Cable theft at Bolton 28 December 2024

[sp2113]

Are the feeder cables for these sorts of installations copper or aluminium?

On the other hand.... might be worth talking about going back to AWAC conductor wire.....

They are typically 400mm2 Cu/XLPE/Cu/MDPE cables from Eland cables

 

[Harpo]

Instead it has to be recycled as metal scrap, which means machinery to process it (removing insulation)

In legit territory, yes. In scrote territory, burn it off.

 

[philthetube]

I do think that any scrapyard involved in this should be stripped of everything inside the boundary fence, even down to the kettles.

 

[Winthorpe]

It’s a pity some security guards weren’t put there. Hard to guard OHLE over many miles. But at a fixed site, the feeder site, it’s easier.

Hindsight and all that…

 

[Meerkat]

I'm sure there is a black market, but it is a bit more complex for most cable. By the time it has been stolen, it is more or less useless as cable (and I don't think Network Rail are desperate enough to be be buying it back on the dark side, so who else would it be sold to?). Instead it has to be recycled as metal scrap, which means machinery to process it (removing insulation) and ultimately a route back into the supply chain. Or maybe (like everything else we don't want, and quite a few stolen cars) it gets exported now? If it is being processed in the UK, it should be reasonably hard to hide a factory of any any scale (with associated workforce, buildings, energy supply ...) - assuming the resources exist to go looking for it.

Huge amounts of cable must go to recycling so I would have thought there were plenty of places that can deal with it. Or maybe it goes through a chain of dealers so the one most likely to be checked (the processor) has the paperwork and is separated from the thieves (laundered cable!).
I assume there is also a burden of proof issue - unless there is a crime of failing to prove where scrap comes from (and how would you do that?) to prosecute you would need to prove a particular bit of cable came from a particular source.
Is anyone ever prosecuted without a tip off and stake out to catch them in the act? Offering rewards would probably be the cheapest way of combatting the issue.

 

[Chriso]

Unfortunately I’m sure no lessons will be learnt. Pleased the electrics were running the day after

 

[RichardAsh1981]

I assume there is also a burden of proof issue - unless there is a crime of failing to prove where scrap comes from (and how would you do that?) to prosecute you would need to prove a particular bit of cable came from a particular source.

In the electricity industry lots of things have been tried, but the main success I am aware of is:

• All conductors being marked with the owning company name, prominently embossed at regular intervals along the material, so the origin is clear.
• A single recycling contractor engaged (or maybe split between two) for that owner, who takes all the material (via a competitive tender). Staff barred from disposing of material to any other recycler outside of this contract.
• Any material with that name on that shows up at any other recycler therefore has no provenance, and the recycler can be responsible ("don't buy our stuff" information having been distributed to all other licensed recyclers in the relevant areas).

Is the railway suffering from not buying enough (volume) to be able to require it all to be marked "Network Rail" or is this another industry fragmentation issue?

 

[Hellzapoppin]

All newer signalling, telecom and D and P cables are marked with Network Rail and the type of cable. A few years ago I was helping BTP with a "sting" operation and we did find older but still marked cable in a scrap yard. So no, not a fragmentation issue.

 

[Meerkat]

Any material with that name on that shows up at any other recycler therefore has no provenance, and the recycler can be responsible ("don't buy our stuff" information having been distributed to all other licensed recyclers in the relevant areas).

But isn't the burden of proof on the prosecution to prove where it came from and that it was obtained illegally - can you get a conviction based on "you can't obtain it legally"?
Or can scrappers lose some kind of licence to operate and get closed down?
And of course this relies on someone finding the stuff at the scrapyard before it gets moved on or melted down.

 

[Gostav]

I'm sure there is a black market, but it is a bit more complex for most cable. By the time it has been stolen, it is more or less useless as cable (and I don't think Network Rail are desperate enough to be be buying it back on the dark side, so who else would it be sold to?). Instead it has to be recycled as metal scrap, which means machinery to process it (removing insulation) and ultimately a route back into the supply chain. Or maybe (like everything else we don't want, and quite a few stolen cars) it gets exported now? If it is being processed in the UK, it should be reasonably hard to hide a factory of any any scale (with associated workforce, buildings, energy supply ...) - assuming the resources exist to go looking for it.

Just in Bolton, there are many forest where l can found fragments of cable insulation on the ground (and some forests are just a kind of garbage dump).
I taken this photo in 2022

 

[Towers]

But isn't the burden of proof on the prosecution to prove where it came from and that it was obtained illegally - can you get a conviction based on "you can't obtain it legally"?
Or can scrappers lose some kind of licence to operate and get closed down?
And of course this relies on someone finding the stuff at the scrapyard before it gets moved on or melted down.

