Manchester 13/14 Shoutiness Spreading across the Pennines

[driverd]

The last time I shouted like that at Leeds - (and for the second time in my career, if that's of interest) was last Friday evening, when a male person decided to run up to the train as it was about to depart and started licking the window next to where his mates were sat. For fun, obviously.

For context, I'm a Guard, and my head was sticking out of the cab window, ready to give 2 to depart.

If anyone shouts an instruction at you, follow it. And follow it IMMEDIATELY.

If you don't agree with the instruction, raise it separately after the event. And if it truly was a silly, unnecessary 'shout' - keep raising it until you get things changed.

BUT:

Do not ignore the shouted instruction at the time it is given.

It could be the difference between life and death.

YOUR life. YOUR death.

You, as the person being shouted at, are not, sadly, qualified to judge.

But I (as you personally well know), hold PTS, years of experience on the infrastructure and am routinely around trains. I've been shouted at by (as pointed out by someone who works in station management earlier in the thread) the agency staff employed to shout at people. They don't know that I'm perfectly qualified to make judgements about my own safety - given there was no train in the platform nor any train approaching - yet being slightly forward of the red line was sufficient to be bellowed at. I'd argue (though for the benefit of the tape, have never actually argued with any of the shouty staff) that would also be perfectly safe, given the lack of train in or approaching the platform, for any of the other people who also got shouted at, during the 3 or so minutes I had the misfortune of being on platform 13 at Manchester Piccadilly.

The problem is lack of moderation. You're not usually a shouter at work, and as you say, you've probably done it twice in your career. When platform staff stand there screaming at folk continously, the urgency suggested by shouting is completely lost.

Essentially, we're all just moaning about over use of a tool that is highly effective when used appropriately - and that over-use makes it totally ineffective.

Genuinely I do wonder if some of the people posting have ever actually been to Manchester Piccadilly and know what is being referenced here first hand - that or perhaps I've just happened to be there when the staff on duty were particularly over-zealous.

 

[Krokodil]

Genuinely I do wonder if some of the people posting have ever actually been to Manchester Piccadilly and know what is being referenced here first hand

I'm regularly there (though admittedly usually arriving and departing on the same train, as a guard I don't often spend time there between trains) and I don't tend to see people being "bawled at" without good cause.

For that matter I do sometimes spend time between trains at Crewe and don't see people being yelled at for putting one toe over the line for a nanosecond with no train for miles around. I do however often see people obliviously walking down the dispatch corridor with a train approaching from behind.

 

[sh24]

Shouting is a legitimate thing to do when there is a need for passengers to REALLY focus on instructions. Airline cabin crew are trained to do this in the event of an evacuation, for example. Shouting seems a legitimate response to the window ticker. However, someone placing a foot over a yellow line on an empty platform really isn't an emergency...

 

[43066]

But I'm sure you've been on platforms where the staff have just been shouting at people. Maybe you thought this was fun and part of the entertainment? Or you thought "gosh these folks seem aggressive.".

On the occasions I have witnessed it, it has been fully justified. I’ve never been on a platform where it occurs that often. Manchester I don’t know particularly well but people are claiming it’s an issue at locations I’m very familiar with (Derby and Nottingham, on the similar thread in speculative discussion), where I know it isn’t. So that’s enough to convince me it’s being overstated.

I find it interesting how entrenched some railway employees seem to become when customers suggest a need for improvements.

Most customers aren’t suggesting a need for improvements, to my knowledge. Again certain things seem to bother posters on here which most people will barely register; announcements being another example.

Again, it's purely anecdotal, but I've never seen one single complaint about shouty platform staff on "normal" social media. Delays, cancellations, overcrowding, fares and ticketing - yes. But not shouting.

This is a very good point. I’ve also never heard anyone mention this as an issue outside of this forum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How on earth do pedestrians manage to safely use pavements, without yellow lines and people to shout at us if we stray too close to the kerb?

