Transport for Wales Class 230

[Elecman]

I think all the comments about Birkenhead North staff doing a bad job is completely uncalled for. The 777s don't have any "proper" maintenance at North, they're maintained at Kirkdale. The majority of 507/8 maintenance years were prior to Stadler taking over the depot - when they slowed down maintenance on 507/8s as they were going for scrap soon so no point spending money on them, just like all retiring fleets.

The 230s unreliability is entirely down to poor design. The modular gensets, battery rafts etc are all crammed into steel cases designed to be swapped easily in a small siding with little to no engineering facilities using a forklift - one of the 230s original selling points. If I remember rightly the fires in the early days were caused by poorly routed hoses located in a daft place. The batteries get too hot/too cold because there is little to no ventilation/cooling for them in the summer and no heating for them in the winter. The gensets shut down in summer because the radiators are tiny and clog with pollen very quickly. The staff at Birkenhead North have managed to get them into a state they can actually be used, and monitoring is in place on the various modifications to see which is most effective. If anything they've done a cracking job getting to this point.

Absolutely

 

[childwallblues]

I think all the comments about Birkenhead North staff doing a bad job is completely uncalled for. The 777s don't have any "proper" maintenance at North, they're maintained at Kirkdale. The majority of 507/8 maintenance years were prior to Stadler taking over the depot - when they slowed down maintenance on 507/8s as they were going for scrap soon so no point spending money on them, just like all retiring fleets.

The 230s unreliability is entirely down to poor design. The modular gensets, battery rafts etc are all crammed into steel cases designed to be swapped easily in a small siding with little to no engineering facilities using a forklift - one of the 230s original selling points. If I remember rightly the fires in the early days were caused by poorly routed hoses located in a daft place. The batteries get too hot/too cold because there is little to no ventilation/cooling for them in the summer and no heating for them in the winter. The gensets shut down in summer because the radiators are tiny and clog with pollen very quickly. The staff at Birkenhead North have managed to get them into a state they can actually be used, and monitoring is in place on the various modifications to see which is most effective. If anything they've done a cracking job getting to this point.

Spot on with your comments.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I wonder if the 230s (and 769s) might've faired better if they'd been designed such that some of the additional equipment (or relocated existing equipment) was inside the body of the carriage (sort of like the Flirts) rather than trying to find ways of squeezing in additional equipment below the sole bar?

 

[danielnez1]

I wonder if the 230s (and 769s) might've faired better if they'd been designed such that some of the additional equipment (or relocated existing equipment) was inside the body of the carriage (sort of like the Flirts) rather than trying to find ways of squeezing in additional equipment below the sole bar?

I am pretty sure that was proposed by another company wanting to convert the D78 stock to diesel. AFIK the proposal was to place an above floor diesel genset immediately behind the drivers cab.

 

[jamesst]

To put a cherry on the cake... Stadler seems to do a not so good job in maintaining the 230's at Birkenhead North TMD - the same place where the Merseyrail 777's receive minor repairs and cleaning.

Couple of points to that.
They basically rent the depot space at North to do maintenance on the 230s off Stadler, it's not Stadler themselves that do the maintenance on them.
Secondly staffing at North depot is a shadow of what it once was.
Lastly -although there are some future plans to change this- the majority of 777 maintenance is done at Kirkdale.

 

[Prime586]

I wonder if the 230s (and 769s) might've faired better if they'd been designed such that some of the additional equipment (or relocated existing equipment) was inside the body of the carriage (sort of like the Flirts) rather than trying to find ways of squeezing in additional equipment below the sole bar?

Putting the generators and batteries beneath the solebar isn't the problem (it's how it's done on the vast majority of other MU designs). It's how Vivarail did it, in the quest for 'modularity', that caused the problems. If the diesel angines were a)of a type intended for generator operation (such as the Cummins unit they were looking to upgrade to) instead of repurposed van/light truck engines, and b) out in free air with large, open radiators and intercoolers instead of cooped up in steel boxes with poor ventilation then they wouldn't have had the problems with overheating (or fires). The same issue also afflicted the installtion of the batteries - they were put into the same enclosed steel boxes but with no temperature management system for cooling or heating the cells.

