UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[61653 HTAFC]

Please read up on the subject, including on this thread. EV batteries are very different beasts (for the better) compared to your phone.




Not that rare, I’ve had the same, and so has my best friend. Different makes / models / locations too.

Again, my point was that it's relatively new technology and it's hard to separate fact from myth. So even if I could source a reliable EV for a price comparable to my current car, and was able to charge it relatively cheaply, there are still too many unknowns for me to make the switch. Perhaps that will change in five years or so, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, my point was that it's relatively new technology and it's hard to separate fact from myth. So even if I could source a reliable EV for a price comparable to my current car, and was able to charge it relatively cheaply, there are still too many unknowns for me to make the switch. Perhaps that will change in five years or so, but I'm not holding my breath.

It's not particularly new technology. The reason for the difference from phone batteries is well known - it's that car batteries are actively cooled, whereas phones are not (and indeed aren't even particularly good heatsinks, particularly because everyone keeps them in cases which are insulating). The original Nissan Leaf didn't have active cooling (that was new technology) and so ranges on used ones are poor.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's not particularly new technology. The reason for the difference from phone batteries is well known - it's that car batteries are actively cooled, whereas phones are not (and indeed aren't even particularly good heatsinks, particularly because everyone keeps them in cases which are insulating). The original Nissan Leaf didn't have active cooling (that was new technology) and so ranges on used ones are poor.

Didn't think I needed to underline the word "relatively" again... Alas I was wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Didn't think I needed to underline the word "relatively" again... Alas I was wrong.

It's not even relatively new. Lithium-ion battery technology is very well-established and well-understood. A quick Google suggests it dates back to the 1970s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's not even relatively new. Lithium-ion battery technology is very well-established and well-understood. A quick Google suggests it dates back to the 1970s.

It is relatively new in the automotive sector compared to internal combustion engines. 1900s EVs and 1970s milk floats used lead acid batteries. A few edge cases do not negate the decades of experience we have with conventional ICEs. It's only in the last decade or so that battery EVs have come close to widespread adoption.

 

[trebor79]

That's essentially what I was getting at when I mentioned that EVs are relatively new technology- they're not as familiar as ICEs, so there are way more unknowns (both known and unknown, to paraphrase Dick Cheney). I've seen what you've posted here, and I've read and heard other things which contradict that- and I lack the knowledge and experience to know which is accurate.

Nonsense. Follow the manufacturers recommendations on the handbook that comes with the car.

My car is approaching 14 years old (11 plate) and I bought it at 12.5 years old, so if I buy a comparable EV in a few years any warranty on the battery will have expired. Electric cars don't lend themselves to bangernomics or even to not-quite-bangernomics, and for many people (myself included) it's that or the bus.

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So does your 14 year old car still have a manufacturer warranty on the engine and gearbox?
Did it have an 8 year 120,000 mile warranty from new?

The advice seems to change as often as the weather. I'll refer you to my above point about it being a relatively new technology. I know where I stand with a petrol car, so I'll stick with that for now.

No it doesn't. It's different advice for different types of battery. Just do what the manual says.

 

[Bikeman78]

I guess has anyone actually reported it as abandoned? I don't think Councils are especially proactive in hunting for abandoned vehicles!

It was mentioned on Wales online in 2016. Cardiff council is hopeless. I cannot think of anything that I have reported that has been resolved. I certainly wouldn't trust them to install charging facilities attached to lamp posts.

 

[Harpers Tate]

.....I buy a comparable EV in a few years any warranty on the battery will have expired.....

I'd suggest that it's not a valid conclusion that, if the warranty has expired, the battery itself will have also expired. What evidence there is, is quite to the contrary.

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There is that dreaded ten year life span of the battery......

It may be "dreaded" by some, but what evidence there is suggests that it's not actually a thing - not even close.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd suggest that it's not a valid conclusion that, if the warranty has expired, the battery itself will have also expired. What evidence there is, is quite to the contrary.