Usually a road vehicle can swerve to avoid hitting a pedestrian who steps out. A train can't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2025 ==

Shouting is a legitimate thing to do when there is a need for passengers to REALLY focus on instructions. Airline cabin crew are trained to do this in the event of an evacuation, for example.

They absolutely do not.

What they do is speak loudly, clearly and consistently with a simple, authoritative instruction - "head down stay down" as a chant for example, or "evacuate evacuate". Not just yelling. There's quite a difference between screaming something barely intelligible and speaking loudly and assertively with a simple, clear message.

Some staff do seem to manage this on platforms, e.g. a very clear "stand away please", but more seem to yell incomprehensibly which is ineffective, because it only conveys "this person is angry" not the instruction. That's one reason why I think an automatic announcement with a distinct tone may be more effective than yelling.

Along those lines, by the way, I spent a fair bit of the start of my time living in Germany trying to work out what the U- and S-Bahn drivers* were muttering on departure, something like "Zuckbmtbitt". Now it's a loud but clear automated voice clearly enunciating "Zurueckbleiben, bitte" - "stay back, please" - and this is much more effective.

* German U- and S-Bahn trains have speakers on the outside. I think in the UK only the Merseyrail 777s do, but they're rarely used. They would be a good addition on lines with DOO dispatch for this sort of purpose.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2025 ==

Most customers aren’t suggesting a need for improvements, to my knowledge. Again certain things seem to bother posters on here which most people will barely register; announcements being another example.

Most customers think the railway is rubbish - expensive, unreliable and surly staff - and don't expect that suggesting things is going to change anything, which by and large is a correct expectation.

I very much doubt they like being yelled at, but they tolerate it as something they just associate with the general feeling of the poor service.

Yes, feeling is that bad, particularly on commuter routes. Spend 2 seconds on any local commuter Facebook group and you'll see just how reviled the railway is - they only use it because the car is worse, not because it's good. Curiously, despite their fares policy, LNER seems about the only TOC that seems to get pretty good comments from most customers in such places.

 

[43066]

Most customers think the railway is rubbish - expensive, unreliable and surly staff - and don't expect that suggesting things is going to change anything, which by and large is a correct expectation.

Is there any evidence of this? Passenger surveys and rising numbers tell a different story. I’m not sure posts on social media are at all representative (be it Facebook, or wherever), as people tend to post when they have a complaint, but it’s rarer for people to praise something they’ve had an acceptable experience of. It’s also true that the same people often complain again and again.

I’ve also never seen any complaints about shouting specifically.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2025 ==

I very much doubt they like being yelled at, but they tolerate it as something they just associate with the general feeling of the poor service.

As noted above, most people manage to use the railway without being shouted at!

 

[scragend]

Along those lines, by the way, I spent a fair bit of the start of my time living in Germany trying to work out what the U- and S-Bahn drivers* were muttering on departure, something like "Zuckbmtbitt". Now it's a loud but clear automated voice clearly enunciating "Zurueckbleiben, bitte" - "stay back, please" - and this is much more effective.

Ahh! Whenever I've been in Berlin I've never been able to catch that word. I can hear the "Zurück" bit but, not being much of a German speaker, never managed to work out the second part of the word.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Perhaps I could suggest it's not necessarily the message that is the problem, but the delivery then? If people are switching off to the shouting (and who wouldn't) then perhaps other techniques may be more useful? Think of actors or singers on the stage before the days of microphones everywhere - they learned how to project their voice and have it carry across a theatre without it being a shout. Maybe we should send these people to theatre school - I'm not suggesting Shakespearean soliloquies* at everyone who crosses the yellow line, but the technique may make their efforts more pleasant for all - including themselves as that level of shouting can damage your vocal cords. Alternatively, teacher training college - my late father-in-law had a voice we called "teacher mode" - not noticeably above talking level, yet capable of cutting across a noisy classroom (or busy restaurant), and with such a tone it seemed that it completely bypassed conscious thought and sent people scurrying off to do whatever they'd been told before they even realised!

