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...A clear, firm but polite “keep back from the edge please” will always have a more positive effect on me than a pseudo-aggressive, repeatedly shouted “stand back”.
Your above post clearly identifies why the approach is ridiculous - as you say, the maximum speed at Derby is 40, though on the most busy platforms (3 & 4) is only 25. Like you say, you can be inches from a far more unpredictable vehicle travelling far faster, and day in, day out, pedestrians manage to not be killed in such circumstances.
I particularly agree with your final comments - aggressive shouting should be saved for genuine emergencies when people /need/ to be taken immediately out of danger. Otherwise you just get a "boy who cried wolf" response and the assertive shouting of instructions is meaningless.
I particularly agree with your final comments - aggressive shouting should be saved for genuine emergencies when people /need/ to be taken immediately out of danger. Otherwise you just get a "boy who cried wolf" response and the assertive shouting of instructions is meaningless.
The rarity of a staff member shouting should be a big clue that people need to pay attention. If it's every train at every station then it just becomes another annoying element of the rail experience. I'll turn up the headphones and block it out as it's just more aggressive background noise that (almost always) isn't relevant to me.
So they need to shout less - to make it more effective and noticeable. That means only when people are over the line, rather than just walking down the platform on the correct (platform-side) of the line, and potentially not even in every instance then - if no train is approaching and someone is stepping out around some electric bin wagon that's been parked across the platform or to get around someone sat on a bench, that shouldn't merit an experience similar to the start of a fight in a pub.
I completely agree. The spread of this "approach" to passenger management is the problem. It MIGHT make sense as a short-term response to Manchester Piccadilly's issues on 13/14 during the timetable collapse of pre-Covid (that I experienced first-hand, although even then I have questions) but it doesn't apply to Derby or Leeds or wherever in normal times with normal platform usage.
All it means is that:
A) rail travel is now less pleasant
B) passengers are more likely to to tune out staff members shouting because they assume it is "the same old" - which may actually be dangerous.
I completely agree. The spread of this "approach" to passenger management is the problem. It MIGHT make sense as a short-term response to Manchester Piccadilly's issues on 13/14 during the timetable collapse of pre-Covid (that I experienced first-hand, although even then I have questions) but it doesn't apply to Derby or Leeds or wherever in normal times with normal platform usage.
All it means is that:
A) rail travel is now less pleasant
B) passengers are more likely to to tune out staff members shouting because they assume it is "the same old" - which may actually be dangerous.
Agreed. Is it just my ageing imagination, or has the railway become a much more customer-unfriendly environment over the last 30 years.
As for the specific point of the yellow lines etc, why is it necessary for quite such a ferocious approach to that sort of thing to be taken in some contexts, such as the railway, but not in others? I am not free to stand on (not across) the marker-line at Manchester Piccadilly, but I am completely free to go not very far from Manchester and walk at night along an unlit road with no pavements without even a requirement for a high-viz jacket? Why are we left entirely responsible for our own safety on one sort of transport corridor, but treated as foolish children who have no concept of risk on another one?
Agreed. Is it just my ageing imagination, or has the railway become a much more customer-unfriendly environment over the last 30 years.
As for the specific point of the yellow lines etc, why is it necessary for quite such a ferocious approach to that sort of thing to be taken in some contexts, such as the railway, but not in others? I am not free to stand on (not across) the marker-line at Manchester Piccadilly, but I am completely free to go not very far from Manchester and walk at night along an unlit road with no pavements without even a requirement for a high-viz jacket? Why are we left entirely responsible for our own safety on one sort of transport corridor, but treated as foolish children who have no concept of risk on another one?
I think this is due to Health and Safety legislation and past court cases which has set presidents, specifically the safety and wellbeing of non employees within company property. Hence large companies take H&S very seriously (and sometimes go overkill, due to treating everybody as not having any common sense at all).
I think this is due to Health and Safety legislation and past court cases which has set presidents, specifically the safety and wellbeing of non employees within company property. Hence large companies take H&S very seriously (and sometimes go overkill, due to treating everybody as not having any common sense at all).
At Crewe yesterday I was walking up a platform on the 'safe' side of the yellow line and there was a dispatcher on the 'lethal' side of it, facing away from me. Just as I reached her she stepped across in front of me, forcing me to go over the line to avoid smacking into her back. At which point she turned round and shouted at me from point-blank range. I have to admit that I said a rude word.
