RMT Strike (Avanti) February

[whitrope]

The RMT are not going to be agreeing to that, very much the opposite!

Ultimately that’s just another suggestion to mask the lack of appropriate staff of the relevant grade being available to cover the work.

Fair enough-I was just trying to think outside of the box. The rail industry is in crisis and can’t keep kicking real reform into the long grass forever

 

[43066]

Are they considered safety critical, I forget?

Yes, because they are trained to step in and dispatch the train if there’s an issue with the driver’s DOO equipment, was my understanding.

 

[Sealink]

Surely this will be called off. Every Sunday from 12 Jan to 25 May is crazy

ScotRail a few years ago:

*Hold my (alcohol free) beer*

 

[Bletchleyite]

ScotRail a few years ago:

*Hold my (alcohol free) beer*

I think what it essentially is is "strikes for the foreseeable future until the matter is settled". I'd be surprised if it ran its course, I reckon there will be a few offers and it'll be settled by mid Feb or so.

 

[BAFRA77]

Quick question - if they somehow managed to come to an agreement quickly - how quick would this need to be to allow services to run fully on the 31st - or have we passed the point of no return to reinstate the previous rostering etc for that day?

 

[Towers]

I just replied to this post from @SCDR_WMR over on the WMR strike thread:

“ Looks like WMT have a agreement going forward, seen the figures but not sure it's fully accepted by ASLEF yet.

Conductors failed to agree today, asked for similar to drivers, company unable to discuss new terms without productivity included as per DfT directives. Drivers has no terms attached. “

As I commented there, this appears to be a bit of a current DfT theme - agree pricey RDW payments for drivers, and then tell guards they don’t deserve an equivalent. I presume that is essentially the issue here.

It seems an odd strategy, and harks back a couple of years to when the DfT seemed intent on stringing out strike action rather than just making a sensible agreement to end it. Back then of course they eventually admitted that their approach had done nothing but cost them needlessly, and it would have been far cheaper to settle it earlier. We seem, for some bizarre reason, to be back there again? What on earth is the point in making agreements to get drivers doing overtime but then still having the service crippled because you’re penny pinching with the guards?!

 

[12LDA28C]

Surely the resolution of the dispute lies with either (1) recruiting enough TMs so that RDW is not required, or (2) changing T&Cs to being Sundays into the working week. Neither of which will be quick / easy. But until one of these is done, the RMT will continue to hold the trump hand and can threaten strike action / work to rule whenever it feels like it

It's not a case of doing (1) or (2). If you do (2), you also need to do (1) as you need more staff to run the service if Sundays are incorporated into the working week.

 

[JamesT]

I just replied to this post from @SCDR_WMR over on the WMR strike thread:

“ Looks like WMT have a agreement going forward, seen the figures but not sure it's fully accepted by ASLEF yet.

Conductors failed to agree today, asked for similar to drivers, company unable to discuss new terms without productivity included as per DfT directives. Drivers has no terms attached. “

As I commented there, this appears to be a bit of a current DfT theme - agree pricey RDW payments for drivers, and then tell guards they don’t deserve an equivalent. I presume that is essentially the issue here.

It seems an odd strategy, and harks back a couple of years to when the DfT seemed intent on stringing out strike action rather than just making a sensible agreement to end it. Back then of course they eventually admitted that their approach had done nothing but cost them needlessly, and it would have been far cheaper to settle it earlier. We seem, for some bizarre reason, to be back there again? What on earth is the point in making agreements to get drivers doing overtime but then still having the service crippled because you’re penny pinching with the guards?!

I have seen news stories from when Louise Haigh was sacked suggesting the 15% payrise agreed earlier in the summer had been done without the prior approval of the PM and the Chancellor. Perhaps the new Transport Secretary has been given strict instructions on spending?

 

[TUC]

This is a union scenting an opportunity having seen a government which appears all too willing to spend lots of public money to end disputes.

 

[Goldfish62]

I have seen news stories from when Louise Haigh was sacked suggesting the 15% payrise agreed earlier in the summer had been done without the prior approval of the PM and the Chancellor. Perhaps the new Transport Secretary has been given strict instructions on spending?