*Pray merry traveller, for thine own sake, stands't behind the wondrous golden line which has been laid down in front of thee by an army of orange, desirous of nothing more than to keep thee safe and untroubled by the untender machinations of the wild and restless iron beasts as they pass...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any evidence of this? Passenger surveys and rising numbers tell a different story.

Rising numbers on commuter services is likely to be more to do with companies increasingly returning homeworkers to at least part-time office working. Not because the experience on commuter services is anything other than absolutely rubbish from end to end, which even as a railway advocate I take the view that it simply is, particularly Northern but also other such services. Shouty men just add a bit more rubbishness to it.

LNER's fare increase trial does seem to demonstrate that people are willing to pay more for a higher quality service, I suppose (aside from the fares, LNER is a pretty good operation as a whole). But long distance journeys are not things people do often and are probably less likely to see people witnessing the sort of shouting that goes on at busy non-terminal platforms.

 

[Bikeman78]

You should hear it at Cardiff Central! Platforms can get very congested as they are narrow in places. Platform staff can be heard yelling at people who have few options in terms of where to wait. When a 10 car 800 is in the platform they shout telling people to use the full length of the platform, but its too congested to move.

I had a discussion with a member of staff some years ago. I was trying to walk along platform 2 to get to the gents. The platform was crowded and the only route was on the wrong side of the line. I got told off. He was very concerned about the class 175 that was about to move. It didn't actually move for another minute and departed at walking speed. I have closer interactions, at greater speed, with a bus or lorry at least weekly whilst on my bike.

 

[BG2024]

Today's P14 announcement: "can I politely request passengers remain behind the red line". I think we're being watched!

 

[Discuss223]

I can see both sides of the coin. For example, protruding over the yellow line is a serious health and safety issue that is one of the few times customer service personnel are quite right to give firm orders to customers, and that does include the raising of voices.

That said, TransPennine Express have some very nasty platform Supervisors on platform 16 at Leeds that will bark and scream at people disembarking from platform 17 a/b to walk around the inward side of the staircase/escalators, even if not over the yellow line and even if the train is not being dispatched. This seems very harsh given that there are no safety issues or dispatching taking place at the time when I've encountered it. The northern side of the staircase is intended for passengers to walk along and it's rather cheeky in my opinion to ask customers to change their course of path when Network Rail, whose station it is seem to have no problem with customers walking in such a way.

The station infrastructure on the platforms at Leeds is VERY poorly designed and located. This is a problem worsened by Leeds being an often crush-loaded commuter station. Of-course there are times when a shout and firm order is neccessary, after all, the dispatcher could face criminal trial if an injury occurs but patience is needed at stations such as Leeds, where the platforms are poorly designed and have conflicting flows of on-foot traffic. For example at EMR stations, the dispatchers only shout if a customer crosses the line during arrival/departure and they don't shout for example if a customer crosses the yellow line whilst the train is stationary and boarding, for example to get around a wheelchair on the platform or suitcases blocking the way. It's a thorny subject but clear guidelines and a customer-focussed approach where possible is the way to go about it.

 

[Bikeman78]

People who write risk assessments for the mainline would have a heart attack if they spent 10 minutes at Bank Northern Line platforms at 5:30pm on a Tuesday. People standing almost touching arriving trains, walking alongside them as they leave, drivers deliberately closing doors on people etc. Yet if they tried the mainline approach you'd get dangerous overcrowding very quickly.

Or any major Dutch station. All trains are self dispatch at all locations. When a 12 car double decker arrives, it looks like a disturbed ant nest.

 

[800001]

Or any major Dutch station. All trains are self dispatch at all locations. When a 12 car double decker arrives, it looks like a disturbed ant nest.

I cringe at Hamburg HBF when a double set ICE departs on the curved platforms. Self despatch by the guards, no yellow line, people actually touching train with hands as it moves, but no shouting as there are no platform staff, and miraculously I’ve not seen any accidents.
This is the same in Austria, Belgium and Switzerland from what I’ve seenz

 

[Segedunum]

German U- and S-Bahn trains have speakers on the outside. I think in the UK only the Merseyrail 777s do, but they're rarely used. They would be a good addition on lines with DOO dispatch for this sort of purpose.

