Labour pledges to make Sunday trains as reliable as weekday services

[winks]

So that relies on DfT and crucially the Treasury of stumping up the 15-20% extra pay to train crew for those where Sundays is either outside the working week or committed + an increase in drivers. Would be beneficial if it happened, but I'm not expecting anything any time soon.

Or when employing new members of staff the contract states that Sundays are part of the working week. It’s probably the only way of doing it surely cheaper?

 

[Horizon22]

Or when employing new members of staff the contract states that Sundays are part of the working week. It’s probably the only way of doing it surely cheaper?

Yes, but much much slower to achieve; certainly beyond the length of this government! GWR have been going down this route for some years and are still often decimated on Sundays.

 

[TomG]

In fairness to Labour when they said 'As reliable as Weekdays' they didn't say what type of Reliable and what they are comparing it to.

I mean if they are aiming to make services match the reliability as Northern and Avanti's weekday services then I suppose that target is achievable!

 

[Deepgreen]

The decisions starmer is making right now are costing me as middle of the road earner more than Boris ever did. I have plenty more to say on this, but this is not the thread at all.

Agreed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2025 ==

I'm amazed that nobody seems to have made the obvious comment yet.

Labour propose to make Sunday services as reliable as every other day.

Labour might actually achieve that - by making services on every other day less reliable!

They actually said "Mondays" - so, as I said, if engineering works were to be spread between Sundays and Mondays...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks for the insight. I'm no expert on UK rail maintenance, but lines like the WCML surely allow for bidirectional running to do "under rolling wheels" maintenance?
In Switzerland usually only one track gets closed or maintenance windows are very short. For big refurbishments there are sometimes full closures, but usually only if alternative routes are available.
For me it is just odd that one of the busiest main lines in europe closes for an entire Saturday morning every week.

The northern WCML (Warrington-Glasgow) was last resignalled around 1974 and it doesn't have bi-directional signalling.
Parts of the northern ECML (resignalled around 1990) do have limited bi-di capability (SIMBIDS), but its not as efficient as in CH/FR/DE etc.
There are plans to resignal the northern WCML with ETCS, which would solve the problem, but it's a decade away, realistically.
Network Rail also have restrictive rules about using one track while the other is operational.
This is said to partly down to the closer separation of tracks in the UK.

 

[Meerkat]

Obviously they would need to be a pay rise to reflect a change to Ts and Cs,

They don’t have to.
Just create a new template GBR contract/T&Cs* for new starters, maybe offer a one off bonus to transfer to it if the individual doesn’t go on strike over the issue, maybe throw in some sweeties for those on the new contracts.
Basically play hardball - challenge the union to go on strike against something that will be pretty popular with the public, if they can get members to go on strike for something that doesn’t affect them.

*and do it whilst the TOCs are still separate (divide and rule….)

 

[43066]

Basically play hardball - challenge the union to go on strike against something that will be pretty popular with the public, if they can get members to go on strike for something that doesn’t affect them.

Because that approach has worked so well for the last two years.

The more mature approach is to negotiate (and pay) for bringing Sundays inside, offered to new joiners and existing staff members, or increase the incentives.

 

[class ep-09]

They don’t have to.
Just create a new template GBR contract/T&Cs* for new starters, maybe offer a one off bonus to transfer to it if the individual doesn’t go on strike over the issue, maybe throw in some sweeties for those on the new contracts.
Basically play hardball - challenge the union to go on strike against something that will be pretty popular with the public, if they can get members to go on strike for something that doesn’t affect them.

*and do it whilst the TOCs are still separate (divide and rule….)

LOL…
Even if new entrants have different contract than existing staff - how long will it take for new starters to replace “old crew”.
In addition to that - forget about ANY Sundays being worked by old staff from now till they all retire.

 

[philthetube]

So that relies on DfT and crucially the Treasury of stumping up the 15-20% extra pay to train crew for those where Sundays is either outside the working week or committed + an increase in drivers. Would be beneficial if it happened, but I'm not expecting anything any time soon.

