Bye law 18(1) & 18(2)

[Fritz300]

I have been charged for not showing a valid ticket on arriving at my destination station.

In the morning I arrived at my station of origin and realised I had left my purchased weekly ticket at home (I have been a regular weekly ticket buyer for over 10 years at a cost of £10000’s). On duty at the time was a number of Ticket Officers. I spoke to one of these officers and requested some advice on actions I should take, I showed him receipts and bank statements of my weekly ticket purchase. He was satisfied with my explanation and allowed me access and to board the train. On arrival at my destination I actively went to another Ticket Officer and explained what happened going through the whole process of showing receipts and explaining I had been given access. This officer took my details.

I received no communication from Chiltern Railways for 52 days before getting a letter regarding action being taken unless I could provide a valid ticket for the day. By the point I no longer had the ticket but still had receipts and bank statements. They have said this is unacceptable and are now taking me to court.

I have and can continue to prove that I bought a valid ticket through receipts and statement.
I was granted access to travel by an authorised person at my station of origin.

Does anyone have any further advice or opinions on what a court outcome will be?

 

[AlterEgo]

Could you please upload all correspondence with your name and address removed? We can then see what stage things are at and provide detailed advice.

 

[jfollows]

Would Chiltern be able to prove their case "beyond reasonable doubt", which is the yardstick for a criminal prosecution?
Your history and your evidence would seem to me to cast reasonable doubt.
However I think it would be better if you could avoid going to court at all!
When "they have said this is unacceptable" was this in writing?
As you say, you were given authority to travel at the start of your journey, but it becomes difficult to prove later on.

It's only an initial feeling from me, but I think you should put your evidence of purchase together and write to Chiltern explaining what this all means and that you would use this as part of your defence if they insist on taking you to court.

 

[Fritz300]

Would Chiltern be able to prove their case "beyond reasonable doubt", which is the yardstick for a criminal prosecution?
Your history and your evidence would seem to me to cast reasonable doubt.
However I think it would be better if you could avoid going to court at all!
When "they have said this is unacceptable" was this in writing?
As you say, you were given authority to travel at the start of your journey, but it becomes difficult to prove later on.

It's only an initial feeling from me, but I think you should put your evidence of purchase together and write to Chiltern explaining what this all means and that you would use this as part of your defence if they insist on taking you to court.

Unfortunately, it looks as if avoiding court is no longer an option as I have now received a SJPN to which I am going to plead ’not guilty’ to.

Do Chiltern need to prove the case that I was not given access by an authorised person or will it be my duty to prove otherwise? I have requested CCTV footage via a data protection SAR request but this incident took place back in August 2024 and I’m still waiting to see if that footage even exists still.

I have had a number of emails from there prosecutions team before this was advanced in which I produced said evidence to them but they have insisted that only producing the valid ticket for the day was acceptable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2025 ==

Could you please upload all correspondence with your name and address removed? We can then see what stage things are at and provide detailed advice.

All of the correspondence is ‘Strictly Confidential’ and I don’t want to be sharing such information on forum especially as the case is more then likely going to court.

 

[jfollows]

Unfortunately, it looks as if avoiding court is no longer an option as I have now received a SJPN to which I am going to plead ’not guilty’ to.

Do Chiltern need to prove the case that I was not given access by an authorised person or will it be my duty to prove otherwise? I have requested CCTV footage via a data protection SAR request but this incident took place back in August 2024 and I’m still waiting to see if that footage even exists still.

I have had a number of emails from there prosecutions team before this was advanced in which I produced said evidence to them but they have insisted that only producing the valid ticket for the day was acceptable.

Unfortunately I think you need to prove that you were allowed access, which of course you'll be unlikely to be able to do.

I think you need to major on the ticket angle, that you have evidence supporting your claim of having bought a valid ticket for the time, given that you can't provide the actual ticket, and it'll be up to the magistrates to decide whether or not they're convinced.

 

[AlterEgo]

All of the correspondence is ‘Strictly Confidential’ and I don’t want to be sharing such information on forum especially as the case is more then likely going to court.