At the end of the day staff are going to shout because if someone gets dragged, they get sacked / jailed. James Street / Hamiliton Square / West Wickham / Hayes and Harlington and so on show the real world consequences when staff do not crowd control platforms properly. Blunt truth is, staff won't care less about "hurting someone's feelings" if the alternative is they get dragged under and that staff member ends up in prison or the dole. Where as staff are unlikely to get any comeback whatsoever for shouting at anyone (unless it is abusive or personally insulting) - and are more likely to get praise for being observant and not tolerating any dangerous behaviour.
Making staff immune from dismissal / prosecution if someone ends up being converted to dog food, and putting ALL the liability solely on the person is the only solution (bar platform doors) if you want the staff to be silent.
A need for more leadership from senior managers in setting standards for managing safety and Chris Green-style "managing by wandering around" etc. Occasional descriptions of the behaviour of "agency staff" and some staff members at rogue fiefdoms like Blackpool North tend to border on the lunatics running the asylum in tandem with abdication of management's responsibility.
At the end of the day staff are going to shout because if someone gets dragged, they get sacked / jailed. James Street / Hamiliton Square / West Wickham / Hayes and Harlington and so on show the real world consequences when staff do not crowd control platforms properly. Blunt truth is, staff won't care less about "hurting someone's feelings" if the alternative is they get dragged under and that staff member ends up in prison or the dole. Where as staff are unlikely to get any comeback whatsoever for shouting at anyone (unless it is abusive or personally insulting) - and are more likely to get praise for being observant and not tolerating any dangerous behaviour.
Then let's not blame individual members of staff. If they are told to shout or else they'll be taken to court then shout they must. The questions are:
- is it effective (appears to be no given the fact that it' is increasing rather than decreasing)
- is it making the railway safer (given the above, probably not)
- is it making having a negative impact on the railways experience (appears to be yes)
- is having people employed to shout at people costing an additional amount of time and resource to the railway (appears to be yes)
So regardless of the individuals, what we are doing is costing the railway money and goodwill for something that is making travelling worse and - at best - having no real impact on safety.
Seems like a pretty bad trade off to me that is (seeing the "cry wolf" posts above) of long term detriment to people paying attention to railway staff. The problem isn't the people who are paid/enabled to shout, it's the system that thinks shouting is the answer to whatever question they are asking.
And that last point is key. What is the question? Is it
- "what makes a difference?" (Answer: unclear)
- "what appears to make a difference?" (Answer: unclear)
- "What looks like we're trying to make a difference?" (Answer: well they appear to be doing something but at what cost? - see above).
Haranguing your customers should be a last resort at times of significant, imminent danger, not the first resort at all times even when there is minimal risk. Especially when (as other posters have mentioned) the activity is "walking near to a potential hazard" - a task that most people undertake multiple times a day when they step outside of their house.
Either the people staffing the platforms are at fault for shouting excessively beyond the remit of the approach outlined to them (e.g. clear and present danger) or the system is enabling and encouraging them to harass customers who haven't done anything wrong.
Agreed. Is it just my ageing imagination, or has the railway become a much more customer-unfriendly environment over the last 30 years.
As for the specific point of the yellow lines etc, why is it necessary for quite such a ferocious approach to that sort of thing to be taken in some contexts, such as the railway, but not in others? I am not free to stand on (not across) the marker-line at Manchester Piccadilly, but I am completely free to go not very far from Manchester and walk at night along an unlit road with no pavements without even a requirement for a high-viz jacket? Why are we left entirely responsible for our own safety on one sort of transport corridor, but treated as foolish children who have no concept of risk on another one?
Generally speaking, people are far more familiar with roads and more aware of the risks. They feel at-risk when walking along and unlit road or alongside a busy dual carriageway. People feel safe when at a railway station.
People walking along a road will normally be aware of which direction traffic will be approaching from and have (or quickly establish) a rough idea of what speed the traffic will be passing at. Many members of the general public (not those posting on these forums) will have no such understanding when it comes to a railway station. They may arrive at a station platform, see a train departing in one direction and (incorrectly) assume that all trains depart in that direction. They may (incorrectly) assume that all trains using that line stop at that platform and will be travelling at a very low speed, with nothing passing through at a higher speed.