Kindly point out where I said it would have... It wasn't me that brought up the subject of warranties of any kind.
When you're buying an older car there's an element of risk due to the age of the car, and that's reflected in the price you pay for the vehicle. However a well-maintained internal combustion engine from the 2000s is good for 200,000+ miles. I'm somewhat sceptical that an EV battery will still be good with 120k and 12 years on it. Although I'm also sceptical that a more modern ICE will last as well too... "En****ification" has affected pretty much everything!

 

[The Ham]

It is relatively new in the automotive sector compared to internal combustion engines. 1900s EVs and 1970s milk floats used lead acid batteries. A few edge cases do not negate the decades of experience we have with conventional ICEs. It's only in the last decade or so that battery EVs have come close to widespread adoption.

The use of lots of things will be relatively new if they are used by a different industry, it doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't suitable.

For example, batteries in phones at some point was relatively new, as technology improved so has the batteries in phones.

As others have pointed out the batteries in cars have improved from the early Leaf versions. In 10 years time they'll be better still than currently, however with the average car age at scrapping being about 15 years old there will be some less good cars but they'll be mostly being used infrequently and/or for shorter journeys. In the same way that older ICE vehicles are.

For example, even amongst those who buy older cars, few would consider a petrol car with 140,000 miles on the clock. However, those who have such a car may well be happy to keep running it for a few more years if it generally keeps going. (I know we've just got rid of a petrol car with 160,000 miles on the clock and that was because the last few years or just struggled with the emissions test on the MOT but just passed).

Likewise, once someone had an older EV, as long as the battery is good enough they keep running the car, even if others wouldn't buy it.

Of course different people have different levels of acceptable risk. Some will drive a 20 year old car whilst others only want a sub 4 year old car whilst it's under warranty and with breakdown cover. Same with EV's some will buy one to try it out, others won't buy one unless they can be sure that it'll do 700 miles on a single charge (even though they'll do far less than that).

 

[E27007]

Typically - far more sophisticated battery management, including (but not limited to) temperature control. Heat is the main cause of premature failure in domestic devices and they typically have little or no temperature management. Cars, on the other hand (with few exceptions) do.

I'll mention this again: most (or all?) cars come with a main battery warranty against capacity reduction* or other failure for 7 or 8 years and 100k+ miles. No manufacturer is going to knowingly put a product out there with a warranty on which there is a high probability of claim.

(to some threshold below 100%; 70% is typical, I believe).

The warranty is compulsory, the ZEV mandate, an Act of Parliament,to qualify as a ZEV, requires the manufacturer to offer a warranty , in the terms of the warranty the battery can degrade to 70% but not lower, by 8 years or 100,000 miles.
The manufacturers lobbied for a lower limit of 60%

 

[bspahh]

When you're buying an older car there's an element of risk due to the age of the car, and that's reflected in the price you pay for the vehicle. However a well-maintained internal combustion engine from the 2000s is good for 200,000+ miles. I'm somewhat sceptical that an EV battery will still be good with 120k and 12 years on it. Although I'm also sceptical that a more modern ICE will last as well too...

Time will tell.

I bought my diesel Mondeo in 2014, and then the consensus on forums was that the dual mass fly wheel would explode, the timing belt would break, and the particulate filter would need expensive repairs. I'm sure all of those things have happened, but 172k miles later (and one replacement timing belt), they haven't happened to me.

There is a survivorship bias. There are cars which didn't last, and they have now been scrapped.

I am sure that there will be EVs that get scrapped. I think this is more likely to be from software issues, than with the battery or motor.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I am sure that there will be EVs that get scrapped. I think this is more likely to be from software issues, than with the battery or motor.

Scrapping due to software issues? I would be very suprised if a software-driven EV can't have a laptop plugged in to reprogam it.

 

[johncrossley]

How many miles (or km) have the electric buses in the Netherlands done, which were new circa 2017? The Dutch use electric buses on interurban routes much more than the UK operators so will have likely travelled a long distance by now. They also generally use opportunity charging so will also be a good test of longevity as they will be receiving fast charges several times a day.

