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How long could old DMU stock keep rolling?

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61653 HTAFC

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Are there any considerations about aluminium fatigue life
Less so than planes as "pressure cycles" aren't really a thing for terrestrial vehicles... though I recall reading that the class 107s were hastily withdrawn when it was discovered that the structural integrity of the bodyshells had deteriorated significantly. Though I believe it was the welds rather than the aluminium itself that were the source of the problem.
 
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reddragon

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Everything bar the bodyshell is replaceable as re-used D78s have shown.

Some trains, 1938 stock / class 483, preserved stock, IOM trams etc seem to go on forever but with lighter duties.

Or you have the ultimate triggers broom - Southern Electric EMUs. LH coaches converted into EMUs. Over their life most equipment, bogies, underframes & bodies were replaced.

The class 158 will need to adapt to survive. It can be refurbished or refitted, components replaced and even converted to a battery unit. At some point that becomes uneconomical or it's use ends for a new train.
 

Towers

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Everything bar the bodyshell is replaceable as re-used D78s have shown.

Some trains, 1938 stock / class 483, preserved stock, IOM trams etc seem to go on forever but with lighter duties.

Or you have the ultimate triggers broom - Southern Electric EMUs. LH coaches converted into EMUs. Over their life most equipment, bogies, underframes & bodies were replaced.

The class 158 will need to adapt to survive. It can be refurbished or refitted, components replaced and even converted to a battery unit. At some point that becomes uneconomical or it's use ends for a new train.
Rather unlikely, one would think, that they’ll see battery conversion at this stage in their lives - although, from a personal perspective, they’d get my vote every time! Another 40ish years of smooth riding and proper seats sounds just grand, although it’d be nice if we could have decent aircon :)

But on a serious note something will be ordered, somewhen, to replace them. Until then, the depots will have to continue to adapt, produce or otherwise procure obselete parts or suitable substitutes and generally nurse them into their old age, until we eventually enter another round of ‘how long does it take to get a new train fleet to work properly’ shennanigans!
 

Snow1964

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The industry will be watching the class 230 Ealing, Merseyside, the Dublin Alstom X'Trapolis low level and other battery running trains if more battery power (and low level doors) will be viable in the new UK tenders.
Hydrogen/battery is still a possibility with Porterbrook still testing it.

No doubt SWR will do tests fitting batteries to 450s to see if they could replace 158s, but the 158s still have several years left.

Interestingly some trains in Bavaria which were to be hydrogen and battery, have just been changed to battery electric. Seems in 2 years battery technology has advanced, and now it is cheaper to put in couple of short bits of extra electrification to allow charging at far terminus etc, than to install all the hydrogen refuelling equipment.

However, recent studies have shown that hydrogen is no longer necessary. Advances in battery technology mean that trains can charge their batteries via overhead lines at terminals, sufficient even for stretches exceeding 100 kilometers, like Hof to Nuremberg, without needing mid-journey charging.

In northeastern Bavaria, minimal railway network adjustments are required, according to the transport ministry. Bayreuth and Neustadt an der Waldnaab stations need charging facilities, and certain tracks at Nuremberg Central Station require enhanced overhead lines. Additionally, trains ending in Marktredwitz must charge in Cheb, Czech Republic, or Hof until electrification from Hof to Marktredwitz is complete. Similar battery-electric tilt train models will operate in Swabia and northeastern Bavaria. Presently, tilting trains account for around ten percent of regional train operations in Bavaria, primarily in Franconia and Swabia.

 

HSTEd

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Interestingly some trains in Bavaria which were to be hydrogen and battery, have just been changed to battery electric. Seems in 2 years battery technology has advanced, and now it is cheaper to put in couple of short bits of extra electrification to allow charging at far terminus etc, than to install all the hydrogen refuelling equipment.



On this basis, I can't think of many diagrams that cannot be achieved with battery units in the UK, as things stand.

And even the handful of problematic routes would require only a comparatively small quantity of electrification to overcome the issue.
 

reddragon

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We now have long haul HGVs beginning to appear across Europe doing the same job as diesel HGVs, really took off last year.

This Bloomberg report states Electric trucks will exceed diesel by 2030, but that was last July.


Manufacturers now expect electric HGVs to exceed diesel sales in 2028.

This really gives an indication as the the pace of technological change & cost reduction. This will impact on battery trains very quickly as the battery pods & charging systems (CCS, OLE and induction) will easily fit under a train.
 

Mikey C

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Wrightbus are actively developing a hydrogen coach, so they clearly feel that hydrogen has a role for longer road journeys.
 

reddragon

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Wrightbus are actively developing a hydrogen coach, so they clearly feel that hydrogen has a role for longer road journeys.
That's one vehicle I certainly would never travel on!

