Bought a ticket 1 minute late - Penalty Fare Advice

[Hoffla]

Last week I was travelling from Biggleswade to Peterborough on a split save ticket. Biggleswade to St Neots then St Neots to Peterborough, I was travelling at around 11am.

A few minutes before the train I was loading up my Trainline app to buy my ticket, my phone froze and reset, in that time the train had arrived and I could either miss my train or board it and buy my ticket when my phone restarted.

I got on the train and within a minute of boarding I had bought my electronic ticket. The Train came at 11:00 and my email notification came at 11:02.

A few minutes after boarding and buying my ticket (albeit 1-2 mins late), a RPO approached asked for my ticket and pretty much immediately gave me a penalty notice.

Not sure if this is important but he issued me a penalty notice for the whole journey instead of just my first leg which I had a late ticket for, which was Biggleswade to St Neots.

I of course protested politely pointing out that my phone froze and I still bought a full ticket, just a few mins after the doors closed. He wasn’t haven’t any of it and keep deflecting to - such and such being an independent process, he has to do it and I can appeal. Blah blah blah.

I’ve never received one of these notices, in my mind I think that the train companies do not care about the customers so what is the point in appealing. I clearly bought my ticket a min or two late, I just have to believe in the companies good grace, which they don’t have.

I’m a frequent train traveller - spend about £500 a month on trains so this really annoys me that one small slip up results in such a big fine.

Also I find it strange that RPO’s get paid to do this but can’t use any judgement in the process. I had a full ticket, just bought 1-2 mins late.

Can anyone offer up some advice on -
1. Is it worth appealing this
2. I’ve recently moved to this area, are RPO’s frequently on this Sandy to Kings Cross line?
3. I’ve read people getting notices to prosecute - should I expect this?

Thanks

 

[island]

Why didn't you buy a ticket at the ticket office or machine at Biggleswade?

 

[WesternLancer]

Last week I was travelling from Biggleswade to Peterborough on a split save ticket. Biggleswade to St Neots then St Neots to Peterborough, I was travelling at around 11am.

A few minutes before the train I was loading up my Trainline app to buy my ticket, my phone froze and reset, in that time the train had arrived and I could either miss my train or board it and buy my ticket when my phone restarted.

I got on the train and within a minute of boarding I had bought my electronic ticket. The Train came at 11:00 and my email notification came at 11:02.

A few minutes after boarding and buying my ticket (albeit 1-2 mins late), a RPO approached asked for my ticket and pretty much immediately gave me a penalty notice.

Not sure if this is important but he issued me a penalty notice for the whole journey instead of just my first leg which I had a late ticket for, which was Biggleswade to St Neots.

I of course protested politely pointing out that my phone froze and I still bought a full ticket, just a few mins after the doors closed. He wasn’t haven’t any of it and keep deflecting to - such and such being an independent process, he has to do it and I can appeal. Blah blah blah.

I’ve never received one of these notices, in my mind I think that the train companies do not care about the customers so what is the point in appealing. I clearly bought my ticket a min or two late, I just have to believe in the companies good grace, which they don’t have.

I’m a frequent train traveller - spend about £500 a month on trains so this really annoys me that one small slip up results in such a big fine.

Also I find it strange that RPO’s get paid to do this but can’t use any judgement in the process. I had a full ticket, just bought 1-2 mins late.

Can anyone offer up some advice on -
1. Is it worth appealing this
2. I’ve recently moved to this area, are RPO’s frequently on this Sandy to Kings Cross line?
3. I’ve read people getting notices to prosecute - should I expect this?

Thanks

Ref questions
1) possibly. There are other benefits such as if you appeal it prevents prosecution later iirc. But don’t miss the prompt payment discount.

2) yes. If it’s Thameslink their services operate without guards. Driver only. So all enforcement is by RPO. RPOs are less likely to use discretion over things like this.

Stepping on board a train without previously buying a ticket before boarding is technically a criminal offence. Apart from being let off a penalty fare is the ‘least worst’ sanction you can get.

For context:
Govt policy for some time has been to increase penalty fare routes across the country. In part this is to support the policy of getting rid of guards on trains and having a punitive regime for people who don’t have correct tickets.