One would assume the scrap merchant would be compelled to produce the legally required purchase evidence, and offences would follow when it inevitably didn’t exist?

 

[IanXC]

There was a significant reduction in metals theft (which also affects the electricity transmission/distribution industry, church roofs ...) a number of years ago when all scrap metal dealers were obliged to make payments via a traceable system (cheque / BACS), because investigators could follow the money. The problem is now getting worse again, so either the value of scrap metal has gone up (relative to other things which could be stolen), or ways round the payment rules have been found.

I wonder if this is partly an indirect consequence of better security in other fields, e.g. stealing and selling cars is now a lot harder as many of the high value ones are GPS tracked in real time ...

It is also possible that increasingly payments can be made via the mandated systems, but that the criminals can get away with the money anyway.

To my knowledge the figures that we're after aren't really available publicly, but there are published figures for "Value of APP scams received per £ million of transactions Non-directed PSPs", which is essentially people being scammed (via Authorised Push Payment) to send their money to a small financial institution. So the scammer must expect to be able to then pass the payment on to somewhere else, presumably the same logic would apply to a criminal selling scrap metal to a scrap dealer - the dealer makes the required payment type, but the thief gets away with the money anyway.

Latest figures are 2023, where at "Skrill" £18,550 of every £1m received in payments to them, were APP fraud.

APP fraud performance data

In a significant step towards greater transparency, the PSR publishes annual data on payment firms’ APP scam performance.

www.psr.org.uk

 

[Merle Haggard]

There was a significant reduction in metals theft (which also affects the electricity transmission/distribution industry, church roofs ...) a number of years ago when all scrap metal dealers were obliged to make payments via a traceable system (cheque / BACS), because investigators could follow the money. The problem is now getting worse again, so either the value of scrap metal has gone up (relative to other things which could be stolen), or ways round the payment rules have been found.

I wonder if this is partly an indirect consequence of better security in other fields, e.g. stealing and selling cars is now a lot harder as many of the high value ones are GPS tracked in real time ...

One enterprising (???) Northampton scrap dealer conformed to the rules by offering payment only by cheque, but offered an on-site cheque cashing service. There may have been commission involved. Certainly seemed to be a flaw in the legislation - presumably cheques so 'cashed' did not ever enter the banking system.

 

[choo.choo]

One enterprising (???) Northampton scrap dealer conformed to the rules by offering payment only by cheque, but offered an on-site cheque cashing service. There may have been commission involved. Certainly seemed to be a flaw in the legislation - presumably cheques so 'cashed' did not ever enter the banking system.

I’ve seen adverts online for a kind of scrap metal debit card which IIRC only supported receiving payments from a scrap metal dealer and withdrawing cash, presumably with scrap metal dealerships having handy ATMs. But I assume that would still need to be linked to your identity in some way.

 

[Prime586]

Why does metal theft seem to happen a lot more in the midlands & north of England? Don’t seem to hear so much of an issue elsewhere in the UK.

It happens all over the place - there was a mostly Essex-based gang prosecuted last year who had stolen miles of BT Openreach phone cables from the ducts in Cambridgeshire, Essex, Suffolk and Wrexham.

One thing Openreach have in common with NR is that the field staff are mostly contractors (as BT laid off almost all their field staff in the 00s as an 'easy win' to keep the stock market happy). Hiring any Tom, Dick and Harry with a fleet of white vans to do broadband installations drastically increases the possibility of information about the contents of the ducts being passed on to 'mates' for a cut of the proceeds.

 

[endecotp]

But isn't the burden of proof on the prosecution to prove where it came from and that it was obtained illegally - can you get a conviction based on "you can't obtain it legally"?
Or can scrappers lose some kind of licence to operate and get closed down?
And of course this relies on someone finding the stuff at the scrapyard before it gets moved on or melted down.

The relevant legislation is the "Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013":

Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013

An Act to amend the law relating to scrap metal dealers; and for connected purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Re your last point, it is possible for licences to include a condition that received scrap must be kept in its as-received condition for 72 hours.

 

[Towers]

The relevant legislation is the "Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013":

Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013

An Act to amend the law relating to scrap metal dealers; and for connected purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Re your last point, it is possible for licences to include a condition that received scrap must be kept in its as-received condition for 72 hours.

Again though, it’s meaningless if a dealer chooses not to comply, which of course is the point!

