UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Bletchleyite]

On-street charging will reduce the number of parking spaces available as they are only for use while charging. Just sticking charging bays in without reviewing the underlying structure of on-street parking in an area will just cause the sort of disruption thar GBNews will love.

Depends how you do it. If you do lamp post chargers (slow charging) there's one for every space.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2025 ==

The big problem for me with cycling isn't the weather, or even the fear of falling off/being in a collision, but rather the fear of having the bike stolen or damaged (far more to damage/nick with an e-bike too). That's a factor in my decision to cycle or use a car (or another form of transport, or maybe even just walking).

I agree with this. The UK sorely needs "bewaakte Fietsenstallingen" - staffed bike storage - as standard at major locations like stations and shopping centres, and I'd happily pay a small sum to use such a facility.

 

[trebor79]

This explained by the relevant website is. In the case of Just Park:

JustPark

Find parking, wherever and whenever you need it, online or via the JustPark app. Reserve a space at over 45,000 locations. Trusted by 10 million drivers.

www.justpark.com

There was one other company that I've heard about (I can't for the life of me remember what it's called, though). You book your parking and pay online, then the owner of the parking space is paid by the company. If you need your charger at a certain time, you simply don't make it available to book.

Edit: Joosup was the other service I'd seen featured, but Co Charger is another that came up when searching.

Yeah, but if someone is off on a week's holiday I'm not going to let them use my charger because I won't be able to use it myself until they get back. And they aren't going to want to leave their car keys with me.

 

[cactustwirly]

Once again the on street charging discussion ignores the fact that a lot of people don't have to charge at home. They can charge at work, at the supermarket during the weekly shop, whilst parked up at a multistory when they have gone somewhere etc. Sure that's not going to be for everyone, but that's the thing with EV charging - you don't need one solution for everyone, you can mix and match.

I live by a massive Sainsbury's
There are 10 chargers in a 500 space car park. And they're not switched on

My workplace doesn't have any sort of charging.

Public chargers charge an obscene amount so it's not worth having an EV

 

[GusB]

Yeah, but if someone is off on a week's holiday I'm not going to let them use my charger because I won't be able to use it myself until they get back. And they aren't going to want to leave their car keys with me.

They're not going to book your charger if there's insufficient availability, are they?

You choose when you want make your charger available and others will only be able to use it during those times.

 

[The Ham]

So a resident could charge a guests car at a favourable rate (if there is a favourable rate).

Why would doing that be an issue? If it required an app it would have to be via their account, so their guest would either be paying them or the sort of guest you'd gift it to them, in which case if your maintenance costs were a bit bigger as that guest hadn't paid an extra few quid it's hardly going to impact them.

I live by a massive Sainsbury's
There are 10 chargers in a 500 space car park. And they're not switched on

My workplace doesn't have any sort of charging.

Public chargers charge an obscene amount so it's not worth having an EV

That Sainsbury's will likely be able to turn them on if they felt that it was worth their while (even if it was a charged for system), however many supermarkets have a time limit on parking, so that would limit the charge available anyway.

In time workplaces which don't offer charging (even if that's a paid for thing) are likely to find that it's harder to recruit (as will landlords without charging find it harder to get tenants).

Also whilst 40% of homes have no off-street parking, that's not going to be 40% of cars which will need to be charged by such locations.

That's because places with no off-street parking tend to have lower car ownership rates (with far fewer 2+ car households and more no car households).

If you've got a street with off-street parking where it averages at 1.2 cars per household, and a street with no off-street parking which averages 0.5 cars per household. Even at a 50:50 split on hosting numbers the cars from the road with off-street parking would be 70% of cars. Make the split 60:40 and that would rise to 78%, leaving just 22% of all cars needing to charge elsewhere.

The real world numbers could be a bit different from that (and it's hard to find data on this), however it's ikely to be between 30% and 20% of all cars.

 

[E27007]

I attach a H&S report for the ZEV fire of December 2023 at a car dealership workshop in Swindon.

The ZEV was at the dealership for investigation into a battery fault light.
ZEV protocols were adhered to, the vehicle stored externally in quarantine for seven days as per repair protocol before work commenced.
The battery pack had been removed and isolated and was in position beneath the car for three weeks, the combustion incident occurred during the night, CCTV recorded powerful electrical discharges "lightning discharges" and the combustion of a battery in a state of thermal runaway.
A hypothesis is the stress and strain "mechanical flexing" of removing the battery pack from the vehicle may have triggered the eventual combustion of the defective battery pack

 

[cactustwirly]

Why would doing that be an issue? If it required an app it would have to be via their account, so their guest would either be paying them or the sort of guest you'd gift it to them, in which case if your maintenance costs were a bit bigger as that guest hadn't paid an extra few quid it's hardly going to impact them.