I do wonder, if this extra 20% was spent, how much would it actually cost after increased passenger numbers were taken into account.

 

[Meerkat]

The more mature approach is to negotiate (and pay) for bringing Sundays inside, offered to new joiners and existing staff members, or increase the incentives.

Why is that more mature, as it would mean asking the taxpayer to pay even more? It’s pretty normal in the wider world for new starters to have different T&Cs.

Even if new entrants have different contract than existing staff - how long will it take for new starters to replace “old crew”.
In addition to that - forget about ANY Sundays being worked by old staff from now till they all retire.

Depends how tasty the one off bonus and sweeties are.
I would think the bigger threat would be a refusal to train new starters??

 

[43066]

LOL…
Even if new entrants have different contract than existing staff - how long will it take for new starters to replace “old crew”.
In addition to that - forget about ANY Sundays being worked by old staff from now till they all retire.

Indeed. Offering only to new joiners is a non starter and would take far too long to be worth doing. Offer to existing staff too and you’ll get a long way towards solving the problem immediately, as a majority will want to bring them in. It’s exactly what happened at my operator.

Why is that more mature, as it would mean asking the taxpayer to pay even more? It’s pretty normal in the wider world for new starters to have different T&Cs.

Because this “let’s break the unions” attitude will only succeed in knackering the service, potentially for years on end. Have you learned nothing from the last few years?

The mature, sensible approach is to find a way to improve the service that works for all parties, rather than knackering it for political reasons. And yes, bringing Sundays inside absolutely will cost the taxpayer more. If that isn’t possible/desirable, best just to leave as is. What happens in other industries simply isn’t relevant.

 

[Class 170101]

An issue with the WCML North is that it is used continuously from Sunday morning to Saturday night, therefore Saturday nightshift provides the only gap for maintenance.

But with the exception of Carlisle to Gretna Jn and at Preston station there is an alternative route close to the WCML.

Most double-track routes, even main lines, in GB do NOT have bi-directional signalling.

Not relevant in respect of most engineering work as Health and Safety rules prevents closing one line and leaving the other open to traffic. However of course Bi-Directional running helps in times of pertubation as its all signalled rather than requiring staff to implement Single Line Working.

 

[Meerkat]

Because this “let’s break the unions” attitude will only succeed in knackering the service, potentially for years on end. Have you learned nothing from the last few years?

The mature, sensible approach is to find a way to improve the service that works for all parties, rather than knackering it for political reasons. And yes, bringing Sundays inside absolutely will cost the taxpayer more. If that isn’t possible/desirable, best just to leave as is. What happens in other industries simply isn’t relevant.

And letting the unions run the railway leads to ever increasing costs - how is that working for all parties?
It will already increase costs by needing more staff, so doing that and paying all of them more will be unaffordable to the iron chancellor, and politically damaging in a reality of upcoming budget cuts.
New contract for new starters (and there will be a load of them as more staff will be needed) and a bonus if current staff want to get involved. Current staff don’t lose out.

 

[The Planner]

But with the exception of Carlisle to Gretna Jn and at Preston station there is an alternative route close to the WCML.

Not for Intermodal there isn't.

 

[43066]

And letting the unions run the railway leads to ever increasing costs - how is that working for all parties?
It will already increase costs by needing more staff, so doing that and paying all of them more will be unaffordable to the iron chancellor, and politically damaging in a reality of upcoming budget cuts.
New contract for new starters (and there will be a load of them as more staff will be needed) and a bonus if current staff want to get involved. Current staff don’t lose out.

If Sundays are to be brought inside the ways that can be realistically achieved have been outlined and, whether you like it or not, the unions will need to be on board with them, and they will cost money. Your suggestions won’t actually achieve the objective in a timely manner, and would simply provoke another major industrial dispute. They also fairly obviously aren’t going to put on the table by the new government, so what is the point of discussing them?

