RMT Strike (Avanti) February

[High Dyke]

Latest announcement on Avanti West Coast website. Revised dates for industrial action announced.

Strike action | Travel Information | Avanti West Coast

Information on train times, strike information and the latest travel updates on our network.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Image. Picture shows industrial action travel information.

 

[Watershed]

How much are the guards being paid relative to this, the suggestion is that it's 1.25 times base for non contractual overtime.

The advertised job below says £52k, for a train manager, so given 52 weeks and (assuming) 35 hours working week that's £28.57/hour, at 1.25 time is £35.71, so for a 7 hour shift is £250. If it's an 8 hour shift it's £285. £15-50 doesn't seem an unbridgeable gap until a full recruitment drive is instigated to increase staff numbers by ~14% and the rota redone with Sundays as part of the 35 hours. Is this effectively the same rate if the managers higher base is considered, consultants get paid their normal rate to cover junior doctors?


*https://www.careers.avantiwestcoast...month-secondment?source=avantiwestcoast.co.uk << oddly for internal transfers only, if they're that short staffed they should be recruiting internally and externally.

That is the salary for an On-Board Manager, and as the advert says:

Please note this role is not based onboard the train - it is a people management role- managing the onboard crews

£300 for an OBM to come in on a day off doesn't seem exorbitant given the above.

 

[43066]

How much are the guards being paid relative to this, the suggestion is that it's 1.25 times base for non contractual overtime.

The advertised job below says £52k, for a train manager, so given 52 weeks and (assuming) 35 hours working week that's £28.57/hour, at 1.25 time is £35.71, so for a 7 hour shift is £250. If it's an 8 hour shift it's £285. £15-50 doesn't seem an unbridgeable gap until a full recruitment drive is instigated to increase staff numbers by ~14% and the rota redone with Sundays as part of the 35 hours. Is this effectively the same rate if the managers higher base is considered, consultants get paid their normal rate to cover junior doctors?


*https://www.careers.avantiwestcoast...month-secondment?source=avantiwestcoast.co.uk << oddly for internal transfers only, if they're that short staffed they should be recruiting internally and externally.

That (badly worded) advert appears to be for a guard manager rather than an actual guard role, but I agree with the general point you’re making.

 

[Kev77]

How much are the guards being paid relative to this, the suggestion is that it's 1.25 times base for non contractual overtime.

The advertised job below says £52k, for a train manager, so given 52 weeks and (assuming) 35 hours working week that's £28.57/hour, at 1.25 time is £35.71, so for a 7 hour shift is £250. If it's an 8 hour shift it's £285. £15-50 doesn't seem an unbridgeable gap until a full recruitment drive is instigated to increase staff numbers by ~14% and the rota redone with Sundays as part of the 35 hours. Is this effectively the same rate if the managers higher base is considered, consultants get paid their normal rate to cover junior doctors?


*https://www.careers.avantiwestcoast...month-secondment?source=avantiwestcoast.co.uk << oddly for internal transfers only, if they're that short staffed they should be recruiting internally and externally.

TMs work a 41hr week. Leave and pensionable pay is 35hrs but the salary you quote is based on 41hrs. The hourly rate is around £24. Managers get a £300 a shift. Most only volunteer for short jobs under and around 6 hours.

 

[Facing Back]

Lumo trains are rostered to have two members of customer facing staff (with whichever silly name they have this week). AIUI they can still run if one member of staff is absent, and could legally run without either as the train is DCO, but Lumo's policy is to always have at least one present.

Understood, Thank you.

 

[Towers]

Lumo trains are rostered to have two members of customer facing staff (with whichever silly name they have this week). AIUI they can still run if one member of staff is absent, and could legally run without either as the train is DCO, but Lumo's policy is to always have at least one present.

Are we sure about that? That would be DOO, not DCO - is the full length of their route cleared for DOO operation?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2024 ==

What do you feel he should have been doing?

(And presumably he wasn't watching TikTok during station calls?)

Come on now, I don’t think anyone is arguing that’s what Train Managers are expected to do, are they?!