That Sainsbury's will likely be able to turn them on if they felt that it was worth their while (even if it was a charged for system), however many supermarkets have a time limit on parking, so that would limit the charge available anyway.

In time workplaces which don't offer charging (even if that's a paid for thing) are likely to find that it's harder to recruit (as will landlords without charging find it harder to get tenants).

Also whilst 40% of homes have no off-street parking, that's not going to be 40% of cars which will need to be charged by such locations.

That's because places with no off-street parking tend to have lower car ownership rates (with far fewer 2+ car households and more no car households).

If you've got a street with off-street parking where it averages at 1.2 cars per household, and a street with no off-street parking which averages 0.5 cars per household. Even at a 50:50 split on hosting numbers the cars from the road with off-street parking would be 70% of cars. Make the split 60:40 and that would rise to 78%, leaving just 22% of all cars needing to charge elsewhere.

The real world numbers could be a bit different from that (and it's hard to find data on this), however it's ikely to be between 30% and 20% of all cars.

I have off street parking and it's not easy to install a charger.
My neighbours would have to run cables under my land, causing me inconvenience by having to dig up my parking space and also gain permission from the original developer as there is a restrictive covenant in place for laying cabling. It woud be very expensive to install any charger

 

[Harpo]

ZEV protocols were adhered to, the vehicle stored externally in quarantine for seven days as per repair protocol before work commenced.

That’s not going to be a straight £100 general investigation charge in future!

 

[Peter Sarf]

I attach a H&S report for the ZEV fire of December 2023 at a car dealership workshop in Swindon.

The ZEV was at the dealership for investigation into a battery fault light.
ZEV protocols were adhered to, the vehicle stored externally in quarantine for seven days as per repair protocol before work commenced.
The battery pack had been removed and isolated and was in position beneath the car for three weeks, the combustion incident occurred during the night, CCTV recorded powerful electrical discharges "lightning discharges" and the combustion of a battery in a state of thermal runaway.
A hypothesis is the stress and strain "mechanical flexing" of removing the battery pack from the vehicle may have triggered the eventual combustion of the defective battery pack

Does this mean that if one was to ground the car (as in have a bump/hump hit the underside) it could compromise the safety of the battery pack ?.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Interesting development.

GAC and Toyota develop ammonia engine for 90% CO2 reduction | Autocar

Four-cylinder engine is the first ammonia-fuelled engine for passenger cars; could be a hydrogen alternative

www.autocar.co.uk

GAC and Toyota develop ammonia engine for 90% CO2 reduction​

 

[Mawkie]

GAC and Toyota develop ammonia engine for 90% CO2 reduction

Poor old Toyota - always searching for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I wonder how much they wasted on developing hydrogen vehicles?

 

[GusB]

I attach a H&S report for the ZEV fire of December 2023 at a car dealership workshop in Swindon.

The ZEV was at the dealership for investigation into a battery fault light.
ZEV protocols were adhered to, the vehicle stored externally in quarantine for seven days as per repair protocol before work commenced.
The battery pack had been removed and isolated and was in position beneath the car for three weeks, the combustion incident occurred during the night, CCTV recorded powerful electrical discharges "lightning discharges" and the combustion of a battery in a state of thermal runaway.
A hypothesis is the stress and strain "mechanical flexing" of removing the battery pack from the vehicle may have triggered the eventual combustion of the defective battery pack

What's the point that you're trying to make here? A fire in one electric vehicle is not representative of all EVs, surely. Also, vehicle fires are not limited to EVs either - I could find a few examples of combustable diesel vehicles in this forum alone!

I have off street parking and it's not easy to install a charger.
My neighbours would have to run cables under my land, causing me inconvenience by having to dig up my parking space and also gain permission from the original developer as there is a restrictive covenant in place for laying cabling. It woud be very expensive to install any charger

Again, this isn't necessarily a barrier to adopting EVs. Not every property will be suitable for EV chargers and most of the proponents of EVs here will happily acknowledge that fact. There are other solutions to charging, public chargers at certain destinations, on-street lamp-post charging and "community" charging where you can rent someone else's driveway for a certain period of time; the latter situation was discussed in this thread not too long ago.

Interesting development.

GAC and Toyota develop ammonia engine for 90% CO2 reduction | Autocar

Four-cylinder engine is the first ammonia-fuelled engine for passenger cars; could be a hydrogen alternative

www.autocar.co.uk

GAC and Toyota develop ammonia engine for 90% CO2 reduction​

That's not EV technology, so I'm unsure why it's relevant to this thread.

 

[Sun Chariot]

That's not EV technology, so I'm unsure why it's relevant to this thread.