If you don't share it we can't help you with the accuracy we do with everyone else. It's very unusual for Chiltern to just say "we will see you in court" and it end up there - normally they are amenable to settling out of court. But to settle, or mount a defence, we need to know the facts, which will include seeing letters or emails you've received or sent. That's how this part of the forum works - it's entirely normal for people to show their correspondence so the experts can read it and suggest what to do next.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2025 ==

Unfortunately, it looks as if avoiding court is no longer an option as I have now received a SJPN to which I am going to plead ’not guilty’ to.

I wouldn't advise that you accept you will be going to court at this stage, you may still have a chance to avoid court altogether.

Do Chiltern need to prove the case that I was not given access by an authorised person or will it be my duty to prove otherwise?

It will be your duty to prove you had permission; you are the one advancing the defence. You will almost certainly be convicted of the offence based on the evidence.

I have requested CCTV footage via a data protection SAR request but this incident took place back in August 2024 and I’m still waiting to see if that footage even exists still.

This footage will not exist any more, we can be almost certain, I'm afraid. They often get wiped after a few weeks.

I have had a number of emails from there prosecutions team before this was advanced in which I produced said evidence to them but they have insisted that only producing the valid ticket for the day was acceptable.

So have you tried to settle this out of court by offering to pay the fare due plus any administration fees?

 

[John R]

The odd thing about this case is that there is a standard process when someone travels having forgotten their season ticket. That is to sell them a new ticket, and then you claim back the cost of the new ticket providing proof of the Railcard. It's even set out in the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

If you possess a valid Season Ticket and/or photocard but were unable to present it when requested because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned may at their discretion refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 9, less an administration charge not exceeding £10.

In order to claim such a refund, you will need to provide the retailer from whom you bought your Season Ticket with your Season Ticket (and photocard if applicable), together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices.

So I'm baffled as to why you weren't advised of that, and asked to buy a new ticket before boarding your train.

 

[Fritz300]

If you don't share it we can't help you with the accuracy we do with everyone else. It's very unusual for Chiltern to just say "we will see you in court" and it end up there - normally they are amenable to settling out of court. But to settle, or mount a defence, we need to know the facts, which will include seeing letters or emails you've received or sent. That's how this part of the forum works - it's entirely normal for people to show their correspondence so the experts can read it and suggest what to do next.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2025 ==


I wouldn't advise that you accept you will be going to court at this stage, you may still have a chance to avoid court altogether.


It will be your duty to prove you had permission; you are the one advancing the defence. You will almost certainly be convicted of the offence based on the evidence.


This footage will not exist any more, we can be almost certain, I'm afraid. They often get wiped after a few weeks.


So have you tried to settle this out of court by offering to pay the fare due plus any administration fees?

Yes, there has been an offer from them for me to pay a fine. At the time I argued and provided receipts proving I had bought a valid ticket and therefore should not be fined. In theory, I could buy my weekly ticket on a Monday morning and by the time I get to Marylebone I have lost it. I would then be subject to a penalty fare and having to buy another weekly ticket as receipts are not accepted? Seems unreasonable especially with my extended history of buying weekly tickets.

So they wipe CCTV footage after a few weeks but would expect me to still be holding onto an expired ticket for months? Again, seems unreasonable.

 

[some bloke]

On duty at the time was a number of Ticket Officers

If the inspectors were at the only entrance for the platform, then a court may think it's unlikely you could have got on the train without permission (unless you had, say, flashed an out-of-date ticket or boarded somewhere else).

If you can make Chiltern see this is a substantial problem for their position, then they may drop the case as a result.

So you can now ask Chiltern what evidence they have:

a) that the inspectors were or were not there at the time,

and

b) that you did not board at that station near where you live and which you have weekly tickets from.

 

[Fritz300]

The odd thing about this case is that there is a standard process when someone travels having forgotten their season ticket. That is to sell them a new ticket, and then you claim back the cost of the new ticket providing proof of the Railcard. It's even set out in the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

If you possess a valid Season Ticket and/or photocard but were unable to present it when requested because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned may at their discretion refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 9, less an administration charge not exceeding £10.

In order to claim such a refund, you will need to provide the retailer from whom you bought your Season Ticket with your Season Ticket (and photocard if applicable), together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices.

So I'm baffled as to why you weren't advised of that, and asked to buy a new ticket before boarding your train.