 

[Starmill]

Can Lumo trains run if the steward is not available? If they are safety critical I assume not. I think I recall being on one of their services and being told there was no catering as there was steward aboard but it sounds like I was mistaken.

I don't think Lumo run without a train manager? Sometimes I believe the catering is seriously impacted by the workload on Lumo's trains, for example the train managers can't get the luggage out of the way enough to be able to move the trolley through. As Watershed notes above if only one of the two or more is available due to disruption, and the train is full and standing, realistically the workload is too heavy for them to be able to do a full catering service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2024 ==

Are we sure about that? That would be DOO, not DCO - is the full length of their route cleared for DOO operation?

I think what the post you're replying to is suggesting is that there is no technical barrier to doing so, but realistically nothing turns on that since Lumo haven't proposed it, and they always wait for a minimum of one steward and one driver before setting off.

 

[MalaiseForever]

What do you feel he should have been doing?

(And presumably he wasn't watching TikTok during station calls?)

Quite literally anything on the train that isn’t watching TikTok?

Dealing with passenger queries, making announcements, and anything else that is in the job description of a TM.

 

[godfreycomplex]

To think this used to be Virgin Trains (not perfect we know) but there was relative industrial peace for the 19 years they ran West Coast, totally poisoned now. We have this cherade until 2026 at least.

I do recall that some people on this forum were crowing over the demise of Virgin essentially because they disliked being told to “arrive awesome”. I wonder what they think now…

 

[Carlisle]

I do recall that some people on this forum were crowing over the demise of Virgin essentially because they disliked being told to “arrive awesome”. I wonder what they think now…

That was merely their final sound bite, essentially privatisation bought a long honeymoon period after superseding BR with a generally more stylish brand able to offer generous restructuring deals in comparison to the relatively poor BR basic pay..

 

[Par]

Latest announcement on Avanti West Coast website. Revised dates for industrial action announced.

Strike action | Travel Information | Avanti West Coast

Information on train times, strike information and the latest travel updates on our network.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

View attachment 171196

Image. Picture shows industrial action travel information.

It’d be useful if they allowed anyone with Advances to get a refund now and make alternative arrangements.

I’ve got Euston - Manchester Advances booked for Sunday February 23rd, so quite a while away yet, but these disputes don’t seem to get resolved quickly, so I have little faith that it will be resolved by then. If I could get a refund now, I could get some cheap Advances with LNER, who I’m using for the outward leg.

 

[43066]

It seems an odd strategy, and harks back a couple of years to when the DfT seemed intent on stringing out strike action rather than just making a sensible agreement to end it. Back then of course they eventually admitted that their approach had done nothing but cost them needlessly, and it would have been far cheaper to settle it earlier. We seem, for some bizarre reason, to be back there again? What on earth is the point in making agreements to get drivers doing overtime but then still having the service crippled because you’re penny pinching with the guards?!

This! The whole scenario seems bizarre.

 

[Kev77]

I appreciate the conversation regarding wages over last decade but please remember, this action is about rest day work. TMs currently work 41 hours a week, often more in reality. Why should they give up a rest day if it's not worth their while, particularly when managers doing the same job are getting paid handsomely. The calculations discussed earlier are inaccurate as the hourly rate is worked out at 35 hours a week. TMs hourly rate is £24.6. All we are asking for in fairness and transparency.

 

[Jimini]

Just spotted this:

Avanti train strikes in January cancelled to allow talks

The strike dates suspended are Sunday 19 January and Sunday 26th January.

www.bbc.com

Avanti train strikes in January cancelled to allow talks​

7 hours ago
Planned strike action on Avanti West Coast train services has been suspended for the rest of January.
The strike dates that are cancelled are Sunday 19 January and Sunday 26th January with the aim of allowing intensive talks to take place following recent approaches by Avanti to the RMT union.
RMT members who are train managers at Avanti West Coast are still planning to strike on each Sunday from 2 February until 25 May unless an agreement is reached.
"This suspension reflects our good will and commitment to finding a resolution to this rest day working dispute," a RMT spokesperson said.
"We are responding to overtures from Avanti and hope meaningful progress towards a negotiated settlement can be made during these talks," the spokesperson added.
RMT members had initially planned to strike in the run-up to Christmas 2024, but these plans were called off last-minute.
Before Christmas, the union said a revised proposal put to them was rejected by 83% of the 400 members involved in the dispute, before announcing new strike dates.
In a previous interview with the BBC, the RMT's general secretary Mick Lynch claimed that train companies have chosen to pay their own managers "extortionate rates" for working on their days off.
He said those who are union members are paid lower rates.
Avanti has previously said it is "disappointed" by the strikes and has advised customers to travel "either side of strike dates or claim a full refund."
It also warned that the reduced timetable on strike days could result in busy trains.

