Ideas to make the Bromley North line more useful

[MarkyT]

Seems unlikely without some huge infrastructure investment at Grove Park, because any through trains to Bromley North would currently have to cross the fast tracks there, which would cause massive pathing conflicts. And as @JonathanH says, there are other destinations that will serve much greater numbers of passengers. Off the top of my head, if an additional 4tph became available at London Bridge, I'd expect the lines to Dartford would be the most likely beneficiaries.

mods note - split from here:

Is it a practical solution to build a second line that operates like Victoria Line? What would be the issues? How might it help in London?

I was just thinking of this, even maybe longer although maybe not overly long. Perhaps the stations will be even more spaced out in Central London than the current Victoria Line to make it a faster line. The main issue I see with this idea is that the core stations would have to become...

www.railforums.co.uk

Here's an idea for a direct Bromley N service. It would run fast to London Bridge from Grove Park.

A separate 'right turn lane' track at Grove Park station is provided. A new platform face is cut into the south end of platform #3 to accommodate the extra track so a Bromley-bound train loading and awaiting a path across the London-bound express track can stand clear of the express track from London.

 

[cle]

Here's an idea for a direct Bromley N service. It would run fast to London Bridge from Grove Park.

A separate 'right turn lane' track at Grove Park station is provided. A new platform face is cut into the south end of platform #3 to accommodate the extra track so a Bromley-bound train loading and awaiting a path across the London-bound express track can stand clear of the express track from London.

Not sure if they’ll build for it - but re paths, this would clear the fast Hayes 2tph pair off the mainlines fairly quickly.

Otherwise it gets trickier after Orpington re the two track section.

Also I like the idea of these paths benefitting SE Londoners. Would it fill a train though? Only three stops

 

[MarkyT]

Not sure if they’ll build for it - but re paths, this would clear the fast Hayes 2tph pair off the mainlines fairly quickly.

Otherwise it gets trickier after Orpington re the two track section.

Also I like the idea of these paths benefitting SE Londoners. Would it fill a train though? Only three stops

Why can't you have local expresses? Slotting in between longer distance services. Is it any different to Heathrow Express? Get your point about potential custom. A Lewisham stop would be a connectivity gamechanger, but it'd be crazy to weave there and back to the existing station. Fast line platforms linked by a walkway/travellator?

 

[SynthD]

Here's an idea for a direct Bromley N service. It would run fast to London Bridge from Grove Park.

A separate 'right turn lane' track at Grove Park station is provided. A new platform face is cut into the south end of platform #3 to accommodate the extra track so a Bromley-bound train loading and awaiting a path across the London-bound express track can stand clear of the express track from London.

Does that make platform 3 too short to take the trains it has now? If it’s not suitable (timetabling-wise) for trains approaching P3 to cross over to P1, is this any improvement in making that same move a few hundred metres further south?

Why can't you have local expresses? Slotting in between longer distance services.

The fast line slot is too valuable to spend on a short train from this length-limited branch.

 

[30907]

Here's an idea for a direct Bromley N service. It would run fast to London Bridge from Grove Park.

A separate 'right turn lane' track at Grove Park station is provided. A new platform face is cut into the south end of platform #3 to accommodate the extra track so a Bromley-bound train loading and awaiting a path across the London-bound express track can stand clear of the express track from London.

Conventional wisdom is that 4-car peak-hour trains on the SE are to be avoided.

I'm all for challenging conventional wisdom, but I recommend a site visit

 

[cle]

Does that make platform 3 too short to take the trains it has now? If it’s not suitable (timetabling-wise) for trains approaching P3 to cross over to P1, is this any improvement in making that same move a few hundred metres further south?

The fast line slot is too valuable to spend on a short train from this length-limited branch.

But where does it go? Orpington and Sevenoaks are the busiest stations, and well catered for.

Actual Kent Kent (Ashford and beyond) is far better covered now by the Javelins. Would be fresh air along that lovely 4 track straight-away!

Bromley North won’t fill a 8+ car train (in peaks these paths shouldn’t be shorter!) - nor can the platforms handle it.

But the answer to the fasts isn’t obvious. Tunbridge Wells semi maybe?