I see it as complementing, not instead of, the EV proposition.
It potentially delivers an alternative option, for those who - in this thread - stated their use-cases aren't met through "as is" EVs. Those folk who - to answer this thread's title - say: "No".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2025 ==

Poor old Toyota - always searching for a solution to I wonder how much they wasted on developing hydrogen vehicles?

I recall BMW's Hydrogen7 car and London's hydrogen buses fleet of 15-20 years ago; Toyota's effort was not in isolation.

 

[HSTEd]

Interesting development.

GAC and Toyota develop ammonia engine for 90% CO2 reduction | Autocar

Four-cylinder engine is the first ammonia-fuelled engine for passenger cars; could be a hydrogen alternative

www.autocar.co.uk

GAC and Toyota develop ammonia engine for 90% CO2 reduction​

Are Toyota deliberately chosing awful technologies over and over and over?

Ammonia is a terrible fuel.

 

[AM9]

Are Toyota deliberately chosing awful technologies over and over and over?

Ammonia is a terrible fuel.

It seems that they are going out of their way to avoid battwery dependence, maybe they can't get a good deal from a major supplier.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Are Toyota deliberately chosing awful technologies over and over and over?

Wait for the time their ammonia fuelled vehicles also include a 1970s perm.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==


Even for a 10 year old car - regardless whether an EV or ICE - that Nissan Leaf seems a "dog" and poor value for £1500

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Depends how you do it. If you do lamp post chargers (slow charging) there's one for every space.

There isn't though- how closely spaced are the lamp posts where you live? If they're close enough for every car to park in front of one it must be like living on the Blackpool promenade during the illuminations!
On my street, the closest parking space to my building is not even adjacent to the building, it's about five metres beyond. The bit of road directly in front of the building has double yellows. There are only ten lamp posts (five either side) on the entire street, two of which are in the area where no parking is allowed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2025 ==

Once again the on street charging discussion ignores the fact that a lot of people don't have to charge at home. They can charge at work, at the supermarket during the weekly shop, whilst parked up at a multistory when they have gone somewhere etc. Sure that's not going to be for everyone, but that's the thing with EV charging - you don't need one solution for everyone, you can mix and match.

You're right, not everyone will "need" to charge at home... However if you remove the ability to do so from a person's use case, the money-saving aspect of switching no longer applies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There isn't though- how closely spaced are the lamp posts where you live? If they're close enough for every car to park in front of one it must be like living on the Blackpool promenade during the illuminations!

Your car has a charging cable, which means you don't have to park right next to one. Trailing them across the pavement is a hazard, but in the gutter much less so, and gutters can be designed so it isn't at all.

 

[tomuk]

Your car has a charging cable, which means you don't have to park right next to one. Trailing them across the pavement is a hazard, but in the gutter much less so, and gutters can be designed so it isn't at all.

Well in my street there are now less lampposts, they are further apart and moved away from the edge of the kerb after the council replaced the existing lighting with new led luminaries on top of aluminium posts twice the height of the original steel lampposts. This has been repeated throughout the 1930s era housing in the area. There is probably one lamppost for every 10-15 houses.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....the money-saving aspect of switching no longer applies.

ONE (of several) such aspects may not apply. But there are many other costs associated with motoring, not refuelling related, that may have an impact. Substantially reduced service and/or maintenance costs are highly likely. Brakes - something like 4x the lifespan; never, not ever, needing a new exhaust; no clutch to wear, simple reduction gearbox which (in some marques) never need an oil change and more general matters related to massively simpler mechanics. My 5-year service just cost £130 at a main dealer, including MOT and new wiper blades and another 12 months roadside/at home recovery service (of itself worth, what, £70 ish?). And bottom tier road tax despite typically good performance.

 

[Peter Sarf]

ONE (of several) such aspects may not apply. But there are many other costs associated with motoring, not refuelling related, that may have an impact. Substantially reduced service and/or maintenance costs are highly likely. Brakes - something like 4x the lifespan; never, not ever, needing a new exhaust; no clutch to wear, simple reduction gearbox which (in some marques) never need an oil change and more general matters related to massively simpler mechanics. My 5-year service just cost £130 at a main dealer, including MOT and new wiper blades and another 12 months roadside/at home recovery service (of itself worth, what, £70 ish?). And bottom tier road tax despite typically good performance.

Cheap road tax for EVs will inevitably not last. One there are so many EVs than a tax of some sort will have to arise. It is a whole separate debate, either road tax or possibly road pricing or possibly both - remember the not insignificant tax income from ICE fuel will also have to be replaced. A possibility is road pricing but also road tax - possibly less for EVs BUT not much less - should I say higher for ICEs.