 

[Kev77]

IMO this shows that the RMT are acting in good faith now that meaningful talks are planned. Hopefully a fair and sensible offer is made and the remaining strike dates can be cancelled.
The cynic in me though notes that there is planned engineering work over those two weekends coming up meaning that the trent valley will be closed and hardly any managers sign via the west mids. I sincerely hope I'm overthinking and that it is the former situation rather than the later.

 

[Elecman]

I asked for the thread to be reopened last night to post that but there was an error and the thread couldn’t be found despite the message from the Mods saying it was reopened

 

[Jamesrob637]

A few more trains did manage to run on Sunday, for example:

Realtime Trains | 1T28 1156 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston | 19/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 1T28 1156 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston on 19/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Followed by

Realtime Trains | 1A28 1215 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston | 19/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 1A28 1215 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston on 19/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Only twenty minutes apart.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There were also additional evening trains - there was for instance a departure from Euston to Manchester around 8pm showing on the board - I think it was 2015.

 

[davehsug]

Has anything been anounced about whether there is a strike next Sunday - 2nd February?

 

[dk1]

Has anything been anounced about whether there is a strike next Sunday - 2nd February?

Avanti have been tweeting that yes at the moment it’s on.

 

[185]

Not from the RMT official page, but the rep doing the negotiating has said Sun 2 Feb is back on.

They make the suggestion that... 'Avanti announced that talks would not take place.'

Oh deary.

 

[Starmill]

Has anything been anounced about whether there is a strike next Sunday - 2nd February?

I believe this date was never called off. As such, unless it is within a couple of days, it'll be the strike timetable.

 

[Kev77]

Two Sunday strikes were cancelled in good faith by the RMT in the promise of meaningful talks. Avanti have renegade on that and refused talks as other strike dates remain. I believe that Avanti had no intention of making an improvemed offer, they acted in a disingenuous way to run services on days when the trent was closed. Very few managers sign diversions via the west mids.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Two Sunday strikes were cancelled in good faith by the RMT in the promise of meaningful talks. Avanti have renegade on that and refused talks as other strike dates remain. I believe that Avanti had no intention of making an improvemed offer, they acted in a disingenuous way to run services on days when the trent was closed. Very few managers sign diversions via the west mids.

Do Avanti managers not sign the West Mids route at all? Or just those at Wolves.

Is it definitely Avanti that are causing this, or are they not being given permission to negotiate by the DfT again?

 

[Clarence Yard]

They can’t make an improved offer unless the DfT say so. It’s not Avanti’s decision.

 

[dk1]

They can’t make an improved offer unless the DfT say so. It’s not Avanti’s decision.

If that's the case still, then I am confused as to why the RMT agreed a suspension of action.

 

[Starmill]

If that's the case still, then I am confused as to why the RMT agreed a suspension of action.

Only for two days.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Because they were promised talks. Presumably, the DfT subsequently told Avanti that they didn’t want them to make any offer.

 

[dk1]

Only for two days.

Yes i know but still why?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

Because they were promised talks. Presumably, the DfT subsequently told Avanti that they didn’t want them to make any offer.

That seems somewhat nieve to believe things on that basis. I know its a different government but both RMT & ASLEF have been caught out before.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Yes i know but still why?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==


That seems somewhat nieve to believe things on that basis. I know its a different government but both RMT & ASLEF have been caught out before.

I guess it's with good intent. Give them a chance, they've shown their hand now so strikes will resume for the foreseeable unfortunately. Other TOCs will follow