The ticket scanners are set to alert the inspector if on line tickets bought after train you are on had departed. Staff may well have been told by management not to override those alerts and not issue a PF so easier to issue you one and tell you to appeal than to let you off and then get told off by their manager.

3) if you don’t pay the penalty (depending on any appeal outcome) it will escalate and cost you more / be more hassle to resolve.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Legally speaking you are required to possess a valid ticket before you board the train. There are some exceptions to this but they're not going to be relevant here as Biggleswade station has a ticket machine which you can use to buy a ticket.

1. Is it worth appealing this

There's nothing stopping you from appealing but I wouldn't expect it to succeed. There might be some very technical reasons why the Penalty Fare notice is incorrect but this woould require taking it to a three stage appeal and using a very legalisatic form of argument. I will let other forum members advise.

2. I’ve recently moved to this area, are RPO’s frequently on this Sandy to Kings Cross line?

They make random checks, so you never know exactly when they might turn up.

3. I’ve read people getting notices to prosecute - should I expect this?

If you've been given a Penalty Fare then once paid that is the end of the matter in respect of this case.

 

[Haywain]

Not sure if this is important but he issued me a penalty notice for the whole journey instead of just my first leg which I had a late ticket for, which was Biggleswade to St Neots.

Did you already have a ticket from St Neots to Peterborough?

 

[Snow1964]

Not sure if this is important but he issued me a penalty notice for the whole journey instead of just my first leg which I had a late ticket for, which was Biggleswade to St Neots.

Did you already hold the other ticket (before boarding), or were you trying to buy it in one transaction (which completed after you were already on train).

The other technical point that might be relevant, is was the train you were caught on due to call at St Neots station (or run through non stop)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Did this occur upon departure from Biggleswade or St Neots?

Did you already hold the ticket from St Neots to Peterborough?

If not, did you purchase both tickets through the app? In which order did you purchase the tickets (i.e. did you purchase the St Neots to Peterborough ticket first)? Were either ticket bought after the Penalty Fare was issued? Or were both tickets purchased in one transaction through the app?

Can we see the REDACTED penalty fare notice please?

My initial thought is that the Penalty Fare is not valid if you held a valid ticket. A Penalty Fare can only be issued where no valid ticket is held. In the circumstances as you describe- buying a valid ticket after departure- there are no grounds to issue a Penalty Fare.

GTR regularly seem to say that a ticket bought onboard is “not valid” but this isn’t true. A ticket bought on board is valid and buying it on board doesn’t reduce its validity.

HOWEVER your failure to buy before boarding is a separate criminal offence and would normally be reported for prosecution. In reality, receiving a Penalty Fare is usually cheaper that a negotiated settlement after being reported for prosecution.

It is worth noting that if you appeal a Penalty Fare, and the appeal panel make a decision, then the TOC can no longer prosecute you.

 

[Hoffla]

Why didn't you buy a ticket at the ticket office or machine at Biggleswade?

Hi island - they don’t have a ticket office but they do have a ticket machine. I don’t typically use a machine when my phone and e-tickets (up until this point) have worked fine with no issue.

I could have gone to the ticket machine when my phone shutdown but I would have missed my train anyway and therefore just waited for my phone to boot back up.

 

[Watershed]

OP, I would suggest there are several possible grounds for appeal:

1) The Penalty Fare was fundamentally issued without a valid reason, as you showed ticket when asked. If you had bought a ticket after boarding from the conductor, no-one would question its validity. A ticket bought through an app is no different; it is valid.

You committed an offence under Railway Byelaw 18 by boarding without a valid ticket, but that is a separate matter which has to be pursued through the Magistrates' Court if the train company wants to pursue it. Committing a Byelaw 18 offence does not give grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare.

2) The Penalty Fare was issued for the incorrect destination. Even if your first ticket were to be deemed invalid (which it isn't), at a minimum your second ticket from St Neots was entirely valid, as you are perfectly permitted to extend your journey once on the train by buying an additional ticket.

