CrossCountry's Driver Shortage

[Class 170101]

In an ideal GBR world, you'd not have XC drivers, LNER drivers, GWR drivers etc, but just a common GBR driver pool at each depot who'd be able to drive almost all routes and traction passing through that area. (I'm assuming Scotrail and TfW would keep their own, and you might still keep a local/express distinction).

That way there'd be a bigger pool of spares available if the booked driver is unavailable.

Of course that would require harmonising T&Cs and a proper 'one railway' approach, so is a lot more difficult than it sounds.

Not agreed. This would drive a large amount of training, traction and route refreshing, which adds complexity, cost and risks to performance. It is no coincidence that the TOCs with the best performance are generally those who have relatively simple traction and route cards per depot: c2c, Merseyrail, GA, Overground, Elizabeth Line.

IMHO the answer is more focused route and traction knowledge where practical.

@Bald Rick is right. Even in BR days whilst train crew might have had more route knowledge than they do now they still didn't know everything regarding both routes and traction. The Industry wouldn't go back to it because of safety which has improved massively since 1993 by knowing less routes but in more detail, less chance of mistakes. The days of massive route cards like the legendary Saltley are over, I would suggest.

Spares would still be in links as well so you may possibly not have the right spare in the right place.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Traction training would probably be required yes, but the point of having a 'shared pool' of GBR drivers at each depot would be that all drivers in the pool already sign the relevant routes, having worked them under their previous TOC.

As a hypothetical example, suppose you currently have GWR and XC drivers based at Plymouth, all of whom already sign the route Bristol-Plymouth-Penzance.
At the moment, the GWR crew only sign 80x and the XC crew only sign Voyagers.
Therefore, if an XC service arrives at Plymouth with no driver to take it on to Penzance, it gets cancelled, even if there is a GWR driver sitting spare in the depot who signs Plymouth-Penzance (because they work it every day for GWR).

Under GBR, if you gradually trained up the ex-GWR drivers on Voyagers and the ex-XC drivers on 80x, then either driver can take either train forward, meaning more efficient use of resources and fewer 'No Driver' cancellations.
They already sign the required route, so no need for them to be trained on it.

Obviously, the detail would be a lot more complex, and you'd have to make sure that all drivers got regular turns on each type of traction to keep them current.

The same could even potentially happen with Train Managers.

However, I can't see this idea gaining any traction while the XC and GWR drivers are on different T&Cs, and the railway maintains its 'silo' mentality. (See the other thread about drivers from one TOC being ostracised for sitting in the part of a mess room that 'belongs' to another!).

 

[Bald Rick]

As a hypothetical example, suppose you currently have GWR and XC drivers based at Plymouth, all of whom already sign the route Bristol-Plymouth-Penzance.
At the moment, the GWR crew only sign 80x and the XC crew only sign Voyagers.
Therefore, if an XC service arrives at Plymouth with no driver to take it on to Penzance, it gets cancelled, even if there is a GWR driver sitting spare in the depot who signs Plymouth-Penzance (because they work it every day for GWR).

There will be occasions today where trains are cancelled because of no driver where there is a spare driver at a depot that signs the right traction and right route, but the ‘work’ is allocated to a different depot in the same TOC….

 

[357]

Traction training would probably be required yes, but the point of having a 'shared pool' of GBR drivers at each depot would be that all drivers in the pool already sign the relevant routes, having worked them under their previous TOC.

As a hypothetical example, suppose you currently have GWR and XC drivers based at Plymouth, all of whom already sign the route Bristol-Plymouth-Penzance.
At the moment, the GWR crew only sign 80x and the XC crew only sign Voyagers.
Therefore, if an XC service arrives at Plymouth with no driver to take it on to Penzance, it gets cancelled, even if there is a GWR driver sitting spare in the depot who signs Plymouth-Penzance (because they work it every day for GWR).