 

[Red Rover]

The status quo of Sundays as they are has been adequate for the unions and management for years, for some working a 4 day week having an opportunity to earn a large amount on a Sunday is worthwhile and it means the union doesn’t have to tackle the rough situation of bringing it into the working week, their members have their cake and eat it, what they don’t want to confront is this means some staff have Sundays into their contract but outside of the working week they’re being forced to come and sometimes on a flat rate.
So you’re having a situation of staff having to work 6/7 days a week for 2/3 weeks, seem good and fair?
People got more time off 100 years ago with a half day and Sunday off, that’s not progress, that’s a stain.
The railway needs to be brought into the 21st century, Sundays should be within the working week and that’s all there is to it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2025 ==

“Letting the unions run the railway” sums up your position; you’re more interested in picking fights with unions than actually finding a solution.

If Sundays are to be brought inside the ways that can be realistically achieved have been outlined and, whether you like it or not, the unions will need to be on board with them, and they will cost money. Your suggestions won’t actually achieve the objective in a timely manner, and would simply provoke another major industrial dispute. They also fairly obviously aren’t going to put on the table by the new government, so what is the point of discussing them?

Unless the government is about to flex it’s majority and now under their control take on the railway?
Under BR it was like that?
The drivers I’d imagine would be reluctant to be out for too long as they’d lose so much money on the picket.

 

[mike57]

costing me as middle of the road earner

Agreed, but that is a wider problem, and not for here

Labour might actually achieve that - by making services on every other day less reliable!

To be honest it all sounds like typical politician speak.

The main problem is that the passenger railway is a 7 day a week undertaking, and the contracted working week isn't. Until you sort that out you will not make any progress.

You really have two options:

A head on clash with the railway unions, and a long period of serious unrest, and an eventual victory for the goverment, probably with a reduced network/service at the end of it. Not a good outcome.
Buy off the railway unions to agree to changes. Politically would be a huge gamble, even with a large commons majority. Tax rises to pay for railway workers wage increase, Pensioners freeze whilst railworkers get biggest pay day ever. You can see the headlines now. In this situation I think there would even be dissent within the Labour ranks.

Neither of these options are particularly palatable, but I dont see a third way. If I were a politician dealing with this I would try and kick the can down the road, because I would see that whatever I did wasn't going to be popular or solve the problem

I am going to throw a curved ball in, and it is just to try and gauge where we are, not nessecarily an idea I support...

Stop running trains on a Sunday. Union response??? Public response, well it would no worse than the periods of dispute that we have endured for the last 5-10 years. Unions say 'But our members like working Sundays (because of the overtime)' Response, Sunday isnt part of the working week, do you want to talk about it? Please note I am being a bit facetious.

 

[43066]

Buy off the railway unions to agree to changes. Politically would be a huge gamble, even with a large commons majority. Tax rises to pay for railway workers wage increase, Pensioners freeze whilst railworkers get biggest pay day ever. You can see the headlines now. In this situation I think there would even be dissent within the Labour ranks.

“Buying off the unions” is a loaded way of describing the situation, when it’s the choice of certain train operators that the “status quo” of Sundays outside still exists (you could better argue that the operators have been “bought off”, to the detriment of the travelling public, by being allowed to retain these arrangements for years). It’s also entirely possible that the net cost to the taxpayer of doing these deals would be zero, or perhaps even a net saving, due to the increased revenue from more reliable Sunday services.

The obvious third option you haven’t mentioned is leaving things as they are, but improving incentives to encourage volunteers. If done properly you could generate enough volunteers to ensure a robust service, and it would still be cheaper than bringing Sundays inside contracts. I actually suspect this option is what we will end up with, as it delivers a quick win for relatively low cost.

Stop running trains on a Sunday. Union response??? Public response, well it would no worse than the periods of dispute that we have endured for the last 5-10 years. Unions say 'But our members like working Sundays (because of the overtime)' Response, Sunday isnt part of the working week, do you want to talk about it? Please note I am being a bit facetious.