 

[Philip Roberts]

Putting the generators and batteries beneath the solebar isn't the problem (it's how it's done on the vast majority of other MU designs). It's how Vivarail did it, in the quest for 'modularity', that caused the problems. If the diesel angines were a)of a type intended for generator operation (such as the Cummins unit they were looking to upgrade to) instead of repurposed van/light truck engines, and b) out in free air with large, open radiators and intercoolers instead of cooped up in steel boxes with poor ventilation then they wouldn't have had the problems with overheating (or fires). The same issue also afflicted the installtion of the batteries - they were put into the same enclosed steel boxes but with no temperature management system for cooling or heating the cells.

I assume this is what they've fixed with the upgrade to 006/008?

 

[507016]

Does anyone know what 230 is out and about today? It doesn’t seem to be showing on RTT

 

[WirralLine]

Does anyone know what 230 is out and about today? It doesn’t seem to be showing on RTT

230007 morning, 230009 afternoon.

 

[Tony2]

Had a run on 230006 on Tuesday, seems to be running well after it’s modifications.

I note that 230006 is allocated to run all day today, is this a first?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-23/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[anthony263]

Had a run on 230006 on Tuesday, seems to be running well after it’s modifications.

I note that 230006 is allocated to run all day today, is this a first?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-23/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Not the 1st time one of the two modified units 006 or 008 has done it i think this will be the 2nd occasion

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jan 2025 ==

Had a run on 230006 on Tuesday, seems to be running well after it’s modifications.

I note that 230006 is allocated to run all day today, is this a first?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-23/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

006 seems to be doing better running to time compared to the 197s.

 

[Chris125]

Not the 1st time one of the two modified units 006 or 008 has done it i think this will be the 2nd occasion

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jan 2025 ==


006 seems to be doing better running to time compared to the 197s.

008 has actually done quite a few full day runs recently, must be in double figures now? That's basically the only unit doing them though, presumably a different spec and/or for testing purposes.

 

[WirralLine]

Had a run on 230006 on Tuesday, seems to be running well after it’s modifications.

I note that 230006 is allocated to run all day today, is this a first?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-23/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

It was booked to go in but no unit available. I have been trying to get an update on the 230 situation but nobody seems to know anything!

 

[Philip Roberts]

It was booked to go in but no unit available. I have been trying to get an update on the 230 situation but nobody seems to know anything!

If it's still only 006 and 008 that can run all day, I can't see them moving to two 230s a day any time soon?

 

[Chris125]

If it's still only 006 and 008 that can run all day, I can't see them moving to two 230s a day any time soon?

It might be enough for one diagram, but I've yet to see 006 do any regular all day running.

 

[Invincible]

Not the 1st time one of the two modified units 006 or 008 has done it i think this will be the 2nd occasion

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jan 2025 ==


006 seems to be doing better running to time compared to the 197s.

on Realtimetrains Seems to made it from 06:36 through to the evening

 

[Chris125]

Now they seem comfortable doing full days with 006 and 008, it looks like they're giving 2300010 a try.

 

[childwallblues]

Now they seem comfortable doing full days with 006 and 008, it looks like they're giving 2300010 a try.

I boarded 230010 at 1033 on time at Shotton today. The conductor had to sell me a ticket as the office at Shotton was closed due to damage to the door. Obviously serious enough to be covered in police tape. The conductor informed me that the unit had a fault. At Upton an engineer boarded the train with his computer and opened a panel under a bench seat in the centre car. He must have fixed the fault by Bidston as the train left on time for Wrexham Central.
230010 was my final TfW 230 required for haulage so it was a good day for me.

 

[WirralLine]

I boarded 230010 at 1033 on time at Shotton today. The conductor had to sell me a ticket as the office at Shotton was closed due to damage to the door. Obviously serious enough to be covered in police tape. The conductor informed me that the unit had a fault. At Upton an engineer boarded the train with his computer and opened a panel under a bench seat in the centre car. He must have fixed the fault by Bidston as the train left on time for Wrexham Central.
230010 was my final TfW 230 required for haulage so it was a good day for me.