Or can it get onto the lines to Swanley and absorb a Victoria Medway service? And then add a different 2tph out of Victoria to intensify the inner service?

 

[MarkyT]

Does that make platform 3 too short to take the trains it has now? If it’s not suitable (timetabling-wise) for trains approaching P3 to cross over to P1, is this any improvement in making that same move a few hundred metres further south?

Platform #3 is rarely used for passenger services. Most likely only in case of engineering work closing the slows. A longer new platform shifted west and entirely replacing current #3 might be possible, with a lot more work on buildings and footbridges. It might also include a south end connection back to the down fast to form a platform loop so some longer trains could continue to call there. The idea of pulling off the down fast before crossing the up fast in a separate movement after the passenger call is to allow down fast trains following the Bromley N train to pass it if a gap across the up fast isn't immediately available. Remember that's a realtime gap in longer distance trains coming from the far reaches of Kent so passing times can realistically vary by a few minutes at times.

The fast line slot is too valuable to spend on a short train from this length-limited branch.

That would be my concern about the whole idea, and whether a frequent 4 car could be filled, but there are probably some notional paths that can't be exploited at the London end due to constraints further out. A short train in those otherwise unused paths might be better than no train at all. Platform capacity at Charing Cross is likely to be a concern.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That would be my concern about the whole idea, and whether a frequent 4 car could be filled, but there are probably some notional paths that can't be exploited at the London end due to constraints further out. A short train in those otherwise unused paths might be better than no train at all. Platform capacity at Charing Cross is likely to be a concern.

The other problem you'd have with a short train is that going into London, it's likely to fill up at London Bridge with passengers from Southern/Thameslink/Cannon Street trains who are trying to get to Charing Cross. So you could find that, East of London Bridge it's impossible to fill even a 4-car train, but West of London Bridge 4 cars is too short.

I think the idea for Grove Park remodelling is neat, but there's just not enough Bromley North traffic to make it worth it. And there are plenty of other destinations that could easily an extra couple of 8-car trains per hour.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The other problem you'd have with a short train is that going into London, it's likely to fill up at London Bridge with passengers from Southern/Thameslink/Cannon Street trains who are trying to get to Charing Cross. So you could find that, East of London Bridge it's impossible to fill even a 4-car train, but West of London Bridge 4 cars is too short.

I think the idea for Grove Park remodelling is neat, but there's just not enough Bromley North traffic to make it worth it. And there are plenty of other destinations that could easily an extra couple of 8-car trains per hour.

More chance of the Bromley North branch being turned into a tram route from Grove Park, through Bromley North and down to Bromley South. Advantage would be more frequent and connects to two main lines.

A local solution rather than a get into London solution.

 

[MPW]

More chance of the Bromley North branch being turned into a tram route from Grove Park, through Bromley North and down to Bromley South. Advantage would be more frequent and connects to two main lines.

A local solution rather than a get into London solution.

This makes the most sense to me

 

[DynamicSpirit]

More chance of the Bromley North branch being turned into a tram route from Grove Park, through Bromley North and down to Bromley South. Advantage would be more frequent and connects to two main lines.

A local solution rather than a get into London solution.

That would be a remarkably short tram route. It would certainly be more useful than the current train service, but even so, I can't see it getting a huge amount of custom. Connecting to two main lines is only really useful if you can sustain high enough frequencies to make it worth while people changing twice (once from one train line to the tram and then again to the other train line), and that seems unlikely when the Northern end is a relatively unimportant station that (by London standards) sees a fairly meagre 4tph into London. Also you'd need a microfleet of two, at a pinch three trams to service the line, which is probably not economic in terms of costs of having maintenance facilities for such a small fleet. Probably more useful (but harder to build) would be if you could somehow link it into the Croydon trams, as an extension to the Beckenham Junction route - and provide through trams from Grove Park to Croydon.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That would be a remarkably short tram route. It would certainly be more useful than the current train service, but even so, I can't see it getting a huge amount of custom. Connecting to two main lines is only really useful if you can sustain high enough frequencies to make it worth while people changing twice (once from one train line to the tram and then again to the other train line), and that seems unlikely when the Northern end is a relatively unimportant station that (by London standards) sees a fairly meagre 4tph into London. Also you'd need a microfleet of two, at a pinch three trams to service the line, which is probably not economic in terms of costs of having maintenance facilities for such a small fleet. Probably more useful (but harder to build) would be if you could somehow link it into the Croydon trams, as an extension to the Beckenham Junction route - and provide through trams from Grove Park to Croydon.