So for the majority of staff with Sundays inside the working week will no longer have to work them? Works for me!

In all seriousness, it’s likely that closing the railway on Sundays is going to be far less politically palatable than a relatively modest payment for bringing Sundays inside the week, or improving incentives under the current arrangements. Especially as Sundays are only an issue on certain parts of the network.

 

[Falcon1200]

The more mature approach is to negotiate (and pay) for bringing Sundays inside, offered to new joiners and existing staff members, or increase the incentives.

Perhaps the new Government could have used the Drivers' pay deal as an opportunity to force all sides - Themselves, employers and Unions - to make a binding commitment to resolve the issue, once and for all?

But with the exception of Carlisle to Gretna Jn and at Preston station there is an alternative route close to the WCML.

Not realistically, at all, in terms of journey time and staffing arrangements, on trains and at signalboxes.

Back in the 1980s I took a Sunday Glasgow-Euston train diverted via both Kilmarnock/Dumfries and the Settle & Carlisle - It took 6 (six) hours to get to Preston!

 

[mike57]

but improving incentives to encourage volunteers.

I agree that this may work, but I can see the press getting hold of it and it being touted as 'buying off' with similar headlines.

Thinking further about it, there is another possible option, cut the Sunday service to the level that can be supported by the current level of volunteers, the problem is I can see that level of volunteeers changes depending upon external circumstances.

From a personal point of view I believe that driving a train is a 'professional' role, its safety critical and requires a high level of training(pun alert...) and should be rewarded and treated as such, moving it away from the 'trench warfare' industrial relations which seem to have been the norm for some years. How you change the mindset I dont know, as in any situation neither side is blamless, or fully to blame.

 

[Harpo]

“Buying off the unions” is a loaded way of describing the situation,

Expect to see it splashed across the Sun/Mail/Telegraph/Express and other staunchly anti-Labour media.

The obvious third option you haven’t mentioned is leaving things as they are, but improving incentives to encourage volunteers. If done properly you could generate enough volunteers to ensure a robust service, and it would still be cheaper than bringing Sundays inside contracts. I actually suspect this option is what we will end up with, as it delivers a quick win for relatively low cost.

Back where we are. A warm BBQ Sunday or a sniff of English football success and the deck of cards collapses again.

 

[Red Rover]

So it’s either grind out strikes for a year or so until the drivers relent to a working week or give them and guards on some toc’s a kings ransom and thereby dividing the staff who aren’t so lucky, great isn’t it?

 

[43066]

Perhaps the new Government could have used the Drivers' pay deal as an opportunity to force all sides - Themselves, employers and Unions - to make a binding commitment to resolve the issue, once and for all?

I think industrial relations had reached such a point that that would have been difficult. Plus it wouldn’t remove the bigger issue; namely that they don’t want to pay for the increased headcount.

There’s no reason the issue can’t be resolved, though, along the lines of what described above or as happened in Wales where Sundays were brought inside.

Expect to see it splashed across the Sun/Mail/Telegraph/Express and other staunchly anti-Labour media

I doubt it - it’s nothing like as high profile as the main industrial dispute. And so what? Most people don’t actually want to the service to collapse on Sundays. We’re also early into the new parliament and once the changes are made the service will rapidly improve. It’ll be ancient history by the next election.

Back where we are. A warm BBQ Sunday or a sniff of English football success and the deck of cards collapses again.

Part of the issue has been the derisory amounts the TOCs have been allowed to offer Sunday volunteers; Northern offered guards something like £100 to work Xmas eve and New Year’s Eve in 2023 and ended up having to issue “do not travel” notices. That was a farcical and entirely predictable situation that could easily have been avoided if they’d planned ahead and offered them £4-500 for a shift (or whatever amount).