People deal with roads on an almost daily basis from a very young age. They are aware that road vehicles can stop/slow down relatively quickly and that road vehicles can also swerve out of the way. Many people are unaware of just how long it can take a train to stop.
Step off a kerb and you have a 3 inch drop - if you're unlucky you may twist your ankle and if you're very very unlucky you may then fall into the carriageway. Step of a railway platform and you have a 3 foot drop with no chance of a rapid return to safety.
People scream and shout at their young children for getting to close to the edge of the pavement yet I've also seen people allow their children to get MUCH closer to the edge of a platform - well aware that a train is due to arrive at any moment - and say not a word.
From time to time I've seen people waiting at bus stops, sitting on the edge of the pavement. A bit daft, but fairly easy for oncoming to avoid them and also fairly easy for them to get out the way themselves - made easier by having their feet on the ground. If someone is sitting on the edge of a platform (which happens) it's both much harder for a train to avoid hitting them and harder for them to move out of the way quickly.
Finally, leaving aside people who intend to end their lives, how many people are hit by trains on a daily basis compared to those hit by road vehicles?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Posts on these forums seem to suggest that shouting is spreading to other locations, rather than increasing at existing locations. In fact, some posts even suggest that the amount of shouting at existing locations is decreasing, so I'd probably argue that it has been seen to be effective.
Somewhat subjective and more difficult to quantify, but if fewer people are crossing the yellow line and there are fewer PTI incidents than before at "shouty" locations, then the answer would be yes. Only if there has been an increase incidents since the introduction of "shoutiness" could you truly argue that shouting has made things more dangerous, so at it's probably safety neutral at worst.
Is it really having a negative impact on most people's experience? Would that experience be improved if there was an incident - potentially causing injury, mental trauma and resulting in service cancellations and disruption to hundreds or thousands of people's journeys?
Posts on these forums seem to suggest that shouting is spreading to other locations, rather than increasing at existing locations. In fact, some posts even suggest that the amount of shouting at existing locations is decreasing, so I'd probably argue that it has been seen to be effective.
I haven't noticed places that began the shouting having any less shouting as a result. Platforms 13/14 at Manchester Piccadilly may do but that is - as suggested by posts above - probably due to the revised arrangements about letting people onto the platform rather than anything else. A cursory glance back through the posts doesn't suggest anywhere where, once shouting has begun, it has become less commonplace - although do correct me if I missed it.
Somewhat subjective and more difficult to quantify, but if fewer people are crossing the yellow line and there are fewer PTI incidents than before at "shouty" locations, then the answer would be yes. Only if there has been an increase incidents since the introduction of "shoutiness" could you truly argue that shouting has made things more dangerous, so at it's probably safety neutral at worst
if fewer people fall in between train and platform at locations with shouty people then it has made things safer. I haven't said it made things more dangerous - I just said it hadn't made them obviously safer whilst it has been deeply unpleasant.
.Is it really having a negative impact on most people's experience? Would that experience be improved if there was an incident - potentially causing injury, mental trauma and resulting in service cancellations and disruption to hundreds or thousands of people's journeys?
Does anyone enjoy being bawled at for walking down a platform whilst doing nothing wrong, just because you are near - not even over - the yellow line (see opening post)? Having people shouting - not even at you but just around you - in unpleasant, I don't think that needs any further comment.
If the shouty places are noticeably safer than the remaining non-shouty places then fair, of course not witnessing that is more pleasant, but for the vast majority of people, the vast majority of the time, the experience is of the needless shouty people.
Manchester certainly did. If, also, other places think that "having people on hand to shout at people" is important than that will require more staff than if they didn't.
That is truly disgraceful. Instead of resolving dangerous overcrowding caused by a totally chaotic service by making the service less chaotic people were employed to make passenger's lives even more miserable by not just being stuck at the station through no fault of their own but also being aggressively shouted at.
I haven't noticed places that begun the shouting having any less shouting as a result. Platforms 13/14 at Manchester Piccadilly may do but that is - as suggested by posts above - probably due to the revised arrangements about letting people onto the platform rather than anything else. A cursory glance back through the posts doesn't suggest anywhere where, once shouting has begun, it has become less commonplace - although do correct me if I missed it.