I have since asked a number of staff members regarding this as the process has progressed and they have said exactly what you have said regarding buying another ticket. I was never advised this. I think the Ticket Officer at Wycombe was more than satisfied that I had purchased a ticket and may be decided to just let someone the other end deal with the situation, I really don’t know the answer to this

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, there has been an offer from them for me to pay a fine.

Why have you not accepted this? This seems like an unwise course of action if it came from a report for prosecution and we would likely not have advised you take it this far. Did they report you for prosecution or did they issue a Penalty Fare? It would really help to see the correspondence here, because as it stands you're in a pickle and you will either have:

a) a complete defence to being prosecuted if it came from the back of a Penalty Fare which was appealed in line with the Penalty Fares Regulations, or
b) an almost certain possibility of being convicted, leading to a criminal record and a much larger fine, plus more costs, and the requirement to pay a victim surcharge, if you decide to see them in court. It's hard to overstate how much the system and circumstances aren't in your favour here if this is the case.

At the time I argued and provided receipts proving I had bought a valid ticket and therefore should not be fined.

That's mitigation, but not a defence. Your defence is that you were allowed to board by an authorised person, which you will end up having no evidence of. And if you plan to use this as your defence in court - it will be your only defence - and you will be completely unable to substantiate it, and will be convicted of the offence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2025 ==

I have since asked a number of staff members regarding this as the process has progressed and they have said exactly what you have said regarding buying another ticket. I was never advised this. I think the Ticket Officer at Wycombe was more than satisfied that I had purchased a ticket and may be decided to just let someone the other end deal with the situation, I really don’t know the answer to this

The offence actually doesn't revolve around whether you bought a ticket or not - this is really, really important to understand.

 

[some bloke]

The burden of proof on you is at most on the balance of probabilities.

So at most, the requirement is that you satisfy the court you *probably* had permission - not that it's beyond reasonable doubt.

That is the context for discussions with Chiltern.

 

[Fritz300]

Why have you not accepted this? This seems like an unwise course of action if it came from a report for prosecution and we would likely not have advised you take it this far. Did they report you for prosecution or did they issue a Penalty Fare? It would really help to see the correspondence here, because as it stands you're in a pickle and you will either have:

a) a complete defence to being prosecuted if it came from the back of a Penalty Fare which was appealed in line with the Penalty Fares Regulations, or
b) an almost certain possibility of being convicted, leading to a criminal record and a much larger fine, plus more costs, and the requirement to pay a victim surcharge, if you decide to see them in court. It's hard to overstate how much the system and circumstances aren't in your favour here if this is the case.


That's mitigation, but not a defence. Your defence is that you were allowed to board by an authorised person, which you will end up having no evidence of. And if you plan to use this as your defence in court - it will be your only defence - and you will be completely unable to substantiate it, and will be convicted of the offence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2025 ==


The offence actually doesn't revolve around whether you bought a ticket or not - this is really, really important to understand.

I received a letter in the post 2 months (early October) after the incident from Chiltern Fraud team saying I had 28days or so to provide a valid ticket or pay a fine. I presented my case to them explaining what had occurred on the day and that although I no longer had the ticket I did have a receipt issued by their ticket office and bank statements proving my purchase of a valid ticket. They said this was unacceptable. I replied saying that receipts are issued as actual proof of purchase and I do not understand how it is not an acceptable means of proof. I heard nothing until this week (another 3 months on) when I was sent an SJPN.

I totally understand that this is not a case of proving I had a valid ticket (although they would have dropped the case had I provide one) but a case of breach of 18(1) 18(2) of not producing a valid ticket. Yes, my defence is that I was granted access to travel by an authorised persons but I will also use my travel history etc as probable evidence that I was granted access and didn’t evade a barrier

 

[AlterEgo]

I received a letter in the post 2 months (early October) after the incident from Chiltern Fraud team saying I had 28days or so to provide a valid ticket or pay a fine.

What does it actually say? Sorry but this is really important and paraphrasing things isn't going to help. If you won't post the letter, like everyone else here does, this will significantly limit the confidence and accuracy of any advice given.