 

[Meerkat]

The relevant legislation is the "Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013":

Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013

An Act to amend the law relating to scrap metal dealers; and for connected purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Re your last point, it is possible for licences to include a condition that received scrap must be kept in its as-received condition for 72 hours.

I read the summary here

https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/get-act-scrap-metal-deale-81c.pdf

I dont see any requirement to have proof of source other than details of the person who delivered it.
And I’m still unsure of the burden of proof. Is it beyond reasonable doubt that you stole the load of Network Rail cable in the back of your Transit, just because Network Rail allege that they control disposal, and have done since the markings were used?

 

[endecotp]

I read the summary here

https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/get-act-scrap-metal-deale-81c.pdf

I dont see any requirement to have proof of source other than details of the person who delivered it.
And I’m still unsure of the burden of proof. Is it beyond reasonable doubt that you stole the load of Network Rail cable in the back of your Transit, just because Network Rail allege that they control disposal, and have done since the markings were used?

The dealer isn't required to have "proof" of the source, but they are required to record "the description of the metal, including its type (or types if mixed), form, condition, weight and any marks identifying previous owners or other distinguishing features".

Re burden of proof, are you asking about the thief or the dealer?

 

[Meerkat]

The dealer isn't required to have "proof" of the source, but they are required to record "the description of the metal, including its type (or types if mixed), form, condition, weight and any marks identifying previous owners or other distinguishing features".

Re burden of proof, are you asking about the thief or the dealer?

Thief - the dealer just points the finger at the thief

 

[endecotp]

Thief

So the burden of proof is the same as any other case of theft; there's nothing special about it being scrap metal.

 

[Meole]

Why the fuss, no one is harmed, the metal is recycled which in itself provides employment, we accept theft from supermarkets as a norm and factor in the cost, surely the same should apply here. A friend who works for BT on cabling says that a day off with pay after a cable theft stops work is always welcome, although that will cease in March when he takes an incredibly generous package.

 

[43066]

Why the fuss, no one is harmed, the metal is recycled which in itself provides employment, we accept theft from supermarkets as a norm and factor in the cost, surely the same should apply here. A friend who works for BT on cabling says that a day off with pay after a cable theft stops work is always welcome, although that will cease in March when he takes an incredibly generous package.

And of course a day sitting spare because trains are cancelled is welcome to those drivers and guards affected. That narrow perspective isn’t much help to anyone else, though!

The “fuss” is because this sort of criminality disrupts vital infrastructure, causing massive inconvenience and incurring significant repair costs, which the taxpayer ultimately has to cover.

 

[Meerkat]

So the burden of proof is the same as any other case of theft; there's nothing special about it being scrap metal.

That’s a bad thing, as it’s pretty hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
See Harry Redknapp’s tax case, or when I worked in retail the plod found a cupboard full of hoovers in a loading bay manager’s cupboard at home but because they couldn’t prove individual serial numbers were the ones nicked from work they had to give them back!

 

[43066]

or when I worked in retail the plod found a cupboard full of hoovers in a loading bay manager’s cupboard at home but because they couldn’t prove individual serial numbers were the ones nicked from work they had to give them back!

Although that should have been plenty to prove a gross misconduct charge at work (balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt), likely resulting in summary dismissal.

 

[endecotp]

That’s a bad thing, as it’s pretty hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

No, that's a good thing, as we've seen plenty of people spending time in prison for crimes they didn't commit (sub-postmasters, for example).

 

[800001]

Why the fuss, no one is harmed, the metal is recycled which in itself provides employment, we accept theft from supermarkets as a norm and factor in the cost, surely the same should apply here. A friend who works for BT on cabling says that a day off with pay after a cable theft stops work is always welcome, although that will cease in March when he takes an incredibly generous package.

Would you have this opinion if someone stole your car, or burgled your house?

Ultimately theft of railway equipment comes back to us, the taxpayer, through higher taxes and higher rail fares!

 

[Blackpool boy]

Why the fuss, no one is harmed, the metal is recycled which in itself provides employment, we accept theft from supermarkets as a norm and factor in the cost, surely the same should apply here.

What a bonkers statement - it keeps people employed

 

[Harpo]

we accept theft from supermarkets as a norm and factor in the cost

Maybe you meant ‘we know’? No theft can ever be acceptable or subject to zero police action which certainly appears to be a norm.

 

[HSTEd]

They are typically 400mm2 Cu/XLPE/Cu/MDPE cables from Eland cables

I must admit I am suprised that copper cables are still in use on the railway, given the endless thefts