It's all anecdotal I suppose - I can't say I've ever noticed a significantly higher level of "shoutiness" at some of the stations identified here as amongst the worst "culprits" than I have at any other station with dispatchers. It suggests, to me personally at least, that perhaps certain people are experiencing more shoutiness at certain stations because it is they who think they know better and constantly ignore the staff.
if fewer people fall in between train and platform at locations with shouty people then it has made things safer. I haven't said it made things more dangerous - I just said it hadn't made them obviously safer whilst it has been deeply unpleasant.
I expect the amount of passengers finding it "deeply unpleasant" is absolutely miniscule. Most will simply accept that it is part of the noise of a busy railway station. It's hardly like they're using threatening and abusive language.
Does anyone enjoy being bawled at for walking down a platform whilst doing nothing wrong, just because you are near - not even over - the yellow line (see opening post)? Having people shouting - not even at you but just around you - in unpleasant, I don't think that needs any further comment.
If the shouty places are noticeably safer than the remaining non-shouty places then fair, of course not witnessing that is more pleasant, but for the vast majority of people, the vast majority of the time, the experience is of the needless shouty people.
It's not meant to be enjoyed, that's the point. By far the vast majority of the shouting at (at least) 3 of the locations commonly mentioned is almost exclusively when a train is approaching or ready to depart and people are over the yellow line. I'm not saying it's pleasant or desirable, or even that there aren't some instances where people have been shouted at whilst not over the line (although I suspect the person shouting has judged the person walking to look like they are about the cross the line). How else, though, do you communicate a potentially urgent instruction to somebody 50+ metres away, in an already noisy environment? A politely spoken sentence would frankly be like peeing in the wind. It's needs to be loud and it's needs to be short and sharp in order to be clear.
Manchester certainly did. If, also, other places think that "having people on hand to shout at people" is important than that will require more staff than if they didn't.
Unless the job description was solely "you will stand on platforms 13/14 and continuously shout at people", then no, they were not employed specifically to shout at people. They are additional staff to keep the platform environment safe, when now use a hand mic to make PA announcements. Elsewhere, the "shouty" people are actually just the station staff and dispatchers who would be there anyway.
It's all anecdotal I suppose - I can't say I've ever noticed a significantly higher level of "shoutiness" at some of the stations identified here as amongst the worst "culprits" than I have at any other station with dispatchers. It suggests, to me personally at least, that perhaps certain people are experiencing more shoutiness at certain stations because it is they who think they know better and constantly ignore the staff - some here have proudly declared that they do so.
Utter tosh. I strongly suspect at least part of that comment is aimed at me and I haven't proudly declared I constantly ignore staff at all. Your drivel is a complete corruption of what I did write.
Utter tosh. I strongly suspect at least part of that comment is aimed at me and I haven't proudly declared I constantly ignore staff at all. Your drivel is a complete corruption of what I did write.
Some Man Picc gate staff seem to have an attitude problem verging on the aggressive. I wonder if they rotate their duties with platform management. The other day I showed my ticket when exiting from one of the terminus platforms, firstly I was shouted at for trying to leave through the "wrong" gate, and then despite showing a perfectly valid ticket I was asked for my railcard as well. I know this is a requirement when asked by an authorised person, but on exiting a station? The only other time this has happened was at... Blackpool North, surprise surprise.
...They may (incorrectly) assume that all trains using that line stop at that platform and will be travelling at a very low speed, with nothing passing through at a higher speed.
We're talking about 3 key locations - Manchester p13/14 (line speed 20mph), Leeds (all lines 15mph when approaching, stopping or not) and Derby (40mph plat 1/2, but the busy platforms tend to be 3/4, which are 25 mph). So even in the case of a passing train, the speed is roughly at or marginally above that of proceeding at Caution, basically so slow a driver could stop in line of sight.
People deal with roads on an almost daily basis from a very young age. They are aware that road vehicles can stop/slow down relatively quickly and that road vehicles can also swerve out of the way. Many people are unaware of just how long it can take a train to stop.
From time to time I've seen people waiting at bus stops, sitting on the edge of the pavement. A bit daft, but fairly easy for oncoming to avoid them and also fairly easy for them to get out the way themselves - made easier by having their feet on the ground. If someone is sitting on the edge of a platform (which happens) it's both much harder for a train to avoid hitting them and harder for them to move out of the way quickly.
Finally, leaving aside people who intend to end their lives, how many people are hit by trains on a daily basis compared to those hit by road vehicles?