I find that rather hard to believe given the iron grip the Treasury has on the nation's finances.

 

[TUC]

I find that rather hard to believe given the iron grip the Treasury has on the nation's finances.

There is no way in terms of government processes that spending of that level would be agreed without Treasury approval.

 

[Towers]

I have seen news stories from when Louise Haigh was sacked suggesting the 15% payrise agreed earlier in the summer had been done without the prior approval of the PM and the Chancellor. Perhaps the new Transport Secretary has been given strict instructions on spending?

What “Spend it all on the drivers, tell the guards to sod off, don’t worry if it causes strikes…” ?!

If that’s the brief she’s been given then it’s shockingly incompetent!

 

[Kev77]

Labour have allowed the TOCs (Avanti) to negotiate directly with the RMT. I suspect the DfT will now get more involved after yesterday's announcement. First group will have to justify why they are willing to pay £300 for a manager doing a TMs job but are not willing to incentives an actual TM to give up a valuable rest day. IMO if Avanti hadn't paid managers this premium this action would be a rest day work ban. Due to the already toxic relationship between managers and front line staff, this payment for managers is a real kick in the teeth and has resulted in this action.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Labour have allowed the TOCs (Avanti) to negotiate directly with the RMT. I suspect the DfT will now get more involved after yesterday's announcement. First group will have to justify why they are willing to pay £300 for a manager doing a TMs job but are not willing to incentives an actual TM to give up a valuable rest day. IMO if Avanti hadn't paid managers this premium this action would be a rest day work ban. Due to the already toxic relationship between managers and front line staff, this payment for managers is a real kick in the teeth and has resulted in this action.

Would removing this incentive from managers, or offering a reduced one to both sets of people, end the action even if it might mean fewer willing to do it? If so that would be a quick fix.

 

[Kev77]

Would removing this incentive from managers, or offering a reduced one to both sets of people, end the action even if it might mean fewer willing to do it? If so that would be a quick fix.

Perhaps. TMs are not demanding the same deal for them. Remove the payment to managers and make it worthwhile for working a rest day and this imo would resolve it.

 

[Krokodil]

This is a union scenting an opportunity having seen a government which appears all too willing to spend lots of public money to end disputes.

No, this was a democratic vote (with a considerable majority, not 52/48) by members who are utterly fed up with their management

 

[Starmill]

Don't the TMs have Sundays inside?

I don't think so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think so.

I believe it's committed Sundays but not Sundays inside.

 

[Harryn9000]

If the journeys you are planning are necessary then I'd go ahead and book available options ASAP as prices will of course rise with other operators. You will have peace of mind that you will be getting to your destination even if it means having to use slower services with changes.

The problem is I’m basically waiting on Avanti to see if get refunded or not as worst case scenario we are going in the car

 

[6Gman]

Just been on a Pendolino between Manchester and Crewe and the very helpful Avanti TM was sat watching TikTok on his phone for the entirety of the journey.

What do you feel he should have been doing?

(And presumably he wasn't watching TikTok during station calls?)

 

[47434]

Fair enough-I was just trying to think outside of the box. The rail industry is in crisis and can’t keep kicking real reform into the long grass forever

I do wonder if it is in crisis because quite simply, the Unions negotiate much better than Management. Certainly worth the subs members pay.

 

[dk1]

Why can’t some catering staff be trained to carry out a dual role in times of need?. TOC to Have an agreement with RMT along the lines of only used to cover a TM turn if the alternative is to cancel the train.

They can of course but they would need to apply and pass the interview like anybody else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What do you feel he should have been doing?

Patrolling the train, checking tickets, selling Standard Premium upgrades, telling people not to play rubbish out loud on their phones, having people move obstructive luggage, generally checking all is OK?

I don't think doomscrolling on his phone while on duty is a good look at all. Particularly if doing so out loud.

 

[Starmill]

I believe it's committed Sundays but not Sundays inside.

Yes. So it's a breach of contract, with the relevant claim of lawful protection for industrial action, but it still doesn't affect basic pay (except in the case of the couple of days where it's on a non-Sunday).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2024 ==

Why can’t some catering staff be trained to carry out a dual role in times of need?. TOC to Have an agreement with RMT along the lines of only used to cover a TM turn if the alternative is to cancel the train.