My bold. I was thinking more of people wanting to travel from somewhere on the tram route to either Grove Park for Charing Cross etc or to Bromley South for Victoria, not as a link for those two lines.

I agree getting further linking Bromley South (ish) to Beckenham Junction would be nice as, living in Croydon I often wish the Croydon tram got that bit further to Bromley.

 

[350401]

Bromley North is my local station, and the main annoyance is that the Bromley North trains do not always connect up well with the trains to/from Grove Park. The off peak 2tph branch line service connects well with the Charing Cross trains going into London, but the 3tph peak time service is basically useless - with large waits at Grove Park for the connecting train. I'd rather they maintained the 2tph service all day that does connect well. Coming from London, in theory the 2tph from Charing Cross are meant to connect with the branch line service - but often does not - when this timetabled connecting train from London is late, the shuttle is rarely held, meaning a 25 minute at Bromley North, or more likely, getting the bus.

In terms of improvements, the first step I'd suggest is to revert to all day 2tph service that connects with the Charing Cross trains AND commit to always holding the Bromley bound branch line train when the connecting train from London is late. Then, if money allows, move to a 4tph every 15 minute clock face timetable - at that turn up and go frequency, the connections at Grove Park become less important.

In terms of funding, there is a proposed large scale development around Bromley North station, with a couple of high rise blocks being proposed including a couple of hundred flats, new offices and new coffee shops/bars. I'd suggest using some of the CIL funding to provide a few years of funding for 4 tph on the line - once people get used to the improved turn up and go frequency, patronage will improve and hopefully become more self sustaining.

 

[contrex]

But where does it go? Orpington and Sevenoaks are the busiest stations, and well catered for.

Actual Kent Kent (Ashford and beyond)...

God that makes me feel old! Between around 1900 and the early 1960s my mother's SE London family had made it from the Old Kent Road to the likes of West Norwood, Thornton Heath, etc, an outlier was a snooty auntie in 'Orpington, Kent' who banged on about reading things in the Kent Messenger and belonging to the Bromley Townswomen's Guild. April 1st 1965, oh dear!

 

[30907]

Bromley North is my local station,

...and used to be one of my options when there were still through trains.

and the main annoyance is that the Bromley North trains do not always connect up well with the trains to/from Grove Park. The off peak 2tph branch line service connects well with the Charing Cross trains going into London, but the 3tph peak time service is basically useless - with large waits at Grove Park for the connecting train.

The problem is that there is more than one connecting train. The actual peak frequency is now 2 per 45min which looks to connect well with a mix of CHX and CST trains.

In terms of improvements, the first step I'd suggest is to revert to all day 2tph service that connects with the Charing Cross trains AND commit to always holding the Bromley bound branch line train when the connecting train from London is late.

With a 5min turnround at BMN you can't have both of those - but you could delay it up to 3min (or alter the London-bound service, at least in the afternoon - which was done at one time)

Then, if money allows, move to a 4tph every 15 minute clock face timetable - at that turn up and go frequency, the connections at Grove Park become less important.

Ideally, yes, but you're pretty much doubling the operating cost of the branch..

God that makes me feel old! Between around 1900 and the early 1960s my mother's SE London family had made it from the Old Kent Road to the likes of West Norwood, Thornton Heath, etc, an outlier was a snooty auntie in 'Orpington, Kent' who banged on about reading things in the Kent Messenger and belonging to the Bromley Townswomen's Guild. April 1st 1965, oh dear!

Amen to that from a Kentishman, born to South London parents! We took the (then) Bromley and Kentish Times every week of course

 

[contrex]

Amen to that from a Kentishman, born to South London parents! We took the (then) Bromley and Kentish Times every week of course

Some relatives who made it out of the pre-1965 LCC area gave themselves airs that they lived in 'Kent' or 'Surrey', even if it was Beckenham or Carshalton. One lived in Penge but did not claim Kent residence, and one remained in Lambeth, at Crown Point, a few yards from the Croydon boundary. I was intrigued to hear a recording of HG Wells, brought up in Bromley, who sounded a bit like the way he wrote the speech of his 'Kipps' character. A lot of those edge-of-London accents have died out now I daresay.