The Class 555s on the Tyne & Wear Metro also have this feature. I've already been on services where the driver has played the 'stand back from the platform edge, this train is ready to depart' announcement at someone mashing the door button when the train is about to move. It does the trick - it's clear and sufficiently loud, and better than someone yelling (or the driver sounding the horn, as is sometimes done).

 

[Bikeman78]

I cringe at Hamburg HBF when a double set ICE departs on the curved platforms. Self despatch by the guards, no yellow line, people actually touching train with hands as it moves, but no shouting as there are no platform staff, and miraculously I’ve not seen any accidents.
This is the same in Austria, Belgium and Switzerland from what I’ve seenz

Suspect it is the same across Europe. I've seen plenty of Dutch people press the open button once the doors are shut or, as you say, when the train starts moving. Nothing bad happens. They look exasperated that they have missed the train and walk off towards the departure screens.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I cringe at Hamburg HBF when a double set ICE departs on the curved platforms. Self despatch by the guards, no yellow line, people actually touching train with hands as it moves, but no shouting as there are no platform staff, and miraculously I’ve not seen any accidents.
This is the same in Austria, Belgium and Switzerland from what I’ve seenz

Have they now removed the dispatchers at Hbf? They weren't very visible - unlike the UK they stood at a bank of screens though could talk over the PA - I remember once hearing a scream of "Anhalteeeennnnn" followed by the brakes going in when some idiot grabbed onto the door handles of a Silberling set and stood on the step as it moved off, pulling at the door to try to open it. Though even back in 2000 it was the only German station I recall having them (aside from U and S-Bahn where they sat in a raised glass box so they could see the whole platform) - elsewhere was guard dispatch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2025 ==

Suspect it is the same across Europe. I've seen plenty of Dutch people press the open button once the doors are shut or, as you say, when the train starts moving. Nothing bad happens. They look exasperated that they have missed the train and walk off towards the departure screens.

You get it here too. Plenty of stations don't use dispatchers - even at MKC WMT services are guard dispatched, only Avanti have platform staff. And once the door is shut (unless dispatching from the cab droplight) the guard can't see what's going on.

I've mentioned before having seen a dangerous incident on Merseyrail that was only averted by the driver seeing it in the DOO cameras and it's quite likely that had the stock been 507/508 a death might have occurred rather than a short delay.

 

[800001]

Have they now removed the dispatchers at Hbf? They weren't very visible - unlike the UK they stood at a bank of screens though could talk over the PA - I remember once hearing a scream of "Anhalteeeennnnn" followed by the brakes going in when some idiot grabbed onto the door handles of a Silberling set and stood on the step as it moved off, pulling at the door to try to open it. Though even back in 2000 it was the only German station I recall having them (aside from U and S-Bahn where they sat in a raised glass box so they could see the whole platform) - elsewhere was guard dispatch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2025 ==



You get it here too. Plenty of stations don't use dispatchers - even at MKC WMT services are guard dispatched, only Avanti have platform staff. And once the door is shut (unless dispatching from the cab droplight) the guard can't see what's going on.

I've mentioned before having seen a dangerous incident on Merseyrail that was only averted by the driver seeing it in the DOO cameras and it's quite likely that had the stock been 507/508 a death might have occurred rather than a short delay.

Only been to Hamburg HBF several days over two weeks, never seen any staff down on the platforms. (Unless like you say they were hidden)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only been to Hamburg HBF several days over two weeks, never seen any staff down on the platforms. (Unless like you say they were hidden)

They usually stood at banks of screens close to the bridge at one end (forget which end) rather than wandering round.

 

[crablab]

Have they now removed the dispatchers at Hbf? They weren't very visible - unlike the UK they stood at a bank of screens though could talk over the PA

They still exist on the S-Bahn platforms at Hamburg Hbf at least.