If sensible incentives are offered, you shouldn’t have a problem. You could also get away with less than this on less popular days, and just offer additional incentives on days when cover is difficult to find.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of the issue has been the derisory amounts the TOCs have been allowed to offer Sunday volunteers; Northern offered guards something like £100 to work Xmas eve and New Year’s Eve in 2023 and ended up having to issue “do not travel” notices. That was a farcical and entirely predictable situation that could easily have been avoided if they’d planned ahead and offered them £4-500 for a shift (or whatever amount).

If sensible incentives are offered, you shouldn’t have a problem. You could also get away with less than this on less popular days, and just offer additional incentives on days when cover is difficult to find.

Surprised they didn't "auction" it for those special days, i.e. keep increasing the amount until they got enough volunteers. Obviously everyone would receive the highest amount offered. A bit like is sometimes done when they are needing to "bump" people off a flight. I guess DfT put their ever-helpful oar in.

 

[officewalla]

This in place at certain places, for example GWR. But as you say it is incredibly slow to await retirees and reach a tipping point of more people within the working week than without.

Sunday working is not mandatory on GWR. It is committed Sundays which is not the same thing.

 

[RT4038]

Surprised they didn't "auction" it for those special days, i.e. keep increasing the amount until they got enough volunteers.

So if the staff collude a little they should be able to get it up to £5k a shift

Obviously everyone would receive the highest amount offered.

Well obviously.... To cover the last shift they had to pay £10k, so automatically all those happy to work for £5k would be doubled to £10k as a
matter of principle. There is no stopping the money machine - keep pouring it in!

A bit like is sometimes done when they are needing to "bump" people off a flight.

I don't think it quite works like that!

I guess DfT put their ever-helpful oar in.

I wonder why?

 

[43066]

Surprised they didn't "auction" it for those special days, i.e. keep increasing the amount until they got enough volunteers. Obviously everyone would receive the highest amount offered. A bit like is sometimes done when they are needing to "bump" people off a flight. I guess DfT put their ever-helpful oar in.

That’s exactly what I would envisage, yes. A little like how Network Rail (and TfL) operate services over Christmas. And yes, prevented by the DfT in this case.

Open access and freight also deal with overtime like this because it makes commercial sense and they’re free to do so without interference (admittedly they’re mostly Sundays inside).

To cover the last shift they had to pay £10k, so automatically all those happy to work for £5k would be doubled to £10k as a
matter of principle. There is no stopping the money machine - keep pouring it in!

£10k clearly won’t be necessary for staff on a basic salary of £30-40k as many guards are but, whatever the number, the principle of incentivising staff to do overtime is exactly how many businesses operate, including freight and open access on the railway. Why? Because reliance on overtime is still cheaper than increasing headcount, even with incentives. That’s simple commercial reality!

What you don’t do is set the business up with a staffing model that relies on overtime to save money, but then also refuse to provide incentives, so that the service you’re meant to provide collapses. Yet that’s exactly how parts of the railway are being run at the moment.

I wonder why?

As do I. What they achieved in that case was the service collapsing, losing them revenue, and no doubt costing a great deal in delay repay, while many other staff were paid to sit idle because the trains couldn’t be operated. That doesn’t sound like a sensible use of taxpayers’ money to me.

 

[Carlisle]

In addition to that - forget about ANY Sundays being worked by old staff from now till they all retire.

If true it’d make sense for the industry to offer these employees the option of going part time for the last bit of their working life like many other companies do .

 

[manmikey]

There are many differing opinions and arguments over finer points on this debate but the only thing that will make Sunday service as reliable as then other days is to make sundays part of the working week, to do this you need to employ one days worth of extra train crew, around 14% more. That costs a lot of money that this government won't want to pay for, so as far as I can see it's not going to happen.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There are many differing opinions and arguments over finer points on this debate but the only thing that will make Sunday service as reliable as then other days is to make sundays part of the working week, to do this you need to employ one days worth of extra train crew, around 14% more. That costs a lot of money that this government won't want to pay for, so as far as I can see it's not going to happen.

Fewer services run on a Sunday, so it probably wouldn't be that much.