To the best of my knowledge I've not heard about any incident that comes to mind, where a person who isn't either disabled or intoxicated, has just casually fallen off a platform and come to blows.
Posts on these forums seem to suggest that shouting is spreading to other locations, rather than increasing at existing locations. In fact, some posts even suggest that the amount of shouting at existing locations is decreasing, so I'd probably argue that it has been seen to be effective.
As in my above (long) post above, I suspect quite the opposite - it's making minimal difference, but makes managers look as though they're doing something, about a barely existent problem.
Somewhat subjective and more difficult to quantify, but if fewer people are crossing the yellow line and there are fewer PTI incidents than before at "shouty" locations, then the answer would be yes. Only if there has been an increase incidents since the introduction of "shoutiness" could you truly argue that shouting has made things more dangerous, so at it's probably safety neutral at worst.
It would be pointless to try and answer that objectively without the stats, but having worked in the industry for well over a decade now, people just dropping off platforms isn't something I've ever really seen brought up in safety briefs. Where it does happen, it's usually down to either bikes/buggies dropping off the edge and taking the owner with them, intoxication or disabilities (see up thread). Shouting at anyone in any of these categories is likely to have, at best, minimal effect, whereas a personal intervention would be hugely more effective (and, indeed, is what was always briefed).
Is it really having a negative impact on most people's experience? Would that experience be improved if there was an incident - potentially causing injury, mental trauma and resulting in service cancellations and disruption to hundreds or thousands of people's journeys?
Again, yes. See up thread. A member of staff from Manchester Piccadilly made a lengthy post explaining that multiple teams of agency staff were brought in specifically to shout at people on platform 13/14.
I'm all for improving safety, and there's lots of ways to do that. Removing or relocating platform furniture, managing crowding by using the full length of a platform and avoiding congregations, only allowing people onto a platform 5 or less minutes before their train arrives are all good examples of how this is achieved.
On overcrowded narrow platforms, I will admit to going slightly beyond the yellow line where necessary. I have been shouted at on occasion but I generally ignore them as I fear my reply would be somewhat intemperate.
I don't tend to shout at passengers unless they or their belongings are near the edge or sitting on the platform's edge.
It's all anecdotal I suppose - I can't say I've ever noticed a significantly higher level of "shoutiness" at some of the stations identified here as amongst the worst "culprits" than I have at any other station with dispatchers. It suggests, to me personally at least, that perhaps certain people are experiencing more shoutiness at certain stations because it is they who think they know better and constantly ignore the staff - some here have proudly declared that they do so.
I expect the amount of passengers finding it "deeply unpleasant" is absolutely miniscule. Most will simply accept that it is part of the noise of a busy railway station. It's hardly like they're using threatening and abusive language.
A) lots of people shouting all the time is unpleasant - I am amazed you think being shouted it is fine.
B) there are options available that involved not being shouted at.
C) if they accept it as being part of using the railway then the shouting has lost its purpose because everyone just ignores it. Anywhere else, be it an airline, a McDonalds, coach station or an industrial estate, someone yelling "WATCH OUT GET BACK!" warrants action. I hear "GET BACK!.MOVe BACK!GET BACK! AWAY!" so often at a station, yelled so indiscriminately and so inexplicably that I now just ignore it, and I'm sure others do too - and more will come to do so.
It's not meant to be enjoyed, that's the point. By far the vast majority of the shouting at (at least) 3 of the locations commonly mentioned is almost exclusively when a train is approaching or ready to depart and people are over the yellow line. I'm not saying it's pleasant or desirable, or even that there aren't some instances where people have been shouted at whilst not over the line (although I suspect the person shouting has judged the person walking to look like they are about the cross the line). How else, though, do you communicate a potentially urgent instruction to somebody 50+ metres away, in an already noisy environment? A politely spoken sentence would frankly be like p***ing in the wind. It's needs to be loud and it's needs to be short and sharp in order to be clear.
Unless the job description was solely "you will stand on platforms 13/14 and continuously shout at people", then no, they were not employed specifically to shout at people. They are additional staff to keep the platform environment safe, when now use a hand mic to make PA announcements. Elsewhere, the "shouty" people are actually just the station staff and dispatchers who would be there ananyway.i
I genuinely think this was part of the agency staff's job description. Regardless, if "dispatch trains" is a job and "shout at people near the yellow line when there isn't a train" is a job then to cover all the platforms more of the time you'll need more people.