They often get on at Upton, plug the laptop in and monitor it from Upton-Bidston-Upton, checking genset temperature, battery levels, charging status etc. It's more common since the mods have been done.

 

[D365]

I’m surprised that the units don’t have a RCM (remote condition monitoring) facility.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Almost February 2025 and still we have no progress on the use of the 230s getting any better. Whats the latest excuse from the sympathy voters? A complete joke and total waste of time and money.

 

[WirralLine]

Almost February 2025 and still we have no progress on the use of the 230s getting any better. Whats the latest excuse from the sympathy voters? A complete joke and total waste of time and money.

They've been using one unit without the midday swop this week, which is positive progress is it not?

 

[Sam 76]

Almost February 2025 and still we have no progress on the use of the 230s getting any better. Whats the latest excuse from the sympathy voters? A complete joke and total waste of time and money.

They now have 3 units able to run all day without faults. A major step up on where the situation was.

If anything the 197s are the ones causing the issues now. Won’t be long until 230s increase in usage

 

[Chris125]

Whats the latest excuse from the sympathy voters?

Was that comment necessary?

Read the thread and you'll see there's been real progress recently - two units (006/008) now regularly and reliably operate full days and 230010 has just done it's first full day too. On the face of it the upgrades seem to be working and will hopefully allow a second 230 diagram.

 

[anthony263]

Almost February 2025 and still we have no progress on the use of the 230s getting any better. Whats the latest excuse from the sympathy voters? A complete joke and total waste of time and money.

It's the 197s that are causing problems on the line now not the 230s.

In fact reliably has improved since the modifications were made

 

[Zontar]

Improvement has been noted, but it should also be noted they're still failing on a regular basis, just not as much.

Make or break when they send them in fulltime

 

[Caaardiff]

Improvement has been noted, but it should also be noted they're still failing on a regular basis, just not as much.

Make or break when they send them in fulltime

When have they failed?

 

[Philip Roberts]

I guess, when four have reliably run all day, there'll be enough units to operate two of the three services?

 

[WirralLine]

I guess, when four have reliably run all day, there'll be enough units to operate two of the three services?

The current diagrams are already setup for 2x230s out all day on 2 diagrams. The second one finishes at Wrexham Central around 2030 before running back empty to Birkenhead North. I'm not sure what margins TFW are wanting, but in theory only 2 need to be available and both can go in service at the same time, as one can rescue the other if required.

Theyre currently running STP (short term plan), with the diagram ive just mentioned being covered by a 197. The 197 currently runs empty from Central to General platform 3, forming the Shrewsbury service at around 9pm. No idea how that service will work when the 230 runs the diagram as the long term plan has the ECS from Central going back to Birkenhead North. Presumably a unit will come from Chester instead to work the Wrexham-Shrewsbury service.

In other words its all ready to go for 2x230 operation, presumably it's a step closer now they've been trying units all day on 1 diagram. They've been behaving nicely too.

As somebody who works them, I can echo the above comments, it's the 197s that are causing the problems lately and has been for a while. Havnt heard of a 230 having to limp back to base for a long long time.

 

[Philip Roberts]

The current diagrams are already setup for 2x230s out all day on 2 diagrams. The second one finishes at Wrexham Central around 2030 before running back empty to Birkenhead North. I'm not sure what margins TFW are wanting, but in theory only 2 need to be available and both can go in service at the same time, as one can rescue the other if required.

Theyre currently running STP (short term plan), with the diagram ive just mentioned being covered by a 197. The 197 currently runs empty from Central to General platform 3, forming the Shrewsbury service at around 9pm. No idea how that service will work when the 230 runs the diagram as the long term plan has the ECS from Central going back to Birkenhead North. Presumably a unit will come from Chester instead to work the Wrexham-Shrewsbury service.

In other words its all ready to go for 2x230 operation, presumably it's a step closer now they've been trying units all day on 1 diagram. They've been behaving nicely too.

As somebody who works them, I can echo the above comments, it's the 197s that are causing the problems lately and has been for a while. Havnt heard of a 230 having to limp back to base for a long long time.

That's really useful. Thank you. Hopefully we'll see two diagrams soon