Therefore the PF should have been issued to St Neots at most - and you should have been given the option of having it issued to the next stop as of the time of inspection (presumably long before St Neots). Accordingly this means the value of the PF is also incorrect (too high).

3) The PF Regulations require warning signage with specific wording at every entrance to the station. These requirements are often not met, meaning the prerequisites in the Regulations for issuing PFs are not met, hence PFs cannot validly be issued. It is worthwhile checking whether this is the case at Biggleswade. You can see an example of a previous signage-based appeal here.

There is no disadvantage to appealing, other than the time it takes to write and send the appeal. At worst, your appeal gets rejected and you get extra time to pay whilst the appeal is being decided. At best, it gets cancelled.

It's also worth noting that there are three levels of appeal, each of which should be looked at by a different person. Our experience is that first and second stage appeals are often rejected almost out of hand, and that it's only at the third stage of appeal that appeals are properly looked at. Therefore it's worth persisting even if you don't succeed on the first or second instance. During the time your PF is on appeal (waiting for a decision), the "clock" is stopped on the 21 day period where the PF is reduced by £50. So you don't lose out on the opportunity to pay less, so long as you appeal quickly.

We'd be happy to proof-read any appeal you want to draft.

 

[Hoffla]

Did you already have a ticket from St Neots to Peterborough?

It was a split save so I bought the whole journey at the same time in the same payment but the tickets were split.

 

[Haywain]

they don’t have a ticket office

Biggleswade station does have a ticket office, although it is not open after 14.15 on any day.

 

[BAFRA77]

Quick question.

If a user only has payment methods on their phone (if the user had no cash or mislaid their physical wallet) - which was not functioning due to it undergoing the force reboot process when they were in a location with TVM / Office access - but then rebooted once the user was on the train - would this then bring into play the “buy at first available opportunity with desired payment method”?

Or is this not in play?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quick question.

If a user only has payment methods on their phone (if the user had no cash or mislaid their physical wallet) - which was not functioning due to it undergoing the force reboot process when they were in a location with TVM / Office access - but then rebooted once the user was on the train - would this then bring into play the “buy at first available opportunity with desired payment method”?

Or is this not in play?

No, because there will have been opportunities to purchase at the station which the passenger will have walked past to reach the train - a TVM and/or a booking office.

This one would only be arguable at a station with no ticket purchase facilities at all (where if you didn't use your phone you'd buy from the guard), and there are vanishingly few of those these days with Northern (the main TOC that had them) having installed TVMs at almost all theirs.

That the passenger was not carrying a method of payment isn't the railway's problem - you can't travel for free if you've gone out with nothing bar your house keys. Though in fact they probably did, because most people who would purchase from a mobile phone app will have Apple/Google Pay set up, and you can pay contactless using that, indeed while I do tend to carry my wallet just in case still (many younger people don't, though) it is the way I pay for most things these days.

 

[BAFRA77]

Apologies - was being a bit vague.

If you were at a station and in a queue for either a TVM or Booking Office - ready to complete the transaction using your only method of payment being Apple Pay / Google Wallet - only for the phone to then enter the reboot phase.

The user would have a payment method on them - that being the electronic version of bank cards on a method that temporarily is non-functional (similar to if the Contactless function on a TVM was not working) - but no cash.

 

[island]

If a passenger's phone is malfunctioning such that the passenger cannot use their phone to make a contactless payment, the passenger needs to sort their phone out, use a different form of payment, or not travel. No different to if they found out their physical card had snapped, or the £20 note they wanted to use was counterfeit. Choosing to go out with only Apple Pay etc. available is running a risk.

 

[Hadders]

Apologies - was being a bit vague.

If you were at a station and in a queue for either a TVM or Booking Office - ready to complete the transaction using your only method of payment being Apple Pay / Google Wallet - only for the phone to then enter the reboot phase.

The user would have a payment method on them - that being the electronic version of bank cards on a method that temporarily is non-functional (similar to if the Contactless function on a TVM was not working) - but no cash.

The customers malfunctioning payment method wouldn't be a valid reason to join the train without a ticket.

No different to a customers physical payment card beig declined but 'there being plenty of cash on the account'.