 

[biggerisbetter]

More chance of the Bromley North branch being turned into a tram route from Grove Park, through Bromley North and down to Bromley South. Advantage would be more frequent and connects to two main lines.

A local solution rather than a get into London solution.

I would extend the tram from Beckenham Junction through the centre of Bromley and then to take over the Bromley North branch. Improved frequencies, better access to the centre and would provide a direct link between Bromley and Croydon. Unlikely to be worth the money though I accept.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I would extend the tram from Beckenham Junction through the centre of Bromley and then to take over the Bromley North branch. Improved frequencies, better access to the centre and would provide a direct link between Bromley and Croydon. Unlikely to be worth the money though I accept.

To me it would seem the Beckenham Junction to Bromley extension of Tramlink will be the big hurdle. Onwards to Grove Park would then be very tempting.

 

[Basil Jet]

A surface tram line from Bromley South to Bromley North, Grove Park, Mottingham, Eltham Palace, Eltham station, Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Woolwich Arsenal station and Woolwich Elizabeth might be possible without any demolition.

 

[renegademaster]

When the networkers get withdrawn, buy some kind of automated airport people mover and increase the frequency but keep the same route. Another unrealistic idea of mine would be to trial automation hardware by bolting it onto whatever networkers haven't fallen apart yet.

 

[MarkyT]

Here's a controversial idea. Remove all railway assets and convert the alignment into a busway, linking it to the road network at Grove Park and Bromley North. Extend the new Superloop SL4, which should commence when the Silvertown tunnel opens, to Bromley. It's possible some other routes might benefit from an express leg here too. I'd avoid guidance tech if possible, rebuilding bridges for better lateral and vertical clearance as necessary.

 

[brad465]

Bromley North is my local station, and the main annoyance is that the Bromley North trains do not always connect up well with the trains to/from Grove Park. The off peak 2tph branch line service connects well with the Charing Cross trains going into London, but the 3tph peak time service is basically useless - with large waits at Grove Park for the connecting train. I'd rather they maintained the 2tph service all day that does connect well. Coming from London, in theory the 2tph from Charing Cross are meant to connect with the branch line service - but often does not - when this timetabled connecting train from London is late, the shuttle is rarely held, meaning a 25 minute at Bromley North, or more likely, getting the bus.

In terms of improvements, the first step I'd suggest is to revert to all day 2tph service that connects with the Charing Cross trains AND commit to always holding the Bromley bound branch line train when the connecting train from London is late. Then, if money allows, move to a 4tph every 15 minute clock face timetable - at that turn up and go frequency, the connections at Grove Park become less important.

In terms of funding, there is a proposed large scale development around Bromley North station, with a couple of high rise blocks being proposed including a couple of hundred flats, new offices and new coffee shops/bars. I'd suggest using some of the CIL funding to provide a few years of funding for 4 tph on the line - once people get used to the improved turn up and go frequency, patronage will improve and hopefully become more self sustaining.

Before covid the peak did see 4tph in the peak, but was an intensive job that involved 2 drivers in each cab of a 466 to make the 2 minute turnaround feasible (each driver only driving in the forward direction for their respective cab). I don't know if SE would want 4tph to return given the nature of making it work, unless they had the capacity to bring a second unit onto the branch, which would allow a more relaxed turnback, particularly at the Bromley North end (5 minute turnback at Grove Park, 15 minutes at Bromley North, if one unit departs at the latter the moment the other arrives).

 

[43066]

The Past and Future of the Bromley North Branch - London Reconnections

The leading source for independent news and analysis about transport in London and beyond. Award-winning coverage of transport infrastructure and politics alongside stories about the history of the Capital's transport networks.

www.londonreconnections.com

Just in case anyone hasn’t seen it, a very interesting article on the branch’s history and future. Written in 2013, but many of the issues are the same today of course.

