Labour pledges to make Sunday trains as reliable as weekday services

[Class 170101]

Not for Intermodal there isn't.

You said they would go ECML, though I remain to be convinced there are many paths.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2025 ==

So for the majority of staff with Sundays inside the working week will no longer have to work them? Works for me!

In all seriousness, it’s likely that closing the railway on Sundays is going to be far less politically palatable than a relatively modest payment for bringing Sundays inside the week, or improving incentives under the current arrangements. Especially as Sundays are only an issue on certain parts of the network.

The problem is it won't be a modest payment in the macro-economic sense. For each individual driver currently employed yes it will be a modest payment but it will cost a lot of money for each new driver from the street to cover the extra drivers needed in the roster to bring Sundays inside the working week.

 

[Class83]

I do wonder, if this extra 20% was spent, how much would it actually cost after increased passenger numbers were taken into account.

Things which cost more:
Increase base to include Sunday overtime rates pro rata, so the rate for the standard 35-41 hours a week contract will be slightly higher as it is over 7 days rather than 6. Assuming staff work 5/7 Sundays (i.e. work on a Sunday as often as any other day), take overtime rate and spread it out (it's about 15%) so if Sunday rate is time and a half it would be a 7.5% increase in base.
Recruit enough staff to cover the full rota, assuming current rota is fully staffed (I know it isn't at most TOCs) this would be 15-16% extra staff depending on if Sunday service is equal to other days, assuming it's bit less so not quite 1/7th extra, so this is the main additional cost.

Things which 'cost' less
Reduced overtime costs as more shifts are covered by staff on regular work
Increased fare revenue from passengers using the railway on Sundays

 

[The Planner]

You said they would go ECML, though I remain to be convinced there are many paths.

They will, but the way you worded it suggested you were talking about the S&C

 

[Merle Haggard]

The Northampton Sunday service about once every six weeks is totally reliable and never affected by strikes; neither are the timetabled every weekend late Saturday and the first Up Sunday journeys.

That's because they're RRBs.

 

[manmikey]

Fewer services run on a Sunday, so it probably wouldn't be that much.

It won't make any difference if there are fewer services on a Sunday, the 14% of new train crew will be on the same 35 hour week (contract) as the existing staff.
Don't forget some of the new train crew will be covering mostly week day shifts as well as Sundays.

 

[The Planner]

The Northampton Sunday service about once every six weeks is totally reliable and never affected by strikes; neither are the timetabled every weekend late Saturday and the first Up Sunday journeys.

That's because they're RRBs.

That is the standard maintainence plan though

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It won't make any difference if there are fewer services on a Sunday, the 14% of new train crew will be on the same 35 hour week (contract) as the existing staff.

Yes but would you need 14% to bring Sunday's inside? If you're only running 70% of the services surely you only need 70% of the train crew (so about a 10% increase)?

 

[Class83]

Yes but would you need 14% to bring Sunday's inside? If you're only running 70% of the services surely you only need 70% of the train crew (so about a 10% increase)?

It's actually (current service/6)*7 so 16.7% extra staff for an equivalent service, 14-15% extra already assumes a slightly reduced service on Sunday, the actual difference will vary for intercity and commuter TOCs.

 

[Bikeman78]

Other than Cardiff Central - Radyr via Ninian Park what other stations in Wales has recently gained a Sunday service?

I think that Maesteg is a fairly recent addition to the Sunday timetable.

 

[Meerkat]

If Sundays are to be brought inside the ways that can be realistically achieved have been outlined and, whether you like it or not, the unions will need to be on board with them, and they will cost money. Your suggestions won’t actually achieve the objective in a timely manner, and would simply provoke another major industrial dispute. They also fairly obviously aren’t going to put on the table by the new government, so what is the point of discussing them?

Why is it obvious the new government isn't going to do that?
The are busily prepping the ground for an austerity budget, so paying huge amounts for Sunday working on a railway the majority dont rely on isn't going to fly.
'Disability benefits reduced to line their highly paid train driver union mates' pockets with gold' etc etc.
If they offer to pay the not inconsiderable bill for the extra staff (extra union members.....) for Sundays and the drivers unions threaten strikes over something that is optional for their members then its not going to look good - the government could pin the blame on the drivers for having to abandon the plan and cut Sunday services to what can be reliably delivered.

ps if its so costly to provide is there an argument that Sunday shouldn't remain as off peak?

 

[43066]

The problem is it won't be a modest payment in the macro-economic sense. For each individual driver currently employed yes it will be a modest payment but it will cost a lot of money for each new driver from the street to cover the extra drivers needed in the roster to bring Sundays inside the working week.

How much it would actually cost depends on how many staff you recruit. It’s likely that some overtime would still be needed to cover Sundays. At my depot (Sundays inside) two of thirteen jobs last Sunday were covered by rest day workers. It’s not unusual for as many as half to be covered in that way.

It would be possible to bring Sundays inside and keep headcount as is, but this would then lead to substantially more reliance on overtime on other days of the week.

The are busily prepping the ground for an austerity budget, so paying huge amounts for Sunday working on a railway the majority dont rely on isn't going to fly.
'Disability benefits reduced to line their highly paid train driver union mates' pockets with gold' etc etc.
If they offer to pay the not inconsiderable bill for the extra staff (extra union members.....) for Sundays and the drivers unions threaten strikes over something that is optional for their members then its not going to look good - the government could pin the blame on the drivers for having to abandon the plan and cut Sunday services to what can be reliably delivered.

Because, having just spent money resolving one industrial dispute, they’re hardly likely to deliberately provoke another one. They’re far more likely to leave things as they are. Surely that’s obvious?

Saying “it isn’t going to fly” is also merely a statement of your own view. You would clearly like to see another fight with the unions; I’d suggest most railway passengers would rather see a more reliable railway.

 

[12LDA28C]

Yes but would you need 14% to bring Sunday's inside? If you're only running 70% of the services surely you only need 70% of the train crew (so about a 10% increase)?

But you’re not employing more traincrew just to cover Sunday work. All the drivers working their Sunday as part of their working week are now having an additional day off in the week, and it’s that work that needs to be covered.

 

[Mag_seven]

We have discussed this topic to death in this and other threads so it's now a case of waiting to see what actually happens.When something actually happens we will no doubt start a new thread.