The Ember coaches in Scotland may also be of interest to assess longevity. They have only been going since 2020 but run almost exclusively on long distance routes on main roads, so they will have accumulated a lot of miles. They use minor roads to enter city centres but that is only a small proportion of mileage.

 

[Trainman40083]

I wouldn't say a 10 year old car is a banger, it is still quite new and worth a bit

I'd also say a current 13 year old car is far better than a 13 year old car built in the 1970s/1980s

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am sure that there will be EVs that get scrapped. I think this is more likely to be from software issues, than with the battery or motor.

This, however, will equally affect modern ICEs which are totally software driven and is not specific to EVs. Just as it is affecting, for instance, Class 165/166 DMUs.

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I'd also say a current 13 year old car is far better than a 13 year old car built in the 1970s/1980s

This is almost certainly true - cars of that vintage were only really good for 100K miles or so at most unless really cherished and a lot was spent on them (indeed, on cars of that vintage the odometer only usually went up to 99,999, with the expectation that would be unlikely to be reached). However I'd still call a ten year old car fairly old.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Kindly point out where I said it would have..

I don't believe I did.

 

[Trainman40083]

This, however, will equally affect modern ICEs which are totally software driven and is not specific to EVs. Just as it is affecting, for instance, Class 165/166 DMUs.

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This is almost certainly true - cars of that vintage were only really good for 100K miles or so at most unless really cherished and a lot was spent on them (indeed, on cars of that vintage the odometer only usually went up to 99,999, with the expectation that would be unlikely to be reached). However I'd still call a ten year old car fairly old.

I had a 1973 Austin 1300. It certainly had terminal rust, by 10 years old.

 

[jon0844]

It's not particularly new technology. The reason for the difference from phone batteries is well known - it's that car batteries are actively cooled, whereas phones are not (and indeed aren't even particularly good heatsinks, particularly because everyone keeps them in cases which are insulating). The original Nissan Leaf didn't have active cooling (that was new technology) and so ranges on used ones are poor.

But, it should be added, the ranges are still proving to be fine for a lot of people. Because of the way batteries degrade there's going to be a long time before it drops to a point where the cars can't be used (because they're down to just 5 or 10 miles between charges).

Right now the Leafs seem to be at the ideal sweet spot of still having a usable range for shopping trips, school runs and a short commute or drive to a station car park - and being really cheap.

And the Leaf was a bad way to treat batteries so the sub-£1000 bangers of tomorrow will be even better.

I have admitted before that my reason for not swapping up an old Leaf for less money than I paid for an e-bike js because I hated the look of the early models.

I am sure that's why more people aren't buying them, but a Renault Zoe or BMW i3 are both cars that have still got appeal. Likewise the e-Up and the other VW group small cars. 10 years from now it will be Dacia Springs and Renault 5s etc.

 

[Bald Rick]

Again, my point was that it's relatively new technology and it's hard to separate fact from myth.

In your mind perhaps, but I’m afraid it’s just not credible. The Nissan Leaf was launched the same year as the Apple iPad. I wouldnt say that’s relatively new technology. It is, in my mind at least, very simple to separate fact from myth when it comes to EVs - doing some reading on a cross section of car news websites will help you. And mistrust everything on the subject in the Daily Telegraph.

there are still too many unknowns for me to make the switch.

I don’t think there are any more unknowns with an EV than with an ICE. What sort of thing were you thinking of, as I’m sure many of us can help clear a few things up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But, it should be added, the ranges are still proving to be fine for a lot of people. Because of the way batteries degrade there's going to be a long time before it drops to a point where the cars can't be used (because they're down to just 5 or 10 miles between charges).

Right now the Leafs seem to be at the ideal sweet spot of still having a usable range for shopping trips, school runs and a short commute or drive to a station car park - and being really cheap.

Absolutely, they're great runarounds, indeed some people for whom a long distance "main car" EV might not quite work yet but who need a two-car family might do well out of one. And by doing so are helping make the air cleaner where it most matters.