Under GBR, if you gradually trained up the ex-GWR drivers on Voyagers and the ex-XC drivers on 80x, then either driver can take either train forward, meaning more efficient use of resources and fewer 'No Driver' cancellations.
They already sign the required route, so no need for them to be trained on it.

Obviously, the detail would be a lot more complex, and you'd have to make sure that all drivers got regular turns on each type of traction to keep them current.

The same could even potentially happen with Train Managers.

However, I can't see this idea gaining any traction while the XC and GWR drivers are on different T&Cs, and the railway maintains its 'silo' mentality. (See the other thread about drivers from one TOC being ostracised for sitting in the part of a mess room that 'belongs' to another!).

You have picked a very specific example and are not seeing the wider picture. Where does that train go later in the day? What about places like Leeds where Northern and LNER/TPE/XC have completely different routes?

For the record...

Plymouth XC
Traction:
220/1
Routes:
Plymouth - Bristol - Birmingham (plus diversions)
Plymouth - Penzance

Plymouth GWR
Traction:
150,158,80x,HST 2+4
Routes:
Plymouth - Taunton
Plymouth - Par
Plymouth - Gunnislake
Liskeard - Looe
Par - Newquay
Taunton - Reading (link dependant)

Plymouth HSS GWR
Traction:
80x,HST 2+4 150 ,57 + MKIII Sleepers
08, 220/1 (depot only)
Routes:
Plymouth - Paddington (via Westbury)
Bristol TM - Paddington
Westbury - Swindon (via Melksham)
Westbury - Bath (via Bradford on Avon)
Newton Abbot - Paignton
Plymouth - Penzance
Plymouth - Gunnislake
Par - Newquay

 

[irish_rail]

You have picked a very specific example and are not seeing the wider picture. Where does that train go later in the day? What about places like Leeds where Northern and LNER/TPE/XC have completely different routes?

For the record...

Plymouth XC
Traction:
220/1
Routes:
Plymouth - Bristol - Birmingham (plus diversions)
Plymouth - Penzance

Plymouth GWR
Traction:
150,158,80x,HST 2+4
Routes:
Plymouth - Taunton
Plymouth - Par
Plymouth - Gunnislake
Liskeard - Looe
Par - Newquay
Taunton - Reading (link dependant)

Plymouth HSS GWR
Traction:
80x,HST 2+4 150 ,57 + MKIII Sleepers
08, 220/1 (depot only)
Routes:
Plymouth - Paddington (via Westbury)
Bristol TM - Paddington
Westbury - Swindon (via Melksham)
Westbury - Bath (via Bradford on Avon)
Newton Abbot - Paignton
Plymouth - Penzance
Plymouth - Gunnislake
Par - Newquay

Indeed it won't work everywhere. But at places like Plymouth, it would work very well. HSS already sign Voyagers for the depot, so technically all thar would be needed is a couple of days on the mainline and you have a fully conversant extra Voyager driver if required.

 

[Harpo]

Old World: Even under BR there was rarely 'everybody, everything, everywhere'. There were link structures that enabled gradual gains in experience. Links put new drivers on simple low paid work and progressed them through to top links that had the best paid work such as long distance 'mileage' turns.

There were occasionally new regular diagrams that crossed links. That meant either a re-write or some training if it was unavoidable. If it was a one off special, then it would gain a route or traction conductor needing two (or more!) drivers for one job.

Even under BR, it was quite possible to have an uncovered job that a same-depot spare couldn't work. But, overtime enhancements etc. made sure it didn't stay uncovered and especially on Sundays where most LDCs ensured fair-shares.

New World: Even if training for cross-cover were viable there is still a T&Cs trap & especially money. Any pay differentials will generate higher/lower issues. There will also likely be in-diagram conditions that don't match such as driving durations, PNB arrangements, shift lengths etc.. Even the (absolutely huge!) training programme will come up against T&C issues, including DOO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2024 ==

Indeed it won't work everywhere. But at places like Plymouth, it would work very well. HSS already sign Voyagers for the depot, so technically all thar would be needed is a couple of days on the mainline and you have a fully conversant extra Voyager driver if required.