These H2 projects are externally funded & driven by the oil & gas industry. Wrightbus are just going along with the investment opportunity like the rail industry are.

It is unlikely to work and will never be financially viable (as confirmed by 60+ independent studies!)
 

HSTEd

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Wrightbus are actively developing a hydrogen coach, so they clearly feel that hydrogen has a role for longer road journeys.
A cynic might suggeest that that has been more by a realisation that they have no chance against the likes of Yutong in the electric coach market than by a belief in the technology.

Yutong coaches, supposedly, achieve ranges on order of 350 miles already.
 

reddragon

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A cynic might suggest that that has been more by a realisation that they have no chance against the likes of Yutong in the electric coach market than by a belief in the technology.

Yutong coaches, supposedly, achieve ranges on order of 350 miles already.
This youtube channel "The Electric Trucker" is by a German HGV driver travelling on normal daily HGV runs across Germany at first, then further afield as the business learns the game.


He talks of lower fuel costs, easier driving and lower maintenance down time. Later on the benefits of hill climbing become clear as he does 80+ km/h past trucks doing 20-30 km/h on hills. It's all dubbed in English too.

Quite nerdy on data & systems for day to day operations, but this is exactly how the railway plus buses/coaches operate.
 

Technologist

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Interestingly some trains in Bavaria which were to be hydrogen and battery, have just been changed to battery electric. Seems in 2 years battery technology has advanced, and now it is cheaper to put in couple of short bits of extra electrification to allow charging at far terminus etc, than to install all the hydrogen refuelling equipment.

I don't think battery technology has improved significantly in the last 2 years, its more like the policy making areas have finally properly evaluated hydrogen and realised what anyone who knows thermodynamics and engineering does which is that hydrogen doesn't make sense at all.

The penny finally dropped when decision makers started either owning or riding in EVs.

There is a pretty good argument that a lot of the hydrogen buzz was ultimately funded by oil and gas people who just wanted to sweat their existing assets a bit longer. As of about 2 years ago plenty of the bodies were indorsing putting hydrogen in the gas supply. IMechE should really hang their heads in shame, on hydrogen and hybrid cars vs full EVs they have been basically wrong and not just wrong but one of the last people to change their minds (if they aren't still advocating it for lorries).

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A cynic might suggeest that that has been more by a realisation that they have no chance against the likes of Yutong in the electric coach market than by a belief in the technology.

Yutong coaches, supposedly, achieve ranges on order of 350 miles already.

Yep, there are hundreds of thousands of fully electric buses in China and they have been operating for years at higher uptimes than diesels.
The same is true for JCB and hydrogen powered diggers. Their arguments are laughable there; basically the same ones used against EVs which was to define an absolute edge case (I must start every day with an empty tank fill it up and drive 600 miles without stopping for a pee!) as a typical usage and then declare if an EV can't do that we must use hydrogen.

In practice a cursory look at construction shows that most site based plant is stationary most of the time, diesel driven hydraulic pumps are incredibly inefficient and that it's not the hardest thing in the world to make the first site task running a power supply to it (or bring a big battery). In the case of really high utilisation stuff like mining equipment a lot of the kit already is electric and supplied by cable.
 
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reddragon

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Imagine the public response to a big hydrogen tank and regular deliveries at West Ealing! (Reading Depot is also surrounded by housing, so no luck there either.)

Nobody (as far as I know) complained about a new grid connection to a small battery.
 

Technologist

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On this basis, I can't think of many diagrams that cannot be achieved with battery units in the UK, as things stand.

And even the handful of problematic routes would require only a comparatively small quantity of electrification to overcome the issue.

I did TPE with a hypothetical fully battery class800 last year and worked out you could do Penzance to Aberdeen cross country the same way. You'd need new trains, but you don't need new technology and this stuffs only getting better.

 

61653 HTAFC

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Imagine the public response to a big hydrogen tank and regular deliveries at West Ealing! (Reading Depot is also surrounded by housing, so no luck there either.)

Nobody (as far as I know) complained about a new grid connection to a small battery.
Why would that be any worse than say, fuel deliveries to their local service station? It's just a tanker full of stuff being handled by people who are trained to do so safely.
 

Invincible

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Filling up a car with petrol you could get by with smoking a cigarette, but not recommended. Hydrogen should be safe if all precautions are taken, many remember hearing about the Heidelberg Airship explosion, some may not?. The Government have cut back of future use of hydrogen heating boilers in houses in favour of heat pumps.
The Porterbrook Hydroflex train will be at the Derby rail 200 event in August, presumably running in Hydrogen?.
"Hydrogen Power Class 799 Hydroflex No. 799201 – courtesy of Porterbrook"
 
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Grumpy

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Think the aluminium on trains and say land rovers last a lot longer than the lighter aircraft structures.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Plenty of 50+year old light aircraft knocking around
 

reddragon

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Why would that be any worse than say, fuel deliveries to their local service station? It's just a tanker full of stuff being handled by people who are trained to do so safely.
Diesel is easily contained, stinks and hard to ignite - all the diesel car fires are electrical that use this extreme heat to ignite the fuel tank.
Petrol is a lot more volatile, is easily contained & has a strong smell but is easy to ignite.
Methane (natural) Gas is easy to contain, smells and is easy to ignite.