Yes, my defence is that I was granted access to travel by an authorised persons but I will also use my travel history etc as probable evidence that I was granted access and didn’t evade a barrier

How do you plan to evidence that you didn't "evade a barrier" using this method? You are trying to evidence that you were given permission, which is different.

 

[John R]

I presented my case to them explaining what had occurred on the day and that although I no longer had the ticket I did have a receipt issued by their ticket office and bank statements proving my purchase of a valid ticket.

So are you saying that you no longer have your (then) valid season ticket, for the date in question?

 

[Fritz300]

So are you saying that you no longer have your (then) valid season ticket, for the date in question?

That is correct. It is a weekly ticket and expired in August 2024, I had thrown the ticket away not knowing that I would have to present it months down the line. I do still have the receipt issued (which are saved for expenses purposes) and bank statements for the purchase of a valid ticket. In most other cases a ticket is not deemed proof of purchase (Anyone can pick up discarded tickets from the floor) and a receipt is required as this is actual proof of purchase.

 

[robbeech]

I am sure you’ll agree that given a dispute occurred during the validity of that ticket that it was somewhat folly to discard the ticket at the time. This would almost certainly have yielded a much more favourable result for you, likely amounting to having to pay nothing.
Alas you are where you are with it so now is the time to make sure you have everything you need. There are really specific wordings with offences and the way operators or third parties acting on their behalf handle things differs significantly. It's not uncommon for the railway to make a hash of attempting to prosecute someone and i suspect it largely goes unnoticed unless challenged leading to them obtaining money that whilst technically due, in exact legal terms it was recovered unlawfully.

Without seeing the documents you've received (with your personal details and anything case specific like a case number or staff member name redacted) then it really is impossible to offer anything more than the very good but somewhat generic advice you've received so far.

You'll often be a victim of Schrodinger's CCTV footage regardless of how long has elapsed and it does seem that once again The Railway has conned a passenger into assuming The Railway will remain within the laws when it comes to giving permission to board, if we are to take your account at face value which is all we need to do to try to help.

If you regularly buy the exact same season ticket using the same payment method and can show this information, and you DO have at least a selection of these tickets available to offer as further evidence then this will almost certainly be enough to ticket the balance of probabilities box in your favour, and likely go some way to ticking the beyond reasonable doubt box too. Unfortunately it does seem that this is likely to have to be dealt with in court if you are unprepared to pay the settlement offered.

Moving forwards it's worth keeping all your tickets for a period of time, and if you have a camera on your phone or similar, take a photo of the ticket too as it's easier to refer to it should you ever need to do so again.

 

[some bloke]

What does the correspondence say about a deadline for the SJP notice?

I would probably write again:

- asking whether your last message reached the right person,

- enclosing copies of weekly tickets and/or evidence of frequent purchases of them if you haven't already;

- if appropriate raising the issue above about how you could have boarded the train without permission when the inspectors were there.

This all seems to me plausible:

realised I had left my purchased weekly ticket at home (I have been a regular weekly ticket buyer for over 10 years at a cost of £10000’s). On duty at the time was a number of Ticket Officers. I spoke to one of these officers and requested some advice on actions I should take, I showed him receipts and bank statements of my weekly ticket purchase. He was satisfied with my explanation and allowed me access and to board the train.

I will also use my travel history etc as probable evidence that I was granted access

The fact that you have receipts and relevant bank statements could make it more plausible that you were able to persuade the inspector to give permission, through showing them to him.

You could at least upload the correspondence you sent, with identifying details and reference numbers obscured. These may show ways that you can improve the presentation.

Then you can put a new draft on here for comment.

 

[Fritz300]

I am sure you’ll agree that given a dispute occurred during the validity of that ticket that it was somewhat folly to discard the ticket at the time. This would almost certainly have yielded a much more favourable result for you, likely amounting to having to pay nothing.
Alas you are where you are with it so now is the time to make sure you have everything you need. There are really specific wordings with offences and the way operators or third parties acting on their behalf handle things differs significantly. It's not uncommon for the railway to make a hash of attempting to prosecute someone and i suspect it largely goes unnoticed unless challenged leading to them obtaining money that whilst technically due, in exact legal terms it was recovered unlawfully.