Unless you're at an unstaffed station where we trust people to manage the yellow line themselves....
In the initial post I explicitly pointed out that neither myself nor anyone I could see was over the yellow line.
But this comes to the point made above:
A) lots of people shouting all the time is unpleasant - I am amazed you think being shouted it is fine.
B) there are options available that involved not being shouted at.
C) if they accept it as being part of using the railway then the shouting has lost its purpose because everyone just ignores it. Anywhere else, be it an airline, a McDonalds, coach station or an industrial estate, someone yelling "WATCH OUT GET BACK!" warrants action. I hear "GET BACK!.MOVe BACK!GET BACK! AWAY!" so often at a station, yelled so indiscriminately and so inexplicably that I now just ignore it, and I'm sure others do too - and more will come to do so.
Agreed - but it isn't being used only in those situations. It being deployed in non-urgent scenarios is exactly the point of the thread.
I genuinely think this was part of the agency staff's job description. Regardless, if "dispatch trains" is a job and "shout at people near the yellow line when there isn't a train" is a job then to cover all the platforms more of the time you'll need more people.
Unless you're at an unstaffed station where we trust people to manage the yellow line themselves....
As I said, it's clearly all anecdotal - pretty much the only shouting I witness is when a train is approaching or ready to depart and somebody is over the line. There are at least 3 locations which are often mentioned as being the main culprits for shouting, where in all my time there I have never witnessed excessive shouting over and above that needed to warn someone that a train is approaching or to tell them to stand clear of a departing train. It certainly isn't as constant and aggressive as people are making out. Either that, or I'm so lucky that I should definitely play the lottery this week.
Yes, that's probably quite close to the reality of the situation.
The "standards" or "competence" managers who pass out new platform staff want to hear all this din going on.
They'd be better off making sure the new staff were trained to make sure they're standing near the stairs to be alert to late runners or for checking the road hasn't gone back unexpectedly rather than shouting next to a voyager where you could you call a manager standing one carriage away a "twit"* and be sure they wouldn't hear.
Indeed. There’s a legal obligation to obey staff instructions, it isn’t optional. Wilful refusal could absolutely lead to being carted away in handcuffs. As a driver if I witnessed someone ignoring platform staffs’ instructions I’d refuse to allow them on any train I was working, because how do I know that person won’t kick off on the middle of nowhere when there’s only a guard to deal with them.
That’s not your call to make, though. I still don’t see why couldn’t you just ask them to move so that you could pass. Or alternatively wait until the train has arrived and pass through the inside.
You want compliance? Change the platform environment - add barriers, remove furniture, allow fewer passengers on the platform, provide additional platform staff to encourage passenger distribution. Dare I say it, add platform edge barriers as in Japan.
But you’re overlooking the fact the vast majority of people already comply and manage not to act in a way that prompts staff to need to shout at them! It only seems to be an issue for certain people on here.
Much of what you suggest above will be impossible on our Victorian network, and all of it will be too expensive.
It suggests, to me personally at least, that perhaps certain people are experiencing more shoutiness at certain stations because it is they who think they know better and constantly ignore the staff - some here have proudly declared that they do so.
Agreed. If you look at the disparaging way staff are referred to upthread, and a poster claiming to have lectured platform staff on line speeds, it perhaps gives a bit of an insight into why they experience the issues they do.
So, without pointing to specific posters or points:
- we should expect to be shouted at whilst using trains, as part of rail ambience
- we should be grateful because this general din is keeping us safe
- it's our mistake to find being shouted at offensive as it is actually normal in any industry to bellow abuse at your customers when they are in the proximity of doing something against a rule without necessarily contravening it. They deserve it because it might save one life so let's just bawl at anyone.
Cool.
Anyway. I do wonder why we struggle as a country to make public transport more attractive.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
As I said, it's clearly all anecdotal - pretty much the only shouting I witness is when a train is approaching or ready to depart and somebody is over the line. There are at least 3 locations which are often mentioned as being the main culprits for shouting, where in all my time there I have never witnessed excessive shouting over and above that needed to warn someone that a train is approaching or to tell them to stand clear of a departing train. It certainly isn't as constant and aggressive as people are making out. Either that, or I'm so lucky that I should definitely play the lottery this week.