People know these fuels.

Hydrogen is impossible to contain, is very volatile, no smell and can ignite all by itself. It's VERY low energy density also requires 5x the number of deliveries and has VERY expensive dispensing stations costing £millions each

People think Hindenburg. Boom!

A grid connection / charger are quite cheap compared to any other energy source to install.
 

Trainbike46

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Diesel is easily contained, stinks and hard to ignite - all the diesel car fires are electrical that use this extreme heat to ignite the fuel tank.
Petrol is a lot more volatile, is easily contained & has a strong smell but is easy to ignite.
Methane (natural) Gas is easy to contain, smells and is easy to ignite.

People know these fuels.

Hydrogen is impossible to contain, is very volatile, no smell and can ignite all by itself. It's VERY low energy density also requires 5x the number of deliveries and has VERY expensive dispensing stations costing £millions each

People think Hindenburg. Boom!

A grid connection / charger are quite cheap compared to any other energy source to install.
Methane does not itself have a smell - the gas smell is artificially added for safety reasons. Presumably the same would be done with hydrogen.

However, I do agree that battery electric has overtaken hydrogen for the vast majority of transport purposes - and that hydrogen was always an insane proposition for home heating, given that heat pumps and simple resistive electric (storage) heaters exist.

Bringing this back towards the DMUs - the oldest/worst DMUs should be replaced with new BEMUs, and the remaining DMUs can then be used on those routes where BEMUs aren't viable yet, for example because some more electrification needs to be installed.
 

Snow1964

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Bringing this back towards the DMUs - the oldest/worst DMUs should be replaced with new BEMUs, and the remaining DMUs can then be used on those routes where BEMUs aren't viable yet, for example because some more electrification needs to be installed.
In a logical world I agree, how many of the new DMUs are operating on lines partly electrified.

There are plenty of middle age (17x DMUs) that are also working part electrified routes (and some routes have multiple electrified sections scattered along their length), these should be tackled as a second batch in 2030s

A sensible national policy would defer the problem of what to do with the more remote areas (South West, West Wales, Scotland away from central belt, bits of Eastern England etc) which could continue with existing diesel stock until 2050s by which time new solutions might exist.
 

brad465

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Assuming both GWR and Northern's upcoming orders are approved with massive fleets that include a large array of BEMUs, this will probably usher in the death knell for DMUs. Their large orders would scale up production significantly, paving the way for other operators to get BEMUs more easily.
 

Invincible

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In a logical world I agree, how many of the new DMUs are operating on lines partly electrified.

There are plenty of middle age (17x DMUs) that are also working part electrified routes (and some routes have multiple electrified sections scattered along their length), these should be tackled as a second batch in 2030s

A sensible national policy would defer the problem of what to do with the more remote areas (South West, West Wales, Scotland away from central belt, bits of Eastern England etc) which could continue with existing diesel stock until 2050s by which time new solutions might exist.
That was the plan with the 769s but did not work well on the Reading to Gatwick line and have been scrapped
Porterbrook are still hoping the 799 hydrogen/ battery solution will work and why it will be at Derby.
But does look like new orders will have battery fast charge, perhaps with a diesel as a backup/ range extender (like the new London taxis).
 

Mikey C

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Diesel is easily contained, stinks and hard to ignite - all the diesel car fires are electrical that use this extreme heat to ignite the fuel tank.
Petrol is a lot more volatile, is easily contained & has a strong smell but is easy to ignite.
Methane (natural) Gas is easy to contain, smells and is easy to ignite.

People know these fuels.

Hydrogen is impossible to contain, is very volatile, no smell and can ignite all by itself. It's VERY low energy density also requires 5x the number of deliveries and has VERY expensive dispensing stations costing £millions each

People think Hindenburg. Boom!

A grid connection / charger are quite cheap compared to any other energy source to install.
Hydrogen will never be a mass market fuel for public consumption, but it's perfectly affordable and safe for mass transit use, where refuelling is done in a professional environment where the costs of the stations are spread over a large fleet. London has had a small number of hydrogen buses operating for years.

Which isn't to say that it's a better option than battery, but to point out that it's not a completely concept.
 