As for looks, there does seem to be something about making EVs look odd, though that now seems to be calming down now manufacturers are realising people won't buy what look like really bad concept cars - they want their cars to look like cars, despite there being no particular reason an EV has to look like an ICE, the latter being constrained by needing an engine at the front (other locations having proven somewhat unsuccessful over the years, mostly for reasons of cooling).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In your mind perhaps, but I’m afraid it’s just not credible. The Nissan Leaf was launched the same year as the Apple iPad. I wouldnt say that’s relatively new technology. It is, in my mind at least, very simple to separate fact from myth when it comes to EVs - doing some reading on a cross section of car news websites will help you. And mistrust everything on the subject in the Daily Telegraph.




I don’t think there are any more unknowns with an EV than with an ICE. What sort of thing were you thinking of, as I’m sure many of us can help clear a few things up.

"Relatively new" meaning "in comparison to internal combustion". We have over a century of engineering experience with internal combustion. Ipads and the like are a completely different use-case, and irrelevant to mobility.

I can do a fair bit of the maintenance on my car myself, I would not be able to do that with an EV. That said, I'd have the same issue with a new internal combustion car too, thanks to all the unnecessary tech they come packaged with now!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can do a fair bit of the maintenance on my car myself, I would not be able to do that with an EV.

The mechanical bits are exactly the same. So if you needed to do brake pads and discs, you could, for example. Or you could replace suspension components if you needed to.

A lot isn't needed though - oil change? Nope. Filter? Nope. Plugs? Nope. What other stuff are you thinking of? If you do engine rebuilds yourself fair enough, but in the likely life of the car you aren't going to need a traction motor rewind, for example, it's not a train doing millions of miles.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can do a fair bit of the maintenance on my car myself, I would not be able to do that with an EV. That said, I'd have the same issue with a new internal combustion car too, thanks to all the unnecessary tech they come packaged with now!

Forgive me if I have this wrong, but it sounds like your concern is with modern cars generally, and not EVs specifically.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Forgive me if I have this wrong, but it sounds like your concern is with modern cars generally, and not EVs specifically.

It's both, to be honest. I don't like the movement towards everything being controlled from a touchscreen rather than physical buttons, and it seems that Euro-NCAP or whatever they're called are at least partially in agreement with me on that front. My issue with EVs specifically- besides them all being a bit too tech-heavy for my tastes, is the cost/charging issues that make them unsuitable for my present living arrangements. I actually enjoy driving, and I enjoy having a manual gearbox with the feedback you get from a traditional drivetrain. At some point in the future I'll probably have no choice but to make the change, but I'll delay it as long as I can.

It's a bit like comparing a steam locomotive or a classic diesel to a modern EMU. The EMU might well be "better" by most metrics (maybe not seat comfort!), but only a select group even within the rail enthusiast community will get nostalgic for 701s when they're retired. To most people they're just an appliance, and that's how I view EVs- they're basically smartphones with wheels.

 

[trebor79]

However a well-maintained internal combustion engine from the 2000s is good for 200,000+ miles.

That is not my experience. My last ICE car (and it was my very last ICE car) the engine started burning oil by 90,000 miles and was completely worn out by 105,000 miles. I traded it in, was honest it was clapped out and they gave me way too much money for it. Looked it up and it failed 2 MOT tests on emissions after that date and was never presented for a test after that.

I'm somewhat sceptical that an EV battery will still be good with 120k and 12 years on it. !

Why? There are loads of Tesla's and others done way over that mileage and still fine. There's a mobile EV servicing companies with a fleet of MG5s, some of which are over 150,000 miles, rapid charged regularly and still going strong.
The Leaf without active battery cooling degrades badly. Basically nothing else does.

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I actually enjoy driving, and I enjoy having a manual gearbox with the feedback you get from a traditional drivetrain.

I was the same, but the feedback from an EV is a zillion times better.

 

[Bald Rick]

My issue with EVs specifically …. is the cost/charging issues that make them unsuitable for my present living arrangements.