You are genuinely lucky. The other messages in this thread demonstrate that excessive shouting is on the rise. Indeed, I started it because I was so surprised that there was such shouting happening at Leeds, which I had never previously experienced.
So, without pointing to specific posters or points:
- we should expect to be shouted at whilst using trains, as part of rail ambience
- we should be grateful because this general din is keeping us safe
- it's our mistake to find being shouted at offensive as it is actually normal in any industry to bellow abuse at your customers when they are in the proximity of doing something against a rule without necessarily contravening it. They deserve it because it might save one life so let's just bawl at anyone.
No. Nobody should be expecting to get shouted at just for travelling by train. That isn't what's happening.
There is nobody specifically nor additionally employed at these stations, who is standing on the platform continuously yelling at random people to get back behind the yellow line when they are nowhere near the line and/or there is neither a train approaching nor about to depart.
I'm not saying that no over-eager member of staff has never shouted outside of those circumstances, (they shouldn't be doing) but it certainly isn't happening on anywhere near the scale that people are suggesting.
If somebody is genuinely "bawling abuse" at you, then by all means go ahead and complain to the relevant TOC. For clarity, shouting "stand back please" from 50+ metres away, over the din of a diesel engine, is not "bawling abuse".
However, perhaps I misunderstood your post and there are station staff genuinely walking up to random passengers, standing less than 2m away from them and leaning in towards their face whilst shouting "expletive move back you expletiveexpletive? If that's the case (I'd be very surprised if it was) then that is indeed bang out of order.
But - and I think this has been lost- I'm not saying the shouting is happening AT people who are over the line, so much as it is just at passengers on the platform in general. By which I'm saying it is continuously happening AROUND people. So even if you aren't near the yellow line, even if you are the most law-abiding soul in the country and you hug the station building at all times, your "rail experience" is that anyone, any where near the yellow line - which is itself designed to be a safe distance from the platform edge -is being shouted at then you go "this isn't very nice". A platform where someone is constantly bellowing "STAND BACK!" at people who are - often - only near the danger zone rather than in it is not a pleasant place to be.
I'm not saying "being shouted at for being over the yellow line" shouldn't happen or isn't worthwhile, I'm just saying that the constant shouting is unpleasant, unuseful and means people generally now tune out staff shouting because they expect it.
It is becoming aggressive, ineffective background noise that people are tuning out. Which is doing neither the staff nor the passengers any favours.
Shouting constantly at folk either makes them ignore it or they leave. It doesn't really (as far as I can see) make them say "gosh yes I had better stand behind this line to help train dispatch".
- we should expect to be shouted at whilst using trains, as part of rail ambience
- we should be grateful because this general din is keeping us safe
- it's our mistake to find being shouted at offensive as it is actually normal in any industry to bellow abuse at your customers when they are in the proximity of doing something against a rule.
Who is “we”? I’m not sure who you’re speaking on behalf of here. I’ve used the railway regularly for the last twenty years or so and have never once been shouted at. It’s the same for most people.
The vast majority of the travelling public don’t get shouted at, because they behave sensibly and follow instructions. It’s hyperbolic in the extreme to describe an instruction to stand back as “abuse”.
A collection of anecdotes doesn’t really prove anything. Keep in mind the views expressed on this forum (predominantly enthusiasts and some staff) often bear no relation to those of the average passenger.
Who is “we”? I’m not sure who you’re speaking on behalf of here. I’ve used the railway regularly for the last twenty years or so and have never once been shouted at. It’s the same for most people.
But I'm sure you've been on platforms where the staff have been shouting at people. Maybe you thought this was fun and part of the entertainment? Or you thought "gosh my fellow passengers seem aggressively anti-railway by delaying dispatch so, so glad the staff are there." But I bet you weren't saying "I love this shouting. A great part of the ambience. 5 stars."
Either that or - as I mentioned in the original post - the shouting was enough of an outlier that I posted about it. In the spirit of "I hope this doesn't become more of a thing".
The vast majority of the travelling public don’t get shouted at, because they behave sensibly and follow instructions. It’s hyperbolic in the extreme to describe an instruction to stand back as “abuse”.
No. Most people don't get shouted at specifically. They aren't called out as individuals. But they are on platforms when the staff decide to aggressively shout at folk doing nothing wrong for seemingly no purpose but to make train dispatch seem like a rocket launch or something. And having someone shout towards you - even if they don't call you by name because you're fine, it is the person behind/beside you- is deeply unpleasant.