Without seeing the documents you've received (with your personal details and anything case specific like a case number or staff member name redacted) then it really is impossible to offer anything more than the very good but somewhat generic advice you've received so far.

You'll often be a victim of Schrodinger's CCTV footage regardless of how long has elapsed and it does seem that once again The Railway has conned a passenger into assuming The Railway will remain within the laws when it comes to giving permission to board, if we are to take your account at face value which is all we need to do to try to help.

If you regularly buy the exact same season ticket using the same payment method and can show this information, and you DO have at least a selection of these tickets available to offer as further evidence then this will almost certainly be enough to ticket the balance of probabilities box in your favour, and likely go some way to ticking the beyond reasonable doubt box too. Unfortunately it does seem that this is likely to have to be dealt with in court if you are unprepared to pay the settlement offered.

Moving forwards it's worth keeping all your tickets for a period of time, and if you have a camera on your phone or similar, take a photo of the ticket too as it's easier to refer to it should you ever need to do so again.

Thank you and thanks to everyone on here for their responses and advice.

Having been granted authorised access at High Wycombe, explaining the situation to the Ticket Officer at Marylebone which included showing my receipt and having not been advised about the need to produce my ticket in the future I wasn’t too worried about a dispute. I did keep the ticket for a number of weeks but did discard it after a period assuming a decision had been made. The first contact from Chiltern Railways was 52 days after the incident.

I guess I will have my day in court and hope that the magistrate has some empathy and understanding, certainly more than Chiltern Railways with whom I have been travelling with for over 10 years

 

[John R]

Thank you and thanks to everyone on here for their responses and advice.

Having been granted authorised access at High Wycombe, explaining the situation to the Ticket Officer at Marylebone which included showing my receipt and having not been advised about the need to produce my ticket in the future I wasn’t too worried about a dispute. I did keep the ticket for a number of weeks but did discard it after a period assuming a decision had been made. The first contact from Chiltern Railways was 52 days after the incident.

I guess I will have my day in court and hope that the magistrate has some empathy and understanding, certainly more than Chiltern Railways with whom I have been travelling with for over 10 years

The magistrate can only decide based on the law, and the law required you to show a valid ticket on the journey. You will have to persuade them that you were indeed given authorisation to travel by an authorised member of staff at the start of your journey. That's not a matter of empathy and understanding unfortunately.

 

[Fritz300]

The magistrate can only decide based on the law, and the law required you to show a valid ticket on the journey. You will have to persuade them that you were indeed given authorisation to travel by an authorised member of staff at the start of your journey. That's not a matter of empathy and understanding unfortunately.

I agree and I’m hoping I can convince them that there is a very high likelihood that this was the case.

I can certainly prove that I did have a valid ticket purchased for my journey and that I have an extensive history of buying such tickets. Producing that valid ticket at a later date would have been accepted by Chiltern Railways so why not a receipt as proof of purchase?

On arrival at Marylebone I sort out staff, again there was no attempt to evade. At each stage I have told the truth and that story has been consistent regarding the access granted by an authorised person (coz it’s what happened). I am now attempting to gain CCTV footage.

I’m just trying to paint a picture of myself and how I have and always legally travelled and why on the day in question would I decide to jump a barrier and then at Marylebone not attempt to do exactly the same? That would not make sense and my history suggests it’s not something I do

 

[John R]

I am now attempting to gain CCTV footage.

That won't be available after this length of time.

 

[Fritz300]

That won't be available after this length of time.

A bit like my actual ticket that they expected me to keep.

At least I can say to the court that I asked for it but they were unable to provide this evidence.

 

[Cuthbert]

A bit like my actual ticket that they expected me to keep.

At least I can say to the court that I asked for it but they were unable to provide this evidence.

Any company (not just the railway) that has CCTV will only keep footage for around 31 days.

From the ICO

How can we comply with the data protection principles when using surveillance systems?

ico.org.uk

 

[Fritz300]

Any company (not just the railway) that has CCTV will only keep footage for around 31 days.

From the ICO

How can we comply with the data protection principles when using surveillance systems?

ico.org.uk

I get that and was being a bit facetious, just seems more double standards that they would expect that I would still have an expired ticket some 50+ days later.

 

[AlterEgo]

A bit like my actual ticket that they expected me to keep.