Plus picking your way through privatisation's forest of stopping boards to learn the new stopping points, door arrangements and despatch procedures at every station on those routes.

 

[1D54]

1V60. Dundee - Penzance has just arrived 5 minutes late. Alot of things must have gone right today and of course the public deserve nothing less but credit where it is due to XC.

 

[Coalpits]

Many apologies if I’ve got this incorrect, but from many other Threads & Posts on staff shortages, am I correct in thinking that weekend working on the railway is voluntary?

If this is correct then I find it unbelievable. Any industry which provides a 7day/week service should have work rotas which include weekend working. It should not be voluntary. I worked for 40 years in the *power industry in a power station. Just imagine if power workers decided not to work at the weekend? Full 24/7 working was my shift rota.

*This goes for any other business/industry which provides an every day, all day service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2025 ==

No, weekend working is not voluntary. Saturday is a normal day for rostering purposes at every company I can think of. Sunday is either in the working week,and therefore a normal day with an additional day off in the week, or not. If it is not , then each TOC will have their own arrangements. At my depot,we work a rotating rest day pattern, so Monday and Tuesday off one week, Wednesday and Thursday off the following week and Friday and Saturday off the week after that. The vast majority of drivers at my company have chosen to have Sunday in the working week. I hope this clarifies the issue for you. Also for anyone who reads the mail, express, sun, telegraph, or watches sky news.

 

[Horizon22]

Old World: Even under BR there was rarely 'everybody, everything, everywhere'. There were link structures that enabled gradual gains in experience. Links put new drivers on simple low paid work and progressed them through to top links that had the best paid work such as long distance 'mileage' turns.

Links still exist in the "New World" too of course.

 

[philthetube]

Agreed




Agreed



Not agreed. This would drive a large amount of training, traction and route refreshing, which adds complexity, cost and risks to performance. It is no coincidence that the TOCs with the best performance are generally those who have relatively simple traction and route cards per depot: c2c, Merseyrail, GA, Overground, Elizabeth Line.

IMHO the answer is more focused route and traction knowledge where practical.

It would need a lot of initial training but then rosters could be organised to ensure both route and stock are refreshed as required

 

[TravelDream]

A lot of cancellations today on the Cardiff-Nottingham route due to 'conductor shortages' today. Wonder if someone put the wrong cancellation code in as that's a fairly rare reason compared to driver shortages.

Poor passengers on the last service of the day being told to take a GWR train to Newport and then bus replacement. Nice late night for them.

 

[NEDdrv]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2025 ==

No, weekend working is not voluntary. Saturday is a normal day for rostering purposes at every company I can think of. Sunday is either in the working week,and therefore a normal day with an additional day off in the week, or not. If it is not , then each TOC will have their own arrangements. At my depot,we work a rotating rest day pattern, so Monday and Tuesday off one week, Wednesday and Thursday off the following week and Friday and Saturday off the week after that. The vast majority of drivers at my company have chosen to have Sunday in the working week. I hope this clarifies the issue for you. Also for anyone who reads the mail, express, sun, telegraph, or watches sky news.

There are a couple of ways links at XC are done, at my depot we have the same as you state with a rolling pattern, at all Saturdays are part of the roster (really find it strange that anyone thinks it’s not) Sundays are committed meaning you are required to work unless you can get it covered by another driver working overtime (which is a flat rate), put a not available in where if a spare man can cover it within rostering agreements you would get day off or it is before or after a week of annual leave (where you can request it off) including the middle Sunday during 2 weeks leave. As a note bank holidays are just normal shifts on XC

 

[WAB]

Today is currently showing as 40% cancellations Birmingham to Cardiff with the last couple of services west of Bristol cancelled as well as a couple of services north of Leeds, to Leicester, and on the NW-Bournemouth route.

I suspect more will follow, but at least there’s early signs of strengthening to Cardiff on the services that are running.