I've seen plenty of Dutch people press the open button once the doors are shut or, as you say, when the train starts moving. Nothing bad happens. They look exasperated that they have missed the train and walk off towards the departure screens.

Indeed. No shouting required, no additional employees to police compliance with the yellow line.

Genuinely I do wonder if some of the people posting have ever actually been to Manchester Piccadilly and know what is being referenced here first hand - that or perhaps I've just happened to be there when the staff on duty were particularly over-zealous.

I visit Manchester 13/14 infrequently.
It doesn't help the staff wear these police-style utility vests, that give them the air of 'enforcers' or the like - it's quite an intimidating look, I'd suggest.
The last time it wasn't very busy and one member of staff was walking up and down between the yellow line and the edge. The other was making piecemeal announcements about a delay via the microphone, but in chunks. This was presumably because of the (5s?) delay in her speaking and it being amplified creating confusion. It wasn't very intelligible.

When the next service arrived, there were a 'raised voices' over the tannoy & from the guy at the edge about standing back and letting people off etc. Something which, from my angle, people were already doing.

There weren't any announcements about the freight train that came through P13 at not insignificant speed... I suppose they were preoccupied with ensuring no one stepped over the other yellow line.

I've certainly seen more 'direct' examples in the past on these platforms. In general there's a lot of 'raised voices', which is a contrast to other busy stations where this isn't really deemed necessary unless someone is doing something really idiotic. I tend to tune out the 'raised voices' at Manchester anyway, since the information supplied generally isn't relevant or useful to me.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Setting off from Workington this morning, and the placement of this fence on the yellow line made me smile a little...

I imagine there's some poor NR H&S type weighing up the relative risk of the roof falling on passengers Vs the risk of them having to use the platform on the wrong side of the yellow line

For anyone unfamiliar with the station, the platform is for southbound trains to Whitehaven/Barrow in Furness/Lancaster, and the rear doors of the train will normally be to the left of that fencing as you look at it. It also leads to the disabled access to the northbound platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's some very strange signage. Almost thought it was an AI job for a minute!

 

[Chris Hamilton]

Last time I was at Warrington Bank Quay, I had disembarked an Avanti on Platform 2 and crossed over to 4 to pick up a service to Manchester. The platform was very congested at one end, so I stepped over the yellow line (when there wasn’t a train in sight) by about a foot width, and next thing I’m being yelled at aggressively by someone with a real sense of superiority. In hindisght, I should have walked along the near deserted P3, but c‘est la vie.

Now, I just acknowledged them and moved back in when I could. Little do they know (as I was in civvies), I’m an PTS holder of 18 years, been a COSS for 16 years and spend my days standing the minimum line side distance of 2m from 125mph traffic. I’m perfectly aware of how to stay safe on the railway, and have far more real world experience than someone not even qualified enough to have an orange vest. I’ve even spent a bit of time prior to my current employment as on board staff at a TOC.

Platform 4 sees very little non stopping traffic, and has a line speed far lower than the mainline platforms (2/3) for the rare service that does pass through. I can see a bit of aggressiveness needed for those, but not P4. Also, the tone of the instruction was aggressive, and could end badly if given to the wrong person. I’m a 42 year old well built man, so it’s not like they thought they were picking on someone small that won’t fight back (I won’t, I’m a lover not a fighter).

I did fire off an email to Avanti (as they manage WBQ), acknowledging the need for crowd control, but suggesting they consider the tone and manner of the staff, especially when there is no real jeopardy. I was yelled at like I was about to jump off the platform. But there was no response.

 

[sheff1]

I cannot think of any setting where, as the patron/user/customer of any business or service, I would look to their uniformed staff as an example of how I should act. They are there in a completely different capacity to me.

When uniformed staff sit with their feet on the seats opposite I do not think it is the way I should act, but I can fully understand why people might think "if staff can do it, it must be fine".