Mag_seven

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Just a gentle reminder that this thread is about the longevity of old DMUs. If anyone wants to discuss anything else such as different types of fuel etc then they should start a new thread.

thanks
 

Invincible

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Hydrogen will never be a mass market fuel for public consumption, but it's perfectly affordable and safe for mass transit use, where refuelling is done in a professional environment where the costs of the stations are spread over a large fleet. London has had a small number of hydrogen buses operating for years.

Which isn't to say that it's a better option than battery, but to point out that it's not a completely concept.
The 20 hydrogen buses in London and 15 in Aberdeen have been working well low key for the past 4 years.
But the larger scale hydrogen trains in Germany have been problematic.
Interesting the hydrogen Vivaro van has been reduced in price, but still more expensive than the equivalent battery version.
So although hydrogen power is still to be used, new battery technology wins on reliability and cost.
No doubt there will be discussions at the Greatest Gathering in Derby in August over Porterbrook's 799 hydrogen/battery from 319 EMU conversion.
There are still lots of class 319, 321 and D78 EMU body shells which could be converted into fast charge battery trains.
Or is it better long term to have new purpose built battery trains rather than convertible older EMUs?
 
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Mikey C

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Back on topic ( :D ), isn't a problem with modern diesel engines, that they're massively more complicated and bulkier (due to all the extra technology fitted) so the option of a reengine is much harder than it was before.

For example stock like the 158s and 165s, and even the Turbostars, could give more efficient and cleaner running for another 10-20 years (until all diesels are outlawed) with modern engines of the same generation as the recent CAF stock, but it would be a really hard conversion.
 

Invincible

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Back on topic ( :D ), isn't a problem with modern diesel engines, that they're massively more complicated and bulkier (due to all the extra technology fitted) so the option of a reengine is much harder than it was before.

For example stock like the 158s and 165s, and even the Turbostars, could give more efficient and cleaner running for another 10-20 years (until all diesels are outlawed) with modern engines of the same generation as the recent CAF stock, but it would be a really hard conversion.
Same with the 170s being reintroduced by GWR, but there is no rush to currently make diesels more clean before the 2040 target (or whatever it is now?). Perhaps going to cleaner diesel fuel alternatives might be easier?.
Still worth testing, and updating, hybrid, battery and hydrogen technology alternative platforms on on old class 799 and 230s, and similar units.
 

Wolfie

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I came across a comment on Reddit by someone who said the 158s really only have about 5 years of use left in them due to their age. That felt wrong to me, so I thought I'd ask a more expert audience.

My thoughts had been that they could probably be kept running for as long as operators wanted, subject to a willingness to fund periodic refurbishments and perhaps a mechanical overhaul. There appears to be no shortage of parts, and I recall seeing a post by someone saying that parts are still widely available as there is nothing too unusual used in the construction.

Added to this, they seem to still be reliable (including when compared to newer stock) and we aren't seeing any being pulled out of use to cannibalise for parts.

Northern are keen to replace them and the 150s to simplify stock, but would it be feasible for certain Northern depots to run exclusively off the UK-wide stock of 158s (and 159s)? That strikes me as both an economical measure and one that would be quite popular with commuters.

Over to you, and thank you in advance for the input.
Bodywork corrosion seems to be a major issue - perhaps less so with the 158s as they are aluminium.
 

AndrewE

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I don't think battery technology has improved significantly in the last 2 years, its more like the policy making areas have finally properly evaluated hydrogen and realised what anyone who knows thermodynamics and engineering does which is that hydrogen doesn't make sense at all.

The penny finally dropped when decision makers started either owning or riding in EVs.
that's not what Janus trucks say.
I think he says battery capacity has doubled recently and he is expecting it to go up and up again in the next few years - requiring just software tweaks on the converted trucks. 5 mins 20 sec into the video... They look unbeatable to me.

Their first USP is that they re-engine trucks with replacement electric motors designed to be drop-in replacements for comon ICEs. I don't know whether this would prevent the application of this approach to an EMU because the traction motors are a given, but I suspect that a diesel mechanical or diesel hydraulic DMU might be suited to it. The second USP (if you can have 2!) is that battery changes are quicker and cleaner than putting 1000l of diesel into a truck - which again isn't really applicable to the rail situation.

(One of the previous videos said they keep but refurbish the gearboxes as trucks have such a huge starting torque requirement that electronic control of the motor can't manage it alone - again, I suspect not really relevant to rail.)
 

43096

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Back on topic ( :D ), isn't a problem with modern diesel engines, that they're massively more complicated and bulkier (due to all the extra technology fitted) so the option of a reengine is much harder than it was before.
Many North American railroads have stopped buying new locos that are Tier 4 emissions compliant because they cost more to buy, are more complex and use more fuel.

So the lower emissions requirements have the opposite effect as instead they re-engineer 1990s era locos, retaining their original engines but with improved fuel economy.
 
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