg Centric]

Do we actually know that Kings Cross - Euston is quicker walking the whole way? I remember some good natured gentle ribbing for taking the tube between the two on some railforums meetup where I was up against the wall time wise and took the Victoria line. In my head it made sense to save a minute or two but maybe I just deserved the ribbing!

95% of the time I walk the entirety of the distance and it definitely feels slower.

It would be at a slower pace than a fit person walking quickly but not at a ludicrously slow pace either - I'll call it "ambling northerner".

 

[infobleep]

I don't think it would be an issue, though, because you wouldn't publicise the fact travel is permitted by bus, and you would make sure journey planners continued to tell people to transfer by tube.

You would just put up some info on some hidden-away page on National Rail Enquires and/or the TfL site saying cross-London tickets are accepted on London buses between the appropriate terminals, but passengers must note that the journey time may be longer by bus than by tube and it's their responsibility to make sure they have enough time if they want to travel by bus. In practice the info would only be seen by

1. people like us, or
2. by people who ask (e.g. they may ask a ticket retailer if taking the bus is allowed and be referred by them to the relevant info).

The vast majority of people would simply continue doing whatever they're doing now.

Personally I'm not sure if this would work.

Taking a possible real world example, how does someone in a wheelchair currently get from London Waterloo to London Euston with a ticket that includes cross-London transfers?

I'll assume they are traveling at a time when no fast trains stop at Clapham Junction and their journey started at Woking.

 

[Egg Centric]

Personally I'm not sure if this would work.

Taking a possible real world example, how does someone in a wheelchair currently get from London Waterloo to London Euston with a ticket that includes cross-London transfers?

I'll assume they are traveling at a time when no fast trains stop at Clapham Junction and their journey started at Woking.

Is there not a system for getting them a (free at TOC expense) taxi? If there's not that's disgusting.

 

[infobleep]

Is there not a system for getting them a (free at TOC expense) taxi? If there's not that's disgusting.

There may well be. I don't know.

 

[plugwash]

Taking a possible real world example, how does someone in a wheelchair currently get from London Waterloo to London Euston with a ticket that includes cross-London transfers?

Looking at the "step free tube map" I think the could take the Jubilee to Westminster then the Circle to Euston Sqare.

But I suspect the real-world answer is they avoid central London compltely, even if that means using slower trains.

 

[infobleep]

Looking at the "step free tube map" I think the could take the Jubilee to Westminster then the Circle to Euston Sqare.

But I suspect the real-world answer is they avoid central London compltely, even if that means using slower trains.

From Woking that would require them to take a train to Surbtion and then change onto another train as in the morning peak, even the stopping trains skip Clapham Junction. That's why I chose Woking for my hypertheical situation.

They can of course avoid the high peak morning rush hour, as I like to call the period where trains don't stop at Clapham Junction.

 

[paul1609]

It will be the usual combination of historical quirk and no desire to change things. At least the tube transfer is included in the train fare, cross-city transfers (except for tickets between two GM stations) in Manchester are not.

I actually can’t think of many interchanges where the bus would be preferable to the tube though, unless you have an aversion to the tube for whatever reason.

Euston-Waterloo was mentioned but that’s a direct tube; King’s Cross-Waterloo is just as easy via the Victoria Line and Bakerloo Line due to the cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus (also an option to avoid the Northern Line from Euston).

Whilst id personally normally walk. London Bridge to Liverpool St is far easier by bus than by tube.

 

[redreni]

Personally I'm not sure if this would work.

Taking a possible real world example, how does someone in a wheelchair currently get from London Waterloo to London Euston with a ticket that includes cross-London transfers?

I'll assume they are traveling at a time when no fast trains stop at Clapham Junction and their journey started at Woking.

I don't know, but I really can't imagine acceptance or not of Maltese Cross tickets on TfL buses would make the slightest difference given that users of wheelchairs and mobility scooters are already carried free. Your hypothetical case seems like a textbook example of somebody who might well need to allow themselves more than the MCT for this kind of transfer, and that wouldn't change.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Whilst id personally normally walk. London Bridge to Liverpool St is far easier by bus than by tube.

Tube to Moorgate and then a very short walk.

 

[Richardr]

Do we actually know that Kings Cross - Euston is quicker walking the whole way?

I don't know the answer to your question, but one advantage of walking such a relatively short distance is knowing exactly how long it will take.