On the occasions I have witnessed it, it has been fully justified. I’ve never been on a platform where it occurs that often. Manchester I don’t know particularly well but people are claiming it’s an issue at locations I’m very familiar with (Derby and Nottingham, on the similar thread in speculative discussion), where I know it isn’t. So that’s enough to convince me it’s being overstated.

I have not encountered a shouting problem at Derby or Nottingham either. At Manchester Piccadilly P14 unjustified shouting is definitely an issue, in my opinion, and has been for some time.

Maybe we should send these people to theatre school - I'm not suggesting Shakespearean soliloquies* at everyone who crosses the yellow line, but the technique may make their efforts more pleasant for all - including themselves as that level of shouting can damage your vocal cords. Alternatively, teacher training college - my late father-in-law had a voice we called "teacher mode" - not noticeably above talking level, yet capable of cutting across a noisy classroom (or busy restaurant), and with such a tone it seemed that it completely bypassed conscious thought and sent people scurrying off to do whatever they'd been told before they even realised!

Like it. My son has a "teacher voice" mode which, when used in adult situations, has the effect you describe.

 

[nanstallon]

The problem really is that the railway has always had an authoritarian attitude towards the customer, and perhaps attracts a certain breed of employee, who enjoy shouting at people. To be fair, the offenders include agency staff sometimes (Rentathug). And also to be fair, there are some idiots among the Great British Public, who seem to have a death wish. However, most people prefer not to be treated as three year olds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like it. My son has a "teacher voice" mode which, when used in adult situations, has the effect you describe.

An authoritative, loud and clear enunciation and shouting aren't the same thing. The former is as you say a professional skill, and you have to pay a decent sum to get someone who is good at it. Minimum wage security guards, not really.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

That's some very strange signage. Almost thought it was an AI job for a minute!

No, it's the work of Workington Transport Heritage Trust. One of their volunteers worked for Northern in the ticket office, so the group take a pretty active role in caring for the station - gardening, they've got a video display about rail making, as at one point the majority of rails were made in Workington, they've got a coffee shop there to raise funds for the Trust, and they've put up various Workington and Transport related boards around the station.

Oh, and they also do some of the RRB work in their newer preserved vehicles - they have a fleet of around 20/25 buses and coaches, all with local connections, a few of which are still PSV tested, along with an O licence.

The reason for the two signs is that although now known as Workington, in days gone by, it was known as Workington Main to signify it was the main station, as opposed to Workington Central, which was so called only because it was in the middle of town.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it's the work of Workington Transport Heritage Trust. One of their volunteers worked for Northern in the ticket office, so the group take a pretty active role in caring for the station - gardening, they've got a video display about rail making, as at one point the majority of rails were made in Workington, they've got a coffee shop there to raise funds for the Trust, and they've put up various Workington and Transport related boards around the station.

Oh, and they also do some of the RRB work in their newer preserved vehicles - they have a fleet of around 20/25 buses and coaches, all with local connections, a few of which are still PSV tested, along with an O licence.

The reason for the two signs is that although now known as Workington, in days gone by, it was known as Workington Main to signify it was the main station, as opposed to Workington Central, which was so called only because it was in the middle of town.

Replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/unusual-signage-at-workington.280508/

 

[Krokodil]

An authoritative, loud and clear enunciation and shouting aren't the same thing. The former is as you say a professional skill, and you have to pay a decent sum to get someone who is good at it. Minimum wage security guards, not really.

Though when my authoritative, loud and clear enunciation failed to persuade a drunk that his banging on the train window to his mates onboard needed to finish so that I could dispatch, it was handy having a pair of security guards on hand who could bodily remove him from the side of my train.

 

[J-2739]

Though when my authoritative, loud and clear enunciation failed to persuade a drunk that his banging on the train window to his mates onboard needed to finish so that I could dispatch, it was handy having a pair of security guards on hand who could bodily remove him from the side of my train.

No amount of talking will deal with someone who is determined, or just flat out drunk.

And what you've described is a security guard doing what they do best. Which is not shouting down at passengers.