Ok, but this isn’t a myth / fact issue; it’s the circumstances you live in and (perhaps) an unwillingness to consider how small changes in your circumstances would make an EV attractive.

I think from earlier posts that you have no off street parking. You consider that an issue, but the fact is that it is perfectly possible to have an EV and not have off street parking. I know several people who do this now. Some still charge at home (when they do manage to park outside their home) by running a cable across the pavement (with a cable ramp). Most charge elsewhere - at the shops (often free), at work (some get that free), at car parks, or at charging stations where charges vary. It’s entirely possible, and on average works out cheaper in energy for all of them than an ICE, and (crucially), takes less of their time to do so.

In terms of costs of the cars themselves, well that comes down to age of the car you might want to buy. If you are only ever in the market for a 10 year old car with 80k+miles on the clock, you are limited to what EVs are out there (albeit there are many more now than even a year ago). But if that is the case, then that is something that will rapidly change, and frankly the proortion of car buyers who are in that segment of the market is rather a small percentage.

I actually enjoy driving, and I enjoy having a manual gearbox with the feedback you get from a traditional drivetrain.

So do I. Then I bought a CVT car 20 years ago and found I enjoyed that more. Then I drove an EV (Skoda Enyiaq) and enjoyed that even more - the control and feedback were incredible.

Obviously there will be variance by models, in the same way it does with ICE vehicles. I imagine that Nissan Leafs drive to a close approximation of an airship that’s had a heavy night on the port and cheese, whilst a Porsche Taycan will be close to a cheetah having sniffed a lone antelope from sixty paces on a spring morning in the savannah. (Similarly one of my family has a large Nissan diesel that is unspeakably horrid to drive. Another has a Golf TSi and that is fabulous).

And if that still doesn’t convince you, then there’s always the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N. Sounds and drives like an ICE Hot hatch. Just with 650hp. Look it up!

 

[bspahh]

Scrapping due to software issues? I would be very suprised if a software-driven EV can't have a laptop plugged in to reprogam it.

A year or so ago, I saw on a forum that there were issues with the collision avoidance on KIA Niros. It would apply the brakes when it detected a problem.

It seemed to be caused by noisy data from the sensors. This was for nearly new car, with a 7 year manufacturers warranty. The fix was to clean or replace the sensors, and then update the software to handle the noisy data.
I assume that that issue will have been fixed, as it will be covered by the warranty. However, I wonder whether how many manufacturers will decide they can't be bothered supporting an old car, when it is out of warranty and just focus on selling new ones. They might not release the source code for the firmware.

This, however, will equally affect modern ICEs which are totally software driven and is not specific to EVs.

Definitely.

 

[trebor79]

A year or so ago, I saw on a forum that there were issues with the collision avoidance on KIA Niros. It would apply the brakes when it detected a problem.

It seemed to be caused by noisy data from the sensors. This was for nearly new car, with a 7 year manufacturers warranty. The fix was to clean or replace the sensors, and then update the software to handle the noisy data.
I assume that that issue will have been fixed, as it will be covered by the warranty. However, I wonder whether how many manufacturers will decide they can't be bothered supporting an old car, when it is out of warranty and just focus on selling new ones. They might not release the source code for the firmware.

By the time the warranty has run out and/or the manufacturer is no longer releasing software updates, issues like this will all have been worked out.
It's not going to randomly develop bugs years later.

 

[jon0844]

By the time the warranty has run out and/or the manufacturer is no longer releasing software updates, issues like this will all have been worked out.
It's not going to randomly develop bugs years later.

Plus hopefully the EU will have improved right to repair laws, and made it so car makers must make it possible for parts to be available - either from themselves or third-parties given the necessary information/specs, for a considerable time.

Meanwhile in the USA, Trump will probably appease the car makers by making cars expire at 3 years old and need to be unlocked at the price of a new car or something.

The future of motoring will be interesting, but it won't be down to the means of powering them. We let car makers introduce subscriptions or features that belong to a person and not the car, and it's only going to become a nightmare.