 

[duffield]

Today looks appallingly bad particularly towards the ends of the routes. The number of total cancellations is a relatively modest 9 on journey check, but the list of truncated services just goes on and on and on, and not at all confined to the Cardiff route. All due to "a shortage of drivers" as usual. So where *are* all the newly trained drivers then?

My sister was going to visit me from Thursday to Sunday via XC this week; I explained the Sunday situation on XC to her and she changed her plans to Friday to Monday. I will never travel on XC on a Sunday (and try to avoid them the rest of the week if possible).

 

[class 9]

Today looks appallingly bad particularly towards the ends of the routes. The number of total cancellations is a relatively modest 9 on journey check, but the list of truncated services just goes on and on and on, and not at all confined to the Cardiff route. All due to "a shortage of drivers" as usual. So where *are* all the newly trained drivers then?

My sister was going to visit me from Thursday to Sunday via XC this week; I explained the Sunday situation on XC to her and she changed her plans to Friday to Monday. I will never travel on XC on a Sunday (and try to avoid them the rest of the week if possible).

Speaking to a recently qualified New Street Driver last week, it's a shortage of assessors to pass Drivers out on recently learned routes.

 

[PG]

Speaking to a recently qualified New Street Driver last week, it's a shortage of assessors to pass Drivers out on recently learned routes.

It sounds like (some) progress has been made, as in drivers have been recruited and once they get through this passing-out backlog then the situation should improve.

 

[TravelDream]

Today is currently showing as 40% cancellations Birmingham to Cardiff with the last couple of services west of Bristol cancelled as well as a couple of services north of Leeds, to Leicester, and on the NW-Bournemouth route.

Cardiff is the ugly sister of the CrossCountry network.
Though things haven't been so bad post New Year. Today is back to December level bad.

 

[GordonT]

I wonder if there would be an easier way to enable "normals" to interpret the following which featured in one of the https://www.journeycheck.com/crosscountry/ entries (for today's 1308 ex Edinburgh to Plymouth). Possibly a pictogram of the actual train composition?

"UPDATED: Multiple Voyager Formation:
(Front)FDCBA+GIJL(Rear)
Customers for stations beyond Bristol Temple Meads should travel in Coaches A - F only."

 

[WAB]

I wonder if there would be an easier way to enable "normals" to interpret the following which featured in one of the https://www.journeycheck.com/crosscountry/ entries (for today's 1308 ex Edinburgh to Plymouth). Possibly a pictogram of the actual train composition?

Given Tyrell struggles with apostrophes, I don’t think that pictograms are very likely unless a new system is used to supplement Tyrell.

 

[Snow1964]

Cardiff is the ugly sister of the CrossCountry network.
Though things haven't been so bad post New Year. Today is back to December level bad.

If you go on the cross country trains website, there is green banner at the top, which has live status as Good service reported.

So do they have a reporting failure ?

Click into the green good bar and get :
18 cancellations, 3 delays, 11 accessibility updates, 13 station updates, 16 formation updates, 19 catering.

There is a line by line section too, all are green good service at 14:45 today, so if you click on the updates for Cardiff, Birmingham, Derby and Nottingham and guess what that is also green and good service

I might be cynical, but how can that lot be classed as good unless they have thresholds only just above sewerage pipe levels

Service Updates | CrossCountry Trains

Book quickly and easily. Buy cheap train tickets, find live train times, explore Railcards, and more today with CrossCountry.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

 

[Mag_seven]

I thought the previous Transport Secretary told XC that if their performance didn't improve the book would be thrown at them?

 

[duffield]

Speaking to a recently qualified New Street Driver last week, it's a shortage of assessors to pass Drivers out on recently learned routes.

Well that's something; at least it gives a prospect that things may still improve - it was easy to get the impression that the driver recruitment programme had made no difference (I was wondering if for example so many older drivers had suddenly retired that it had negated the new recruits).