They didn't expect you to keep anything; it was immaterial as to whether an offence had been committed. That Chiltern are demanding the ticket and not solely the receipt, and that we are not able to see the correspondence, limits the confidence of my advice here and makes me question Chiltern's motivations in this regard.

We do know that Chiltern settle almost every time and it is rare for them to play hardball like this. We have seen this only once recently, where a poster was found out to have lied both to the forum and to Chiltern in their defence, and Chiltern did insist on taking them to court (and then settled at the last moment for a high sum of money).

There is nothing to be gained from refusing to show anonymous and well-meaning posters who want to help you the sum of the correspondence between you and Chiltern. Their prosecutions people do read this part of the forum - it's public - and if they've seen this thread they will know exactly who you are from the nature of the case, so you have already effectively waived your anonymity in that respect.

I’m just trying to paint a picture of myself and how I have and always legally travelled and why on the day in question would I decide to jump a barrier and then at Marylebone not attempt to do exactly the same? That would not make sense and my history suggests it’s not something I do

I don't know why you wouldn't simply pay the settlement; it is what you would be advised to do from the start had you come to us on Day 1, with an option to recover that settlement or appeal to their better nature afterward.

Nobody is accusing you of attempting to jump a barrier here; this is not the only way to pass a gateline, and in any case, this is immaterial. Everyone gets caught at Marylebone, honest or not, by the barriers. Of course you attempted to explain the situation to the staff there. Everyone arriving without a ticket does, because you can't get out. You should note that Chiltern will also simply suggest that showing you've purchased tickets in the past is neither proof they were used properly, nor by you. I would not like to be taking this to court.

 

[John R]

We do know that Chiltern settle almost every time and it is rare for them to play hardball like this. We have seen this only once recently, where a poster was found out to have lied both to the forum and to Chiltern in their defence, and Chiltern did insist on taking them to court (and then settled at the last moment for a high sum of money).

I'm guessing that Chiltern playing hardball was inevitable once the OP declined (and continues to do so) the settlement offer.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

As others have said we cannot give proper advice without seeing the paperwork. If you can upload a redacted copy of all the paperwork then forum members are in a much better place to be able to advise.

As things currently stand you are guilty of an offence under Railway Byelaw 18.2. If the matter ends up in court then you will be found guilty. However harsh it sounds, the Magistrates can only judge the case based on what the law says, and you were unable to hand over a valid ticket when asked to do so.

If an authorised person gave you permission to travel then this is a defence. The issue you have is demonstrating that this did take place. Who were they? What was their name? Did they give you anything authorising travel? How would you describe them etc are the sort of thing I would expect to be able to show if you were going to demonstrate that you had permission to travel.

Your previous purchase history isn't a defence. Frustrating certainly, but it's like saying I'm sorry I've been caught speeding I obeyed the limit for years every time I've driven down this road.

Season ticket usually require an accompanying photocard. It might be different for a weekly season ticket but there should be a record that the season ticket links to the photocard number. This is the forst thing I would be asking Chiltern to check in addition to showing the receipt (does the receipt give the photocard number by any chance?)

It's a shame that you didn't seek our advice back wheb Chiltern first contacted you, but we are where we are. If you want to keep this out of court then it might be worth considering employing a solicitor who specialises in rail fare evasion. They don't come cheap but they will probably have a better chance of getting Chiltern to look at the case again.

 

[Cuthbert]

I get that and was being a bit facetious, just seems more double standards that they would expect that I would still have an expired ticket some 50+ days later.

You'd be surprised how many do keep tickets. I have seen people with a ton of tickets in a different wallet as I check the train. Not double standards asking. They are trying to give you a life line if you did keep it as proof.

 

[WesternLancer]

I get that and was being a bit facetious, just seems more double standards that they would expect that I would still have an expired ticket some 50+ days later.

Just commenting generally, you have my sympathy with what has happened and the way you have been treated by some parts of the railway.

If you do pursue this to court I hope you can update the thread with a summon what happens.

I think that would be of interest to forum regulars and future people with problems.

We don’t often get reports from court as most people get settlements with advice from here, or have cases with little hope other than a prosecution where they will be found guilty and don’t return to the forum having not heard what they want to hear.