There's no specific impediment to this, Lumo's onboard hosts are safety critical and have revenue protection and catering duty. Train managers at LNER have catering duty in their contract too don't they? But realistically this isn't how Avanti have structured their workforce. The train managers could cover catering permanently but only some catering could cover train managers. A combined role would still be safety critical. It's not really a useful solution to any current problems, as much as long term it's not necessarily a bad idea.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Labour have allowed the TOCs (Avanti) to negotiate directly with the RMT. I suspect the DfT will now get more involved after yesterday's announcement. First group will have to justify why they are willing to pay £300 for a manager doing a TMs job but are not willing to incentives an actual TM to give up a valuable rest day. IMO if Avanti hadn't paid managers this premium this action would be a rest day work ban. Due to the already toxic relationship between managers and front line staff, this payment for managers is a real kick in the teeth and has resulted in this action.

The DfT have been involved with this from the start. FG won’t have to justify anything because the DfT are ones willing to pay £300 for a Avanti manager to do the job of a TM. Neither an owning group nor a TOC can make any offer on anything to any grade group unless the DfT have agreed it first because it is the DfT’s money that is ultimately paying for all this.

The Government allowing a TOC to negotiate is one thing but to make a formal offer is another. The DfT are still firmly in charge of the latter.

 

[ScottGallagher]

To think this used to be Virgin Trains (not perfect we know) but there was relative industrial peace for the 19 years they ran West Coast, totally poisoned now. We have this cherade until 2026 at least.

 

[Goldfish62]

To think this used to be Virgin Trains (not perfect we know) but there was relative industrial peace for the 19 years they ran West Coast, totally poisoned now. We have this cherade until 2026 at least.

Well yes, the initial contract expiry date is in October 2026, but the contract can still be terminated on the grounds of performance before then. That might be a bit difficult to justify however given Northern's ongoing performance.

 

[Facing Back]

There's no specific impediment to this, Lumo's onboard hosts are safety critical and have revenue protection and catering duty. Train managers at LNER have catering duty in their contract too don't they? But realistically this isn't how Avanti have structured their workforce. The train managers could cover catering permanently but only some catering could cover train managers. A combined role would still be safety critical. It's not really a useful solution to any current problems, as much as long term it's not necessarily a bad idea.

Can Lumo trains run if the steward is not available? If they are safety critical I assume not. I think I recall being on one of their services and being told there was no catering as there was steward aboard but it sounds like I was mistaken.

 

[Class83]

The DfT have been involved with this from the start. FG won’t have to justify anything because the DfT are ones willing to pay £300 for a Avanti manager to do the job of a TM. Neither an owning group nor a TOC can make any offer on anything to any grade group unless the DfT have agreed it first because it is the DfT’s money that is ultimately paying for all this.

The Government allowing a TOC to negotiate is one thing but to make a formal offer is another. The DfT are still firmly in charge of the latter.

How much are the guards being paid relative to this, the suggestion is that it's 1.25 times base for non contractual overtime.

The advertised job below says £52k, for a train manager, so given 52 weeks and (assuming) 35 hours working week that's £28.57/hour, at 1.25 time is £35.71, so for a 7 hour shift is £250. If it's an 8 hour shift it's £285. £15-50 doesn't seem an unbridgeable gap until a full recruitment drive is instigated to increase staff numbers by ~14% and the rota redone with Sundays as part of the 35 hours. Is this effectively the same rate if the managers higher base is considered, consultants get paid their normal rate to cover junior doctors?


*https://www.careers.avantiwestcoast...month-secondment?source=avantiwestcoast.co.uk << oddly for internal transfers only, if they're that short staffed they should be recruiting internally and externally.

 

[Watershed]

Can Lumo trains run if the steward is not available? If they are safety critical I assume not. I think I recall being on one of their services and being told there was no catering as there was steward aboard but it sounds like I was mistaken.

Lumo trains are rostered to have two members of customer facing staff (with whichever silly name they have this week). AIUI they can still run if one member of staff is absent, and could legally run without either as the train is DCO, but Lumo's policy is to always have at least one present.