 

[brad465]

Something I was thinking recently, is there capacity for Southeastern to trial a Saturday service into Charing X, running fast from Grove Park-London Bridge? Peak service paths don't exist, but on Saturdays maybe such a service could be pathed and entice more day trippers into the London Bridge-Charing X corridor from Bromley.

 

[cle]

The Tunbridge Wells extra semis don’t run now, nor does much between Tonbridge and Ashford.

Hayes Bakerloo would clear two additional fast paths. These might be good candidates as they are ‘used’ to peeling off the mainline quickly - ie they might have something on their tail.

In other words, there is/will plenty of capacity on this route, vs previously. Enough capacity that I wonder if a Hither Green call could also slot in - make the service more useful. Possibly in place of a Sidcup line call.

I do agree Bromley North might not fill the train.

And Tramlink to Beckenham (where hopefully the Bakerloo also gets - ta da - now a big hub) - does make sense too. A connection via Eltham through to Woolwich is interesting too - radial re bus/car relief, but then also Elizabeth line feed, and a whole other connectivity to the Tram, and linking Croydon and Bromley with more lines.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The Tunbridge Wells extra semis don’t run now, nor does much between Tonbridge and Ashford.

Hayes Bakerloo would clear two additional fast paths. These might be good candidates as they are ‘used’ to peeling off the mainline quickly - ie they might have something on their tail.

In other words, there is/will plenty of capacity on this route, vs previously. Enough capacity that I wonder if a Hither Green call could also slot in - make the service more useful. Possibly in place of a Sidcup line call.

I do agree Bromley North might not fill the train.

And Tramlink to Beckenham (where hopefully the Bakerloo also gets - ta da - now a big hub) - does make sense too. A connection via Eltham through to Woolwich is interesting too - radial re bus/car relief, but then also Elizabeth line feed, and a whole other connectivity to the Tram, and linking Croydon and Bromley with more lines.

The Tunbridge Wells extra's do run though. They run for most of the day Monday to Friday with a gap in the middle of the day and some run on Saturday too.

 

[30907]

Something I was thinking recently, is there capacity for Southeastern to trial a Saturday service into Charing X, running fast from Grove Park-London Bridge? Peak service paths don't exist, but on Saturdays maybe such a service could be pathed and entice more day trippers into the London Bridge-Charing X corridor from Bromley.

No doubt, but would providing a throug service fill even a 4-car set? Although the housing density around Bromley North has increased compared with 50 years ago, you are still talking two stations (unusually close together at that).

 

[brad465]

No doubt, but would providing a through service fill even a 4-car set? Although the housing density around Bromley North has increased compared with 50 years ago, you are still talking two stations (unusually close together at that).

Bromley South station reported almost 1.5 million passengers going to London Victoria in the latest annual flow data. While this is every day of the week over a year, there is potential for a through service to Charing X on at least Saturdays drawing in some of these passengers, also freeing up space on fast VIC-BMS services for passengers to/from further afield.

A through service could take 16 minutes to London Bridge (5 to Grove Park, 11 to LBG), then another 8 minutes to Charing X, so while slightly longer than the 16-19 minutes between BMS-VIC, this will be faster overall for any passengers on the latter who either don't need the Underground or get away with a shorter journey on it.

 

[465fan]

Funding the Bakerloo line extension to take over the whole of the Hayes line, as well as the corner round to Beckenham Junction (closing of Ladywell Junction, plain-lining Courthill for all traffic from Lewisham to go towards Hither Green), will probably do the trick. Naturally, the issue is then you've got potentially a fair amount of people for a more limited service (can't support more than 8 coaches every 30 minutes, surely?), but it would be entirely possible to run everything fast from Grove Park to London Bridge and onto the Charing Cross side.

If this is too difficult, then quite frankly its bonkers NOT to extend Tramlink through Shortlands, up to the Glades (if they still call it that), Bromley North and onto Grove Park is about right.

 

[renegademaster]

through Shortlands, up to the Glades (if they still call it that), Bromley North and onto Grove Park is about right.

How would do that without getting into Bromley being painfully slow. It's far and congested going via road, and i don't think theirs space in the embankment to squeeze a single tram line into the route into Bromley South. The you have the problem of crossing the tracks. It's not a quiet semi abandoned line like the Winkle was.