 

[dcbwhaley]

ONE (of several) such aspects may not apply. But there are many other costs associated with motoring, not refuelling related, that may have an impact. Substantially reduced service and/or maintenance costs are highly likely. Brakes - something like 4x the lifespan; never, not ever, needing a new exhaust; no clutch to wear, simple reduction gearbox which (in some marques) never need an oil change and more general matters related to massively simpler mechanics. My 5-year service just cost £130 at a main dealer, including MOT and new wiper blades and another 12 months roadside/at home recovery service (of itself worth, what, £70 ish?). And bottom tier road tax despite typically good performance.

Servicing my 2o10 ICE cost £230. Saving £100 on servicing isn't enough to convince me to spend £20K on an EV.
The only mechanical issue over 2 years is a broken spring: something as likely on the heavier EV given the state of the roads.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Servicing my 2o10 ICE cost £230. Saving £100 on servicing isn't enough to convince me to spend £20K on an EV.
The only mechanical issue over 2 years is a broken spring: something as likely on the heavier EV given the state of the roads.

Same for me. Generally my ICE servicing is not too bad (doing a low mileage). So the difference is not significant enough to let me withstand the higher purchase cost (but that might well improve).

 

[Harpers Tate]

Servicing my 2o10 ICE cost £230. Saving £100 on servicing isn't enough to convince me to spend £20K on an EV.
The only mechanical issue over 2 years is a broken spring: something as likely on the heavier EV given the state of the roads.

By saying this, I'm not trying to convince. But I must restate: my £130 included an MOT (£40) and a years recovery (£70) so one might say, net, the actual work on the car was about £20, including wiper blades required for an MOT pass.

 

[johncrossley]

the actual work on the car was about £20, including wiper blades required for an MOT pass.

Do electric cars use the same wiper blades as ICE cars, and so can be replaced in the same way by the owner?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do electric cars use the same wiper blades as ICE cars

Yes.

and so can be replaced in the same way by the owner?

Yes. But if it's picked up at MoT time (you really should change them when they become ineffective, not wait for once a year!) it is a lot more faff to have to collect the car, take it home, replace the blades and arrange another MoT to correct the fail than it is to just pay the inflated rate, even if they offer free retests. Though retired people with more time than money may indeed choose this option.

 

[johncrossley]

Yes. But if it's picked up at MoT time (you really should change them when they become ineffective, not wait for once a year!) it is a lot more faff to have to collect the car, take it home, replace the blades and arrange another MoT to correct the fail than it is to just pay the inflated rate, even if they offer free retests. Though retired people with more time than money may indeed choose this option.

I've never had wipers mentioned in the MOT so presumed it would be almost impossible to be picked up by the inspection, because by that point your wipers would be so worn that they would be unusable and therefore they would have to be replaced before the MOT. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to drive in the rain.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've never had wipers mentioned in the MOT so presumed it would be almost impossible to be picked up by the inspection, because by that point your wipers would be so worn that they would be unusable and therefore they would have to be replaced before the MOT. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to drive in the rain.

I've had it once because of a quirk of how I drive - I passed my test then drove nothing but the Uni Union minibus for a couple of years, as a result of which I make heavy use of side mirrors and very little of the back window. It had perished rather than worn. I now check it more often.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Yes.



Yes. But if it's picked up at MoT time (you really should change them when they become ineffective, not wait for once a year!) it is a lot more faff to have to collect the car, take it home, replace the blades and arrange another MoT to correct the fail than it is to just pay the inflated rate, even if they offer free retests. Though retired people with more time than money may indeed choose this option.

I would go to the garage with a spare set of blades, fit them, car passes and then drive home.

I did once nearly fail. I had changed my blades as they were tired (unexpectedly), put new blades on and they quickly became a noticeably secondhand.
I worked out someone had nicked my reasonable blades giving me their old ones. Then it seems they swapped for my brand new ones. I noticed because the first swap gave a brand I did not recognise, the second pair I recognised !. My next new set I cut hole in and added orange wire to attach them more firmly - just enough to put off the lazy ones. But the garage failed them as in danger of coming lose - until I pointed out the only reason they would have come loose !.

Bit of an aside but it is one of the reasons I don't want a new expensive car so EVs are a way off yet.

 

[birchesgreen]

I've had it once because of a quirk of how I drive - I passed my test then drove nothing but the Uni Union minibus for a couple of years, as a result of which I make heavy use of side mirrors and very little of the back window. It had perished rather than worn. I now check it more often.

I don't think the rear window wiper is included in the MOT, my old Fiesta had the same blade for the 14 years i had it, and for about 10 of those years the wiper was pretty useless! Front wipers failed the MOT a couple of times.