But given the appalling level of service currently Cross Country really should communicate better (and *not*, as per comments above, just insist there is a "good service"). It just looks so bad when you have an emergency timetable for months which is supposed to allow the required training, the emergency timetable finishes - and nothing improves. Some sort of explanation - as you've managed to obtain - at least gives passengers some hope!

 

[Russel]

I thought the previous Transport Secretary told XC that if their performance didn't improve the book would be thrown at them?

Given it's said that the treasury are controlling the purse strings, other than making for good headlines, how would giving Arriva a good kicking actually make a meaningful difference to how XC perform?

 

[Efini92]

@Bald Rick is right. Even in BR days whilst train crew might have had more route knowledge than they do now they still didn't know everything regarding both routes and traction. The Industry wouldn't go back to it because of safety which has improved massively since 1993 by knowing less routes but in more detail, less chance of mistakes. The days of massive route cards like the legendary Saltley are over, I would suggest.

Spares would still be in links as well so you may possibly not have the right spare in the right place.

That’s quite a sweeping statement to suggest drivers in the BR days had less detail in route knowledge.
If anything I’d say the opposite. Drivers were expected to know far more on routes and traction.

 

[Dr Hoo]

That’s quite a sweeping statement to suggest drivers in the BR days had less detail in route knowledge.
If anything I’d say the opposite. Drivers were expected to know far more on routes and traction.

Not sure about that. Even back in the 1980s I can recall us being uneasy that some drivers continued to sign routes that as far as we could tell they hadn’t been diagrammed over for years or been given extra ‘refresher’ days for.

 

[Efini92]

Not sure about that. Even back in the 1980s I can recall us being uneasy that some drivers continued to sign routes that as far as we could tell they hadn’t been diagrammed over for years or been given extra ‘refresher’ days for.

You can’t compare the few to the majority.
There was far more required of a drivers route and traction knowledge then, then there is today.

 

[Carlisle]

You can’t compare the few to the majority.
There was far more required of a drivers route and traction knowledge then, then there is today.

True, TPWS, GSMR, DRA & instant technical advice via a company mobile etc simply didm’t exist.then.

 

[43066]

That’s quite a sweeping statement to suggest drivers in the BR days had less detail in route knowledge.
If anything I’d say the opposite. Drivers were expected to know far more on routes and traction.

They were, but standards were lower. If you had a SPAD you could call the signaller and “true up”. No downloads, no TPWS and much less emphasis on safety and following procedures correctly. Not to mention sinking a few pints during a PNB (at least up until the early 90s). A different world!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2025 ==

TPWS

TPWS doesn’t make drivers’ jobs easier. The DRA reduces the risk of having a SPAD if used correctly, but having a SPAD is a much bigger deal. GSMR just saves having to clamber out of the cab and use an SPT.

Tech advice over the phone/GSMR, perhaps, but fault rectification isn’t seen as much a part of the role as it used to be, certainly on the passenger side.

 

[Horizon22]

That’s quite a sweeping statement to suggest drivers in the BR days had less detail in route knowledge.
If anything I’d say the opposite. Drivers were expected to know far more on routes and traction.

But there was also a totally different safety culture. What we now call "operational incidents" were more common or not even reported at all. For route knowledge now if it is a chunk of route that has not been driven in 6 months, it is esentially no longer signed. I doubt that was the same in BR days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2025 ==

Not sure about that. Even back in the 1980s I can recall us being uneasy that some drivers continued to sign routes that as far as we could tell they hadn’t been diagrammed over for years or been given extra ‘refresher’ days for.

There's a difference between "uneasy" and it actually not happening at all of course...

 

[Harpo]

That’s quite a sweeping statement to suggest drivers in the BR days had less detail in route knowledge.
If anything I’d say the opposite. Drivers were expected to know far more on routes and traction.

BR era drivers were given x days route learning for each route and simply ‘signed’ it afterwards without assessment.

An extremely diverse range of activities occupied those route learning days! I’ll stop there.