A collection of anecdotes doesn’t really prove anything. Keep in mind the views expressed on this forum (predominantly enthusiasts and some staff) often bear no relation to those of the average papassenger.
Both your and my experiences are anecdotal. We can't go any further. Maybe we just disagree. But I would say that an environment full of shouting people is less pleasant than one that isn't. Especially if (as I believe to be the case) it isn't even for any tangible, beneficial reason other than a power trip.
I find it interesting how entrenched some railway employees seem to become when customers suggest a need for improvements.
My opinion remains that if there is a routine need for staff to stress their vocal cords for passengers to remain safe, something needs to change. Especially of those same staff are routinely spending prolonged periods in the danger zone between passengers and the tracks.
But - and I think this has been lost- I'm not saying the shouting is happening AT people (although it is - juat at passengers on the platfork in general) by which I'm saying it is continuously happening AROUND people. So even if you aren't near the yellow line, even if you are the most law-abiding soul in the country and you hug the station building at all times, your "rail experience" is that anyone, any where near the yellow line - which is itself designed to be a safe distance from the platform edge -is being shouted at then you go "this isn't very nice". A platform where someone is constantly bellowing "STAND BACK!" at people who are - often - only near the danger zone rather than in it is not a pleasant place to be.
I'm not saying "being shouted at for being over the yellow line" shouldn't happen or isn't worthwhile, I'm just saying that the constant shouting is unpleasant, unuseful and means people generally now tune out staff shouting because they expect it.
It is becoming aggressive, ineffective background noise that people are tuning out. Which is doing neither the staff nor the passengers any favours.
Shouting constantly at folk either makes them ignore it or they leave. It doesn't really (as far as I can see) make them say "gosh yes I had better stand behind this line to help train dispatch".
Your previous post literally said "shouted at" and "bawled at", but nevermind. We're just going around in circles here anyway. You say people are constantly being shouted, my experience suggests otherwise. We'll simply have to agree to disagree.
Who is “we”? I’m not sure who you’re speaking on behalf of here. I’ve used the railway regularly for the last twenty years or so and have never once been shouted at. It’s the same for most people.
The vast majority of the travelling public don’t get shouted at, because they behave sensibly and follow instructions. It’s hyperbolic in the extreme to describe an instruction to stand back as “abuse”.
A collection of anecdotes doesn’t really prove anything. Keep in mind the views expressed on this forum (predominantly enthusiasts and some staff) often bear no relation to those of the average passenger.
I manage to use the railway without getting shouted at. Nor do I see or hear platform staff shouting at random passengers for no good reason. Any shouting has been with good cause and certainly couldn't be described as aggressive, abusive, bawling or any other such hyperbolic nonsense (well, unless you are a Reach plc journalist).
Again, it's purely anecdotal, but I've never seen one single complaint about shouty platform staff on "normal" social media. Delays, cancellations, overcrowding, fares and ticketing - yes. But not shouting.
With the exception of the fare dodgers section disputes and prosecutions section, the majority of contributors to this forum will have some sort of railway interest or knowledge - whether that be staff or enthusiast or some other interest. They are more likely to have knowledge and understanding of the railway that your everyday passenger doesn't have. As a result they are more likely to notice things going on around them and find certain things unnecessary or patronising.
You are genuinely lucky. The other messages in this thread demonstrate that excessive shouting is on the rise. Indeed, I started it because I was so surprised that there was such shouting happening at Leeds, which I had never previously experienced.
The last time I shouted like that at Leeds - (and for the second time in my career, if that's of interest) was last Friday evening, when a male person decided to run up to the train as it was about to depart and started licking the window next to where his mates were sat. For fun, obviously.
For context, I'm a Guard, and my head was sticking out of the cab window, ready to give 2 to depart.
If anyone shouts an instruction at you, follow it. And follow it IMMEDIATELY.
If you don't agree with the instruction, raise it separately after the event. And if it truly was a silly, unnecessary 'shout' - keep raising it until you get things changed.
BUT:
Do not ignore the shouted instruction at the time it is given.
It could be the difference between life and death.
YOUR life. YOUR death.
You, as the person being shouted at, are not